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      10-17-2012, 10:07 AM   #23
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I think the last post is probably the sad truth for Cadillac in most cities. Their dealers tend to be complacent and used to dealing with grey hairs that don't cross shop, they just automatically buy a Cadillac. So they're not receptive to the more aggressive customer who's looking to cross shop and expects to be treated well.

To be fair, some BMW dealers are this way too though.

However I've been raised to expect comical discounts on American cars, so while the MSRP is close to the 3er, I would suspect that actual purchase prices, especially in a few months when the initial surge dies down, will be significantly cheaper for the ATS than the F30.

Of course the dealers will still be awful, and you might get a fwd XTS as a service loaner.
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      10-17-2012, 01:33 PM   #24
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I like the looks, both interior and exterior, and configured the same its about 4k cheaper than a 328. Performance/economy is about 10% worse in both directions, and the back seat is a LOT smaller as is the trunk.

Im not paying 40k for a car that can only seat 2 people comfortably and cant hold luggage for a trip.
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      10-17-2012, 01:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
i was at long beach BMW a few weeks back.

checked out an estoril blue f30 328i in their showroom to see the color up close (i ordered one today from another BMW dealer).

that said, my friend and i walked next door to cadillac. sat in a 3.6 V6 luxury line ATS. had a cadilac sales person treat us like complete garbage and to the point where he actaully stormed off after we refused to give him our phone numbers for him to harass us when all i said was i was checking out new cars to buy and currently drove an A4 with 45k miles on it. my friend has a C300 with about the same milage, so we were both at least thinking about a new car soon.

anyhow, guy storms off after trying to pressure sale us into buying a loaded ATS for $52k when i said i'd probably spend up to $50k on a car tops.

So my friend and I are both 31. we look extremely young in general, people ask me if i just got out of college, but that said we expected to be treated at least semi decently.

BMW and i'd say honestly mercedes have treated me by far the best (never bought a mercedes, but my friend did). that said i own a current gen A4 and my friend owns a current gen c300. so i'm familiar with the cars in this class (other friends have infiniti Gs and lexus ISes as well so i have driven / sat in all the cars).

horrible dealer service not withstanding (i think GM dealers given they are all combo dealers, they have idiot sales people who think they can sell a luxury car the same way they dupe a moron into buying an impala... so thats strike 1) this car is not that great.


first off the ATS looks small for some reason up close. its not nearly as distinctive as the CTS up close and seems to lack i suppose prescense (maybe its just small) compared to my A4 or a new 3 series. now i've never actaully driven it (since the asshole caddy dealers would barely even let us sit in their precious entry level sport sedan let alone drive it) and i'm assuming its pretty decent based on reviews. but SIT in the car and you know its cheap. things like the door panel inside plastic cubby feel chevy cruze cheap. the center stack reeks of cheesy cheap glossy plastic and looks like they pulled it right out of the volt. the center interior light button switches felt cheap. the chrome plastic el cheapo trim looks super tacky and is everywhere. and the capacitive buttons for EVERYTHING is plain horrible and they dont feel good at all. and obviously no tactile feedback. on the non cue models the touch screen you have to control everything also feels sluggish. it is basically the opposite of refinment


i have to say , nice try cadilac but you still lose. the ATS is not inexpensive either, so its basically a few grand less than a bmw, and probably more than an audi to have to deal with horrible dealer service etc on a car with a crap interior. why would you do that? i'd buy a 3 series, A4 , C class in that order and even a G37 before buying an ATS based on cars i've driven just from interior feel alone (i'm huge on interiors, i didn't buy a C class the minute i felt the hvac knobs and steering wheel on the pre refresh W204 and got the audi. new F30 thumbs up bmw compared to the e90 btw).

anyway thats my 2 cents. the reviews will say it drives great... but it just doesnt feel premium enough. its like the first gen G35 , great driver, unrefinied and not luxury but for most people they will think its great since they dont know better (i know, i bought a first gen G35 when i was 23 and didnt know any better.... my tastes are more refined now)
This is funny. Can you find one review that says anything about the interior being cheap or looking cheap? I've driven a 3.6L ATS, and the interior is anything but cheap. It's much nicer than the BMW and I think most people would agree (BMW fan or not). Say what you want about CUE, as people will either like it or not, but at least it's more interesting than sticking half an IPad into the dash without the ability to have it go down lol. I question whether you really sat in it at all.......

