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      07-18-2012, 01:01 PM   #67
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I still think this is impossible. There is no way for the car to start if engine is in ready position and driver opens the door. On my car if engine is in ready position and I open the door the engine goes to off.

I would love to see a video of someone replicating this issue. For now I am going to stick to those drivers left the engine on and locked the car.

As for the pics it is possible to lock car with engine on.
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      07-18-2012, 02:27 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbpe View Post
This is a lot more serious than most seem to be seeing it. Someone observed a page back that the CO from a running car in your garage could kill you. That very thing killed our neighbors when I was growing up - brand new car that started "dieseling" after they closed the garage door and went to bed. Both dead the next morning. This needs to be ABSOLUTELY addressed by BMW. I'm calling customer service first thing in the morning. This is as big a deal as "my car occasionally bursts into flames and squirts gasoline on the walls from the headlight washers".
This is it! It's nice to know that 320d owners are doing this too because as much praise as I have for the 20d, YOU KNOW that you've left it on!
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      07-18-2012, 02:39 PM   #69
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I saw a F10 parked in London , same thing engine running, locked. Was wondering hwo on earth it that happended. To leave it in ASS mode is one thing but for it to start?
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      07-18-2012, 03:56 PM   #70
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I saw a F10 parked in London , same thing engine running, locked. Was wondering hwo on earth it that happended. To leave it in ASS mode is one thing but for it to start?
Yeah I know of a 530dGT parked in a multistory in London that was left running!
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      07-19-2012, 05:23 AM   #71
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I've managed to convince my dealer to log this with BMW UK. They took a similar position to Ric124 until I pointed out that I had personally witnessed this behaviour on two different vehicles and that perhaps taking this seriously and doing some investigation into their code might be the correct course of action before they get a bunch of owners claiming back for lost fuel (because diesel is so cheap in the UK...).

Fairly simple thing to fix really, code it such that the double lock (which most of us do to fold the mirrors) completely disables the start function and/or turns off the vehicle. I can understand the logic behind letting you lock a running vehicle (winter, etc.) and I can also understand not doing a key check as part of AS/S as this would slow it down. Could equally use the driver's seat occupancy sensor - it really shouldn't autostart the car unless the driver is seated? Perhaps with seatbelt on as well?

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      07-19-2012, 10:33 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icewraithuk View Post
I've managed to convince my dealer to log this with BMW UK. They took a similar position to Ric124 until I pointed out that I had personally witnessed this behaviour on two different vehicles and that perhaps taking this seriously and doing some investigation into their code might be the correct course of action before they get a bunch of owners claiming back for lost fuel (because diesel is so cheap in the UK...).

Fairly simple thing to fix really, code it such that the double lock (which most of us do to fold the mirrors) completely disables the start function and/or turns off the vehicle. I can understand the logic behind letting you lock a running vehicle (winter, etc.) and I can also understand not doing a key check as part of AS/S as this would slow it down. Could equally use the driver's seat occupancy sensor - it really shouldn't autostart the car unless the driver is seated? Perhaps with seatbelt on as well?
So when you open you car the needle doesn't move from ready to OFF?


When I come to a stop and put car in N and lift foot off clutch tach says READY but once I open the door it drops to off and warns me.

Car is running


Come to a stop car goes into ready then I open door. car switches to off plus the below alerts


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Last edited by ric124; 08-02-2012 at 09:25 AM. Reason: updated pics
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      07-20-2012, 06:26 AM   #73
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That's kind of the problem, it's nigh on impossible to replicate. If I try and exit the vehicle with the engine running, it warns me. If it's AS/S'd then it drops to off. I think there must just be something in their code that given a specific set of variables, doesn't fully deactivate it and allows the car to start again.

Let's put this into context, I have mild OCD and I'm of South African origin, so it may not surprise you to learn that I'm the type to make sure my car is properly locked before walking away. To the extent that I'll check by pulling the door handles (hence no comfort access option for me, that drives me nuts). I would definitely have heard the car running while I was performing my usual "I will be leaving my precious vehicle now, lets make sure it'll be here when I return" routine. I would definitely never leave a car running...

