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      04-26-2012, 10:07 AM   #199
micknugget
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
I am very much opposed to autostart stop, and electric steering, I do believe that we should try to conserve resources and lower emissions wherever possible.

I also believe that there are other ways to achieve the gains made by autostart stop and electric steering that BMW has chosen to ignore, possibly for marketing reasons, and partially perhaps out of laziness.

Instead of a 2.0L turbo, it could be a 1.9L turbo, and maybe raise the boost a little bit, and that might equal to 3% gain of auto start stop without interfering with the refinement of the vehicle. And yes the car shuttering to a stop and shuttering to a start at every friggin stop sign, destroys the refinement of a premium automobile.

First, the electric steering will become the norm in most cars. It does save fuel but it also saps less power from the engine (= better performance), is less expensive, takes up less room in the engine compartment, and is cheaper/easier to replace.

Second, I think that if BMW went smaller than a 2.0, they would catch a ton of grief for having a smaller engine than all of their main rivals. BMW is already dealing with the grief of going for the 6 to the turbo 4.

Third, the shutter problem is only on start, not when stopping. Also if you do rolling stops or a quick stop (letting up on the brake immediately upon coming to a complete stop) the system doesn't even engage.
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      04-26-2012, 10:59 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micknugget
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
I am very much opposed to autostart stop, and electric steering, I do believe that we should try to conserve resources and lower emissions wherever possible.

I also believe that there are other ways to achieve the gains made by autostart stop and electric steering that BMW has chosen to ignore, possibly for marketing reasons, and partially perhaps out of laziness.

Instead of a 2.0L turbo, it could be a 1.9L turbo, and maybe raise the boost a little bit, and that might equal to 3% gain of auto start stop without interfering with the refinement of the vehicle. And yes the car shuttering to a stop and shuttering to a start at every friggin stop sign, destroys the refinement of a premium automobile.

First, the electric steering will become the norm in most cars. It does save fuel but it also saps less power from the engine (= better performance), is less expensive, takes up less room in the engine compartment, and is cheaper/easier to replace.

Second, I think that if BMW went smaller than a 2.0, they would catch a ton of grief for having a smaller engine than all of their main rivals. BMW is already dealing with the grief of going for the 6 to the turbo 4.

Third, the shutter problem is only on start, not when stopping. Also if you do rolling stops or a quick stop (letting up on the brake immediately upon coming to a complete stop) the system doesn't even engage.
I'm not sure that see it the same. If there was better performance with electric steering then why is the F30 335 no faster, and possibly slower than the E90 335.

They're already catching flack for having 2.0L, so that stays the same. All they've done is increase the flack by adding oddities like electric steering and start/ stop.

Beautiful steering feel differentiated BMW from the rest. With now gone there is reason to not jump ship as I plan to do. No fan boy here even after owning 5 straight BMWs.
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      04-27-2012, 07:24 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
I'm not sure that see it the same. If there was better performance with electric steering then why is the F30 335 no faster, and possibly slower than the E90 335.
It's basic engineering. The pump for the hydraulic power steering is run by a belt off of the engine. It creates a load, albeit small on the engine. It does not have nearly the same impact as say a belt driven A/C compressor but it does have an impact.

The best example I can give you is if you take an older car and turn the steering wheel all the way to one side you can watch the load increase on the engine as the RPMs drop.

As for why the F30 335 isnt any faster, that could be because of all kinds of different things.
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      04-27-2012, 07:26 AM   #202
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BMW can easily modify steering feel with software changes. The rack and pinion is essentially the same. If the boost is decreased and the sensitivity to when it activates decreased there will be more feedback to the driver.

The challenge for BMW is keeping the enthusiast happy while not alienating the bread and butter market.
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      04-27-2012, 08:03 AM   #203
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Back on topic, my auto start-stop stalled today but it was entirely my fault.

I have a manual 118D and I lifted the clutch too soon after the engine restarted, causing the engine to stall. As soon as I pushed the clutch down again though the engine restarted again all of its own accord. I thought it was rather clever that I didn't have to intervene at all.

Which further indicates that there's an issue with the system's impementation on at least some F30s if the system is stalling, especially on autos, as it works fine on other models.
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      04-27-2012, 11:39 AM   #204
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Havnt had any stalling issues on the auto yet. It's noticeable at first, and is annoying at every light. It will take some getting used too and honestly doesn't Bother me yet.
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      04-27-2012, 04:01 PM   #205
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I couldn't get the test car to do the start/stop nonsense...I think it's b/c I drove it like it was stolen...or it may have been too warm...it usually is here. (this makes me happy)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
I'm not sure that see it the same. If there was better performance with electric steering then why is the F30 335 no faster, and possibly slower than the E90 335.

They're already catching flack for having 2.0L, so that stays the same. All they've done is increase the flack by adding oddities like electric steering and start/ stop.

Beautiful steering feel differentiated BMW from the rest. With now gone there is reason to not jump ship as I plan to do. No fan boy here even after owning 5 straight BMWs.
I'd need to see actual data to show it's slower than the E90 335i - Why? well logic would make one think the opposite is true (less weight, same power) obvious things like the transmission change and other small things could impact it either way (depending on implementation).

I was unaware BMW was catching flack....but I'm not shocked...as Americans are morons when it comes to cars (among other things). I doubt the rest of the world is shelling BMW...but again I was unaware anyone was so I could be wrong.

Have you driven an F30 w/ the sport steering? It's actually very very similar to an E90. I found it difficult to differentiate. The regular steering has had some complaints by "enthusiasts" but I would ask the obvious quesion of "why is an enthusiast not getting the sport steering?"

Also, Electric power steering by itself is not a bad thing (go drive a 991, or a new Boxster...the steering is phenominal, it too is electric power steering).

I prefer manual steering myself...but I understand that this isn't practical for 99% of cars. People seem to forget that BMW must appeal to more than those who consider themselves "Enthusiasts"...which again I can't say that all of them would qualify in my eyes...as they bought a car w/o sport steering. I'm not really disagreeing with you FWIW, I'm just playing the devils advocate...as changes are coming...we either need to adapt, or drive old cars.

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      04-27-2012, 05:36 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrcarcrazy View Post
People seem to forget that BMW must appeal to more than those who consider themselves "Enthusiasts"...which again I can't say that all of them would qualify in my eyes...as they bought a car w/o sport steering. I'm not really disagreeing with you FWIW, I'm just playing the devils advocate...as changes are coming...we either need to adapt, or drive old cars.
Similar thinking here as well. BMW have chosen to make the steering feel the way it is, to suit the bigger buying market, IMO. The complaints here in the UK have been steering is too heavy, etc., etc.

EPS is in itself a much more flexible system than the hydraulic system, can be tuned any which way, BMW are choosing the settings they want. Also allows for flexibility with sport settings for the 'average' sporty driver. And a specific sport steering option for the hard core enthusiast. Something for everyone in reality.

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      04-27-2012, 10:49 PM   #207
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I guess I have to rephrase a couple of things pardon me. The flack BMW is catching maybe isn't so much related to the 2.0L engine but it's more related to the four banger idea. Many people have been very clear that they could not shell out $50,000 for four banger.

If BMW actually is choosing to make their cars drive this way, that is very sad. They used to be so much better. At speed, I really could not tell the difference in the power steering either, the problem is more apparent in parking lots, driveways, and other slow driving situations, the steering feels very rubbery, and much like a front wheel drive car. It seems silly to put up with this just to save two drops of gas.

I'm done here, there's no need to fill this thread with my negativity any longer. I certainly hope I can find happiness C350 coupe. It's a wonderful car that is incredibly well-built, uses conventional tires, conventional steering, and doesn't have start stop.
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      05-01-2012, 09:48 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
I certainly hope I can find happiness C350 coupe. It's a wonderful car that is incredibly well-built, uses conventional tires, conventional steering, and doesn't have start stop.
For some reason I doubt it. But best of luck.
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      05-01-2012, 10:34 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraggy View Post
I guess I have to rephrase a couple of things pardon me. The flack BMW is catching maybe isn't so much related to the 2.0L engine but it's more related to the four banger idea. Many people have been very clear that they could not shell out $50,000 for four banger.

If BMW actually is choosing to make their cars drive this way, that is very sad. They used to be so much better. At speed, I really could not tell the difference in the power steering either, the problem is more apparent in parking lots, driveways, and other slow driving situations, the steering feels very rubbery, and much like a front wheel drive car. It seems silly to put up with this just to save two drops of gas.

I'm done here, there's no need to fill this thread with my negativity any longer. I certainly hope I can find happiness C350 coupe. It's a wonderful car that is incredibly well-built, uses conventional tires, conventional steering, and doesn't have start stop.
I doubt the Mercedes will drive as nicely as the 335 and certainly won't have a MT if that's what you desire. Also, it's a pretty good bet that the next gen C series will have EPS as will the next A4 Audi. Stop/start as well.
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      05-01-2012, 04:20 PM   #210
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And when any evidence or data is uncovered that goes against the Man made Global Warming scenario, they choose to keep it secret - a la Climategate.
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      05-01-2012, 04:22 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
That's not what he said and you know it. The point is we can't go on wasting resources like we have for the last century without consequences. Stop/start is one of the myriad devices that we need to use less fuel and of course part of BMW's Efficient Dynamics technology which is a response to CAFE and European standards.
You don't know what I know, so don't even go there. And please don't lecture us on saving resources - I don't think anyone is against saving/conserving natural resources. The issue is that one buys a 3er as an enthusiasts car, and things like ASS are in essence opposite to that concept. What is the next 'myriad device' you guys are going to defend on a 3er? CVT? I am sure if BMW had put a CVT in the 3er, you would have been defending it as well.
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      05-01-2012, 04:28 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
And when any evidence or data is uncovered that goes against the Man made Global Warming scenario, they choose to keep it secret - a la Climategate.
I really am tired of conspiracy theories that some parts of both sides of the political spectrum seem to love.

Regarding "climategate", you can't pick up on a few mistakes made by a few scientists and claim that it puts an entire scientific concept to doubt when the mistakes are insignficant against the mountain of other evidence. Can I suggest that you read a bit about the mistakes that were made and their true (in)signficance? The whole thing really isn't the smoking gun climate skeptics claim. http://mediamatters.org/research/200912010002

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      05-01-2012, 04:32 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
Global warming is fact - hardly any skeptics deny that any more, there's just too much evidence.

What the skeptics deny is that it's caused by human activity - which is why most people here, if not everyone, have been careful to only refer to global warming as being fact, and not anthropogenic global warming as being fact. The two are very different.

Don't get me wrong - as someone said there is a huge amount of evidence for anthropogenic global warming but I've had enough discussions with skeptics to know that it's just not worth going there.
Skeptics, or practical people? Not those that live in 15,000 sq foot homes and tell others to drive hybrids......Me reference was to man made global warming by the way. Global warming and global cooling are phenomenon that have been happening for millions of years, where there wasn't any trace of humans, and will continue to happen. Did you ever wonder how ice ages happened, and how the ice melted? Surely you didn't that that was due to heavy industrialization, right? And please don't point me to to another self serving 'study' as to why the ice melted after the ice ages - all made up theories cloaked as if in fact.

If there is data that contradicts their theories, they just keep it hidden. Initially what started as man made Global Warming, became Climate Change, because after some hotter than usual years, there were some colder than usual years...so to win arguments, in a 'heads I win, tails you lose' type of scenario, the name was changed to 'Climate Change'

In any case, my last post on warming/cooling or ASS - I have learnt long back it is hard to convince the global warming crowd any which way but theirs. So best of luck, and enjoy your ASS, CVT (when you get it in a BMW) etc. etc.
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      05-02-2012, 06:47 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuttlegoose View Post
Havnt had any stalling issues on the auto yet. It's noticeable at first, and is annoying at every light. It will take some getting used too and honestly doesn't Bother me yet.
It's actually not the shutting off that I find disconcerting, but rather the starting up. Depending on the conditions I hardly notice that it's shut off. There's a noticeable shudder when it starts up again though, and that can be jarring.
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      05-09-2012, 10:08 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci View Post
I'd like to know how the little boffins inside the ecu determine what "stop-and-go traffic" is. I now see where the money that used to be spent on refinements like painted shadowline trim and interior plastics has gone; stop-and-go algorithm development. I guess confusing that system could be a way to pass the time while sitting in LA traffic.
i just got my car couple days ago, and it seems like it doesn't shut off at each stop. say i start driving, initially it shuts off first few times, but then it doesn't shut off next few times?

is this normal given the parameters stated? is this due to stop and go traffic? or i have a faulty car? dunno if i should bring the car in to check...
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      05-09-2012, 10:12 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by shumv View Post
i just got my car couple days ago, and it seems like it doesn't shut off at each stop. say i start driving, initially it shuts off first few times, but then it doesn't shut off next few times?

is this normal given the parameters stated? is this due to stop and go traffic? or i have a faulty car? dunno if i should bring the car in to check...
There are things that you may do to prevent the car from shutting off. If you move the steering wheel or apply additional pressure to the brake upon stopping, the engine will not shut off. I have a bad habit of adjusting my foot on the brake as I am not used to driving an automatic.
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