As someone who is currently shopping around, I'd rank the interiors like this:

1) Audi A4/A5
2) ATS
3) Mercedes C Class
4) BMW 3 Series

That's not to say any of the interiors are "bad" or poorly done. But the Audi has to be the nicest overall. The ATS is the most daring, interesting and technologically advanced (the stuff CUE does is pretty incredible). All the C has going for it is the interior. And the 3 series is just plain dull. That's how I see it.

Last edited by Showtyme5; 10-17-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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      10-17-2012, 03:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsedlak View Post
Cadillac, IMO, has been doing it (sporty sedans) right since the CTS-V.
They are different, but certainly fun cars to drive.

If I weren't buying a BMW, I'd probably go for the ATS or CTS.
Could be.

But the point is that there is a BMW, therefore you're not buying a Cadillac. This must be the 15th thread on the ATS subject, and they all end the same way. No BMW is buying one. In fact, if you go visit a Cadillac forum, they aren't buying them either.

It's a car with no customers. GM will find that all they did was create a cheaper, smaller Caddy and instead of BMW owners they're getting Buick, Chevrolet, and other Cadillac owners to bite.

GM has shut down the advertising, too. While BMW is going crazy pushing the 3 Series (now that XDrive's are in stock) and Audi, Lexus and the usual suspects are gearing up for the Christmas push, GM has taken all that money they spend on the ATS during the summer and moved it to cheaper cars. It's over.

BJ
I totally agree. I don't care what the reviews and claims are. Nobody is going to cross-shop BMW and Cadillac. GM was dumb to think that they would convert BMW drivers.

I agree that the only people that will be buying this car are present Cadillac owners or those who are tired of Acura or Infiniti. I think Acura is in real trouble IMHO.
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      10-17-2012, 03:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzcrna View Post
I totally agree. I don't care what the reviews and claims are. Nobody is going to cross-shop BMW and Cadillac. GM was dumb to think that they would convert BMW drivers.

I agree that the only people that will be buying this car are present Cadillac owners or those who are tired of Acura or Infiniti. I think Acura is in real trouble IMHO.
I disagree. I bet there are many cross shoppers now for the ATS due to its handling, which in most of the reviews I've read, is better than the F30's. Will the typical "my shit don't stink, and NOTHING WILL EVER BEAT A 3 SERIES" shopper cross shop with a Cadillac? No. Just like how iPhone fans simply state how horrible Andriod is, and will never beat the iPhone. It truly is 'To each their own'. No need to hate that Cadillac has a contender.

BTW- this is coming from someone who has both a 335i and a CTS Coupe, AND actually test drove a F30 335i and 3.6 ATS.
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      10-17-2012, 03:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Aggression View Post
BTW- this is coming from someone who has both a 335i and a CTS Coupe, AND actually test drove a F30 335i and 3.6 ATS.
No fair coming to this fight with actual bona fides. Come up with a tired slogan, now!
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      10-17-2012, 04:24 PM   #29
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+1

Rational discourse based on actual facts and real-world experience has no place here.
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      10-17-2012, 05:41 PM   #30
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Do you guys in the US seriously think the car has 'looks' inside or out?

I look it from an 'across the pond' perspective and I just can't get my head around the front of the car at all. Where is the design? Is there any theme to it at all? To me the interior dash is just plain horrible, I just couldn't live with it, day in day out, however it drives.

Sorry, but I'd just walk by and think some "poor soul" will buy that, and have to live with it.

Each to his own, but the ATS doesn't stir me one little bit.

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      10-17-2012, 07:44 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Showtyme5 View Post
This is funny. Can you find one review that says anything about the interior being cheap or looking cheap? I've driven a 3.6L ATS, and the interior is anything but cheap. It's much nicer than the BMW and I think most people would agree (BMW fan or not). Say what you want about CUE, as people will either like it or not, but at least it's more interesting than sticking half an IPad into the dash without the ability to have it go down lol. I question whether you really sat in it at all.......

As someone who is currently shopping around, I'd rank the interiors like this:

1) Audi A4/A5
2) ATS
3) Mercedes C Class
4) BMW 3 Series

That's not to say any of the interiors are "bad" or poorly done. But the Audi has to be the nicest overall. The ATS is the most daring, interesting and technologically advanced (the stuff CUE does is pretty incredible). All the C has going for it is the interior. And the 3 series is just plain dull. That's how I see it.

i have no idea if you have actaully sat in an ATS. maybe the sport versions look different, but the one i was in. the center console was mostly capacitive plastic . the cubbies in the inside of the doors felt cheap. and all over the cabin was lined with shiny plastic chrome.

it was just tacky and the plastic door cubby things were economy car cheap. the only nice touch was the brushed aluminum was polished and the steering wheel was very nice.