My current thinking (OCD kicking in and to try and validate this) is that I might get a little wireless video cam to put in the car with it set to alert on noise. Possibly an arduino with a motion sensor as it would certainly trigger on the diesel firing up.
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      07-20-2012, 09:53 AM   #74
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This is probably caused through a software bug. My assumption is that A.S.S. is controlled software reacting to sensors. The problem here could be due to a routine not asked when a certain situation occurs (in this case engine is going to start when temperature in passenger compartment exceeds a certain limit set in the climate control). Since micknugget stated the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by micknugget View Post
I had the exact thing happen to me the other day. I went into Blockbuster and when I came out, my car was running. Since it was hot out I am guessing the engine refired due to the cabin temp??? Whatever it was, i though that the A.S.S. was supposed to not restart the car once the door was opened? Weird.
The manual says that in certain situations the A.S.S. will start the engine again if e.g.
  • windshield is fogging,
  • pass. comp. temp. is getting too high or too low,
  • steering is initiated,
  • changing gear of automatic trans,
  • car is beginning to roll,
  • car battery is going to be drained etc.

The manual also states the engine will not start again after A.S.S. is initiated when
  • seatbelt is off and door opened
  • engine hood is opened

Sooo to come to a conclusion in this case my assumption is that when the engine is starting again due to high temp. in pass. compartment the software is not checking again if seatbelt is off OR door is opened OR key fob is in range. I myself am a software engineer and I can confirm this is a common mistake in implementing routines.
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      07-20-2012, 11:42 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123
How retarded is the ASS system?!?!?
"Is that your BMW running out there?!"
"Huh?!"

I'll explain - got to a site today, put my car in Park and secured it with the handbrake as per usual, so the ASS must've turned the engine off. Well, to the "Ready" state. What with all the fannying about, and taking my iPhone out the Media Cradle and general stuff, I must not have hit the Engine Start Stop button to turn it completely "Off", unbeknown to me at the time since there was complete silence from the car! So I got out, shut the door and locked the car, and even saw the iDrive, etc... turn off so I walked away from it as usual without a thought!

10 minutes later, "Hey! Is that your BMW running out there?!"

Indeed it was! My 328i was running!!!
Yes, this is my fault, but not by much! I should've looked at the needle to see if it was at "Ready" or "Off" but you can't portion too much blame on a guy walking away from a stopped, silenced and locked car! Especially when he saw the electrics go off!
Surely the car would gong when the door is open or throw a strop when you try to lock it!? Obviously not! My old Jag X-Type beeped and flashed the hazards if I tried to lock it with a door slightly ajar, so one would expect the latest offering from BMW to do something not too disimilar, especially as the engine is "engaged"!!
So I'm really mad at the ASS system for not warning me and for RESTARTING MY BLOODY CAR!!! Why?!?! YOU ARE F**KING LOCKED, EVERYTHING OFF AND KEY OUT OF RANGE!!!! HOW RETARDED ARE YOU?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?

So yes, that was frustrating... And not good for my not run-in engine. 800 miles on it. Thankfully it was only 10 minutes because this guy realised it was on, so I'm more relaxed than I otherwise would've been.

Think I am going to complain about this to BMW, no warning or even an illuminated light is ridiculous. My fault, but a very easy mistake to make. What if I was leaving it in the fricking airport carpark for a week or something?!
I have been saying for years, even on this board, how dangerous comfort access and now ass can be.

Why?

Sooner or later some chump is going to park his bimmer in his garage, get distracted, and leave his engine running... Only to wipe out his entire family.

Your car will be fine mechanically. But, the risk here is real.
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      07-20-2012, 04:43 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icewraithuk
That's kind of the problem, it's nigh on impossible to replicate. If I try and exit the vehicle with the engine running, it warns me. If it's AS/S'd then it drops to off. I think there must just be something in their code that given a specific set of variables, doesn't fully deactivate it and allows the car to start again.

Let's put this into context, I have mild OCD and I'm of South African origin, so it may not surprise you to learn that I'm the type to make sure my car is properly locked before walking away. To the extent that I'll check by pulling the door handles (hence no comfort access option for me, that drives me nuts). I would definitely have heard the car running while I was performing my usual "I will be leaving my precious vehicle now, lets make sure it'll be here when I return" routine. I would definitely never leave a car running...

My current thinking (OCD kicking in and to try and validate this) is that I might get a little wireless video cam to put in the car with it set to alert on noise. Possibly an arduino with a motion sensor as it would certainly trigger on the diesel firing up.
Yes as you say, there must be just a certain order of variables to a certain extent to replicate the issue! Because every time I try to replicate now, the needle drops to OFF and the car remains off.
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      07-20-2012, 05:55 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
Sooner or later some chump is going to park his bimmer in his garage, get distracted, and leave his engine running... Only to wipe out his entire family.
He could similarly leave the car running with a key in the ignition, pretty rare.

I'd worry more about real risks - like fatal bites from rabid feral gerbils.
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      07-20-2012, 06:40 PM   #78
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
Sooner or later some chump is going to park his bimmer in his garage, get distracted, and leave his engine running... Only to wipe out his entire family.
He could similarly leave the car running with a key in the ignition, pretty rare.

I'd worry more about real risks - like fatal bites from rabid feral gerbils.
But then BMW can't be blamed.
For BMW's best interest to avoid a law suit, they should address the issue outlined.
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      07-20-2012, 08:35 PM   #79
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But then BMW can't be blamed.
The sunroof failed to close automatically, providing unrestricted ingress for said rabid gerbil, upon re-entry, driver is bit. BMW's fault. Clearly.

Easily a more frightening and likely scenario than someone wiping out "his entire family" when an owner parks "his bimmer in his garage, get distracted, and leave his engine running."

Yes, if there truly is a problem with the engine management system it should be addressed. However, Comfort Access and a stop/start system are far from inherently dangerous.
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      07-21-2012, 04:11 AM   #80
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Yes, if there truly is a problem with the engine management system it should be addressed. However, Comfort Access and a stop/start system are far from inherently dangerous.
This.

There does seem to be a perspective issue on this forum.

The same argument could be said about any computer controlled system. If the computer crashes, if the engine can't be turned off, if if if.

This problem with ASS and keyless start needs fixing, and I can see there's a risk of the car restarting after being parked in a garage with tragic consequences, but there are "inherent" risks with all technology. Those risks shouldn't mean we should stop technological progress, they just mean we should demand that the technology is designed and built to mitigate or eliminate those risks.
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      08-02-2012, 08:16 AM   #81
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FYI for those who stated that the car should turn off when the FOB is no longer in range, there's actually a good reason for that and is not a design fault.

Imagine this scenario. You're driving down the highway at high speeds. Your FOB battery goes dead. Should the car then shut down the engine because it can no longer detect the key?

That's the main reason why it doesn't kill the engines immediately but only prevents restarting of the vehicle when the key is out of range.

** EDIT**
Always remember... when something seems like a fault... they'll always say its a design "feature"
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      08-02-2012, 09:04 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Fishjr View Post
FYI for those who stated that the car should turn off when the FOB is no longer in range, there's actually a good reason for that and is not a design fault.

Imagine this scenario. You're driving down the highway at high speeds. Your FOB battery goes dead. Should the car then shut down the engine because it can no longer detect the key?

That's the main reason why it doesn't kill the engines immediately but only prevents restarting of the vehicle when the key is out of range.

** EDIT**
Always remember... when something seems like a fault... they'll always say its a design "feature"

Yes this has been posted quite a few time. But the sensors are able to "locate" the FOB relatively accurately so it is quite easy to separate the case "FOB disappeared while driving" and "FOB walked out of the door while the car is parked and engine stopped".

Regarding ASS restarts, clearly it should not restart without the FOB in the car anyway.
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      08-02-2012, 09:32 AM   #83
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Yes this has been posted quite a few time. But the sensors are able to "locate" the FOB relatively accurately so it is quite easy to separate the case "FOB disappeared while driving" and "FOB walked out of the door while the car is parked and engine stopped".

Regarding ASS restarts, clearly it should not restart without the FOB in the car anyway.
Well my thought process is that if it's true the sensors are able to pick up the FOB accurately even if the battery is dead, they wouldn't have required you to touch your key FOB to the side of the steering wheel when the battery on the FOB is dead in order to start you car.

On your comments about the ASS restart.... that would be true if the car was turned to Off to begin with. Since it wasn't turned off but merely in the "Ready" position, it would still restart. The reason being, if I am correct on my theory (about FOB not detected because battery being dead and car not immediately shutting down), it would be silly for the driver to have to touch the FOB to the side of the steering wheel every time ASS kicks in.

Therefore, it's not really a fault (car not shutting off when FOB not in range), but its designed that way. However, the issue of ASS not turning the engine Off when seatbelt and car door opens is clearly a fault.
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      08-02-2012, 10:49 AM   #84
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Well my thought process is that if it's true the sensors are able to pick up the FOB accurately even if the battery is dead, they wouldn't have required you to touch your key FOB to the side of the steering wheel when the battery on the FOB is dead in order to start you car.

On your comments about the ASS restart.... that would be true if the car was turned to Off to begin with. Since it wasn't turned off but merely in the "Ready" position, it would still restart. The reason being, if I am correct on my theory (about FOB not detected because battery being dead and car not immediately shutting down), it would be silly for the driver to have to touch the FOB to the side of the steering wheel every time ASS kicks in.

Therefore, it's not really a fault (car not shutting off when FOB not in range), but its designed that way. However, the issue of ASS not turning the engine Off when seatbelt and car door opens is clearly a fault.
There are 2 different things, if the FOB battery is deadish, the car will sense it in the car near the steering wheel as you said then stop sensing.
IF the battery is fine, it will sense it go out of the car, furthermore the car would be locked via CA or remote.

In that second case it is very clear that the driver is gone.


But i could also see a case where you would park for a few minutes at a store and have passenger stay inside the car with the AC. In that case ASS could stop and restart later when the temp gets up.
You could want that without passenger as well.


Implementing smart features is not easy. In this case it should shutdown, and yes the manual says so .. will have to wait and see if BMW can fix the bug.
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      08-02-2012, 11:02 AM   #85
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But i could also see a case where you would park for a few minutes at a store and have passenger stay inside the car with the AC. In that case ASS could stop and restart later when the temp gets up.
You could want that without passenger as well.
If you leave the car with engine on ASS is disabled and engine stays on with AC running.

If you leave car with engine in ready position then engine switches to off position and disables ASS.
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      08-02-2012, 11:22 AM   #86
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why dont you guys just turn off the engine, and make sure it's off before you leave the car??


If you want the car's engine to stay on while you leave the car, why dont you just turn off ASS and make sure the car is still on as you leave the car...

in either case, you are sure that non strange unpredictable scenarios would happen...


i understand it's nice to discuss and trying to figure out... but i guess you'all like to find loop holes.

so please Carry on

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      08-02-2012, 11:27 AM   #87
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There are 2 different things, if the FOB battery is deadish, the car will sense it in the car near the steering wheel as you said then stop sensing.
IF the battery is fine, it will sense it go out of the car, furthermore the car would be locked via CA or remote.

In that second case it is very clear that the driver is gone.


But i could also see a case where you would park for a few minutes at a store and have passenger stay inside the car with the AC. In that case ASS could stop and restart later when the temp gets up.
You could want that without passenger as well.


Implementing smart features is not easy. In this case it should shutdown, and yes the manual says so .. will have to wait and see if BMW can fix the bug.

Dude, you might want to check out this site.
http://www.challengertalk.com/forums...p/t-68248.html

The site talks all about tests they've done with keyless entry systems.

Also, the contact point by the side of the steering wheel doesn't "sense" wirelessly without contact. You need to physically touch the FOB to the sensor on the side of the wheel.

To your second case, I did say that it is a fault in software when the driver removes the seatbelt and exits the car while in ASS mode and it doesn't shut off the engine completely.
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      08-02-2012, 11:46 AM   #88
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Never said or meant the contrary.
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