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      02-01-2012, 12:28 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by gatoman39 View Post
My attitude is fine you are comparing sticks with automatics. N20 in a stick Z4's with auto Camry's and calling the Camry an engineering achievement. That's hyperbole. You said the 5-60 times in a Camry couldn't be touched YOU ARE WRONG.
You're embellishing and cherry picking the results you want to see. If one magazine says one thing and another says something else doesn't make your magazine right. Especially when insideline standardizes the test and mentions both TC on and off times and Car and driver mixes and matches and puts a foot note at the end. Like you they are cherry picking.
I am gonna have to go ahead and agree with Gatoman39. Saintor, calm the heck down buddy...I have seen you troll on the curb weight in one of the threads. I have nothing personal, but you seem to find some information and stick with it as if its absolutely true, but when someone else shows you conflicting information - with equal or higher credibility, mind you - you become a hypocrite. "bro" attitude doesn't work in technical discussion. Be humble and be ready to accept the difference of opinions...
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      02-01-2012, 09:17 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Nope that's true. The 328i N20, like the previous 328i N52, is unlikely to touch the Camry's 5-60mph in 6.1s.

Technically the Camry V6 posts better efficiency results than a N20 328i/Z4.

PS: I am still getting a F30 328i as my next car.
Can you quit trolling already?
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      02-01-2012, 11:34 AM   #113
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I addmittedly haven't been keeping up with every post in this thread, but I come in and find someone comparing the F30 328i to the Camry V6...really?? I don't care if the Camry is 5 seconds faster than the 328i in any acceleration test, it's still a POS Camry that has wet dreams of competing with BMW. Comparing it to any recent BMW is like comparing "Helga the troll" to a supermodel; i.e., if Helga was the last person on Earth, you might consider taking her as your wife, but you'd seriously consider dying alone with the hope that a supermodel might be found before you die.

P.S. Has anyone seen the newer Camry commercials with the F-22s in it? Does anyone relate any Toyota product to fighter jets, ever???
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      02-01-2012, 10:38 PM   #114
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Really? I think that OBJECTIVE people would appreciate this FACT;

BMW 328i 240HP 6-speed EPA fuel cost 2033$
Toyota Camry 268HP 6-speed EPA fuel cost 2034$

So for 1$ a year, you get 28HP or 12% more. And the 328i won't even touch the Camry V6 5-60mph in 6.1s.

Sorry to burst your bulbble, but a 2012 Toyota Camry V6 3.5 is closer to what I would call an engineering achievement. I am saying this even if I *hate* Toyota.
I'd easily wager that a MT 328i 2.0T will easily beat the Camry MT 3.5 in any acceleration test.

BMW gears their manuals very nicely to get all the power into motion.
Also the 328i is RWD and the Camry is FWD. The RWD will be able to put the power to the road much better than the FWD Camry, which will spin it's tires losing some of it's HP advantage.
The new 328i 2.0T should be in the upper mid 5's to 60 when tested in the real world.

Last edited by RPM90; 02-01-2012 at 11:13 PM.
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      02-01-2012, 10:48 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
No, you can't do this, unless you go 5mph, depress clutch mash throttle and release. That's abuse and non representative.

C&D 5-60mph IS representative and there is no tricking/abuse like most publishers do to get the best 0-60mph. They just mash it from low rpm.

Real life.

BS! It is not in the least "abuse" to rev a MT and GO.
It's the proper way to launch a MT.
Even with dual clutch trans many have a "launch control" that doesn't trick anything. It revs the engine like a MT driver would and then GOES.
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      02-01-2012, 11:04 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
No my figures are still dead on. This guy wrongly assumed that "0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec)" is the same and it is NOT.

Small displacement 4-cyl. turbo are always disadvantaged in the real life 5-60mph and an Audi A4Q Tip gets also a lazy 7.8s.
Small turbo's and automatics can be a disadvantage. That's why a good driver adjusts their driving style, and tries to brake torque an automatic to get more revs.
Also, the A4 you reference used the old tech 6spd auto, which has been replaced with a new 8spd auto that is more responsive and is better to able to use the low rpm torque that most modern small displacement turbo's have.
Audi's 2.0T is now dated. They need an update.
BMW's 2.0T is modern and has less lag than Audi's.

In the A4 years you reference, an A4 2.0T with MT did 60 in the low 6's.
I had that model, and with a MT it was very responsive. The tip was sucky and didn't play well with the 2.0T. Audi's new 8spd AT is much better and quicker even with the same engine it had n 2011.

Your info is old and becoming irrelevant.

I also agree with others here, "fuel efficiency" is NOT measured on how much it costs per year. It depends on how many MPG's it can achieve.
If you get more MPG on a given engine, then it follows that it will cost less per year.
If you're using figures for an engine that uses 87 octane, then it's not the whole story either as 87 costs less. Most people don't look at that, they look at the MPG.
If you want to make a case for 87, fine. Then, you'll have to test a 328i with 87 octane as well, and then compare the MPG using the same test cycle. That test cycle will prove positive for the BMW because it won't get the engine into an area where the knock sensor will go off, cause the engine can run just fine on 87, the power will be slightly reduced it there is knock.
It's not that BMW engines can't be run on 87, it's just that if you want the best performance with best power then you need to use the optimal octane.
So, both ways don't tell the whole story if you don't present the whole story.
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      02-01-2012, 11:09 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Nope that's true. The 328i N20, like the previous 328i N52, is unlikely to touch the Camry's 5-60mph in 6.1s.

Technically the Camry V6 posts better efficiency results than a N20 328i/Z4.

PS: I am still getting a F30 328i as my next car.
Gentleman's bet then, I wager the 328i MT and/or AT sport will post better than 6.1 to 60 when more tests start coming in. And, I don't care about 5-60. NO one races a 5-60. Real drivers race starting at 0mph.
It'll be the same for the Camry too. I'm sure we can find real 0-60 times for it.
I'm going with at least upper mid 5's (5.6 to 5.8)for the MT and maybe even for the sport AT version.
Real numbers will probably be closer to lower mid 5's, 5.3-5.5 with the MT.
You're on!

Last edited by RPM90; 02-02-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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      02-02-2012, 10:13 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Gentleman's bet then, I wager the 328i MT and/or AT sport will post better than 6.1 to 60 when more tests start coming in. And, I don't care about 5-60. NO one races a 5-60. Real drivers race starting at 0mph.
It'll be the same for the Camry too. I'm sure we can find real 0-60 times for it.
I'm going with upper mid 5's (5.6 to 5.8)for the MT and maybe even for the sport AT version.
You're on!
I respectfully disagree with "Real drivers start from 0mph". haha... do you think this will fare well on a multiple turn race-track? In a hairpin turn, you do slow down to ~5-10 mph and shove your foot down the throttle on the exit of the apex. 5-60mph times do matter...arguably more so than 0-60mph.
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      02-02-2012, 10:25 AM   #119
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      02-02-2012, 05:44 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by 90degreeman View Post
I respectfully disagree with "Real drivers start from 0mph". haha... do you think this will fare well on a multiple turn race-track? In a hairpin turn, you do slow down to ~5-10 mph and shove your foot down the throttle on the exit of the apex. 5-60mph times do matter...arguably more so than 0-60mph.
0-60 runs are drag race type racing, not road course racing.
When I say "racers" in this context, I mean drag style racing.
A real drag race starts with both cars standing still, at 0mph.

Road course is not about raw power and putting all of it to the ground all at once for the fastest run to end of a straight line.
It's about control and balance where a less powerful car might even win a race. BTW, do you always shove your foot all the way down at the exit?
Just wondering, cause that may not result in the fastest lap depending on the course. But, I dig what you're saying.

As I said, acceleration runs are about putting all the power down into forward motion to get to the end of that line as fast as possible.
When I consider 0-60 or 5-60 I'm not thinking road course.
That spec wasn't started with road racing in mind. It became standard as that is what American muscle cars were about, straight line acceleration.

Oh, and btw, 5-60 is not a test that is favorable to turbo engines to begin with. So, by it's very nature you'll get data that only serves to give the wrong idea and impression.
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      02-02-2012, 06:24 PM   #121
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0-60 runs are drag race type racing, not road course racing.
When I say "racers" in this context, I mean drag style racing.
A real drag race starts with both cars standing still, at 0mph.

Road course is not about raw power and putting all of it to the ground all at once for the fastest run to end of a straight line.
It's about control and balance where a less powerful car might even win a race. BTW, do you always shove your foot all the way down at the exit?
Just wondering, cause that may not result in the fastest lap depending on the course. But, I dig what you're saying.

As I said, acceleration runs are about putting all the power down into forward motion to get to the end of that line as fast as possible.
When I consider 0-60 or 5-60 I'm not thinking road course.
That spec wasn't started with road racing in mind. It became standard as that is what American muscle cars were about, straight line acceleration.

Oh, and btw, 5-60 is not a test that is favorable to turbo engines to begin with. So, by it's very nature you'll get data that only serves to give the wrong idea and impression.
Regarding full throttle at exit - No not always, but I was trying to make a point against 0-60mph.

We're in agreement now. Thanks for the clarification

PS - To be honest, in my humble opinion : Drag Racing < Track Racing < Rally Racing (although, I am over simplifying a lot of aspects...this is a subjective opinion)

Last edited by 90degreeman; 02-02-2012 at 06:32 PM.
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      02-02-2012, 07:38 PM   #122
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Regarding full throttle at exit - No not always, but I was trying to make a point against 0-60mph.

We're in agreement now. Thanks for the clarification

PS - To be honest, in my humble opinion : Drag Racing < Track Racing < Rally Racing (although, I am over simplifying a lot of aspects...this is a subjective opinion)
Road course > drag racing, we agree again.

Drag racing can be fun, but it's more of a young guy wham bam quick love thing.
Road racing is about finding the curves and figuring out how to finesse it to extract the greatest pleasure, sometimes hard and fast, sometimes slow and gentle. It's a better all around race using all your skills.

So depending on your mood fun can be had by all.
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      02-02-2012, 09:01 PM   #123
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Road course > drag racing, we agree again.

Drag racing can be fun, but it's more of a young guy wham bam quick love thing.
Road racing is about finding the curves and figuring out how to finesse it to extract the greatest pleasure, sometimes hard and fast, sometimes slow and gentle. It's a better all around race using all your skills.

So depending on your mood fun can be had by all.
True...no respect for Rally? They take the most beating and its quite dangerous. F1 racing is insane though...I saw a video of Chris Harris driving an F1 car (late 2000's) and he couldn't take it after a lap. How do they fit in that tiny cockpit with their giant balls? lol
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      02-03-2012, 06:36 PM   #124
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And, I don't care about 5-60. NO one races a 5-60.
That's because you don't understand what it is.

When was the last time you did a drop off clutch from 3500-4000rpm?

When was the last time that you simply mash the throttle from idle?

***Here's your very obvious answer.***
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      05-16-2012, 01:14 PM   #125
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that would be awesome! Eco Pro 328i w/auto 8spd
city 30 / highway 42
those are a3 tdi numbers, love bmw, just wish they would go diesel
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      05-16-2012, 01:36 PM   #126
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those are a3 tdi numbers, love bmw, just wish they would go diesel
i've gotten 43-46 mpg...
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