maybe people have different taste, but like i said my friend and i drove there in my 2010A4. the one you rank at the top of your list for interiors. i'd say the new F30 is at least equivalent materials wise. and the C300 my friend has (pre w204 refresh) i'd say is beneath both the f30 and b8 a4 (and he'll agree on this too , cheap knobs, door pins, steering wheel etc).

again i was sitting in a non cue , lower trim 3.6 V6 model. maybe its significantly better on a higher trim line. but the one i was in did not seem particularly great interior wise
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      10-18-2012, 08:29 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
i have no idea if you have actaully sat in an ATS. maybe the sport versions look different, but the one i was in. the center console was mostly capacitive plastic . the cubbies in the inside of the doors felt cheap. and all over the cabin was lined with shiny plastic chrome.

it was just tacky and the plastic door cubby things were economy car cheap. the only nice touch was the brushed aluminum was polished and the steering wheel was very nice.

maybe people have different taste, but like i said my friend and i drove there in my 2010A4. the one you rank at the top of your list for interiors. i'd say the new F30 is at least equivalent materials wise. and the C300 my friend has (pre w204 refresh) i'd say is beneath both the f30 and b8 a4 (and he'll agree on this too , cheap knobs, door pins, steering wheel etc).

again i was sitting in a non cue , lower trim 3.6 V6 model. maybe its significantly better on a higher trim line. but the one i was in did not seem particularly great interior wise
Ahhh, that clears it up. It didn't have CUE! Yeah, I actually don't even know how that looks, but you're probably right. I think the ATS is a car that you have to get the CUE system in. The one I was in was a premium and had CUE and the magnetic ride control.
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      10-18-2012, 08:30 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Aggression View Post
I disagree. I bet there are many cross shoppers now for the ATS due to its handling, which in most of the reviews I've read, is better than the F30's. Will the typical "my shit don't stink, and NOTHING WILL EVER BEAT A 3 SERIES" shopper cross shop with a Cadillac? No. Just like how iPhone fans simply state how horrible Andriod is, and will never beat the iPhone. It truly is 'To each their own'. No need to hate that Cadillac has a contender.

BTW- this is coming from someone who has both a 335i and a CTS Coupe, AND actually test drove a F30 335i and 3.6 ATS.
So what were your thoughts on the 335i v 3.6L ATS?
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      10-18-2012, 09:12 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by jzcrna View Post
I totally agree. I don't care what the reviews and claims are. Nobody is going to cross-shop BMW and Cadillac. GM was dumb to think that they would convert BMW drivers.

I agree that the only people that will be buying this car are present Cadillac owners or those who are tired of Acura or Infiniti. I think Acura is in real trouble IMHO.
I don't think Acura will ever be in trouble. My wife bought an MDX which we got 9k below MSRP and has tons of base features. Also, it's a Honda so it's reliable.

People who buy cars have different philosophies. Some say a car is to get from point A to point B (Toyota). Some like luxury (Cadillac). Some like sportiness (BMW). We'll see if Cadillac can pull off a new image.

One thing I hate about the ATS is the 6-AT, however, my honda accord has 5 cogs so anything will be an upgrade for me.
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      10-19-2012, 10:20 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtyme5 View Post
This is funny. Can you find one review that says anything about the interior being cheap or looking cheap? I've driven a 3.6L ATS, and the interior is anything but cheap. It's much nicer than the BMW and I think most people would agree (BMW fan or not). Say what you want about CUE, as people will either like it or not, but at least it's more interesting than sticking half an IPad into the dash without the ability to have it go down lol. I question whether you really sat in it at all.......

As someone who is currently shopping around, I'd rank the interiors like this:

1) Audi A4/A5
2) ATS
3) Mercedes C Class
4) BMW 3 Series

That's not to say any of the interiors are "bad" or poorly done. But the Audi has to be the nicest overall. The ATS is the most daring, interesting and technologically advanced (the stuff CUE does is pretty incredible). All the C has going for it is the interior. And the 3 series is just plain dull. That's how I see it.
It depends what you want in an interior. I would consider the Audi and Mercedes interiors to be more luxury than sport oriented. I haven't seen the ATS in person but have seen numerous pictures and it looks more luxury than sport. As Cadillac is aggressively advertising that the ATS is a serious sports sedan and targets the 3 series and not the Audi or C class, this is a bit strange. For certain, the 3 series interior is the sportiest in the class. And last, technically advanced is worthless if the interface is flawed. BMW had this issue with earlier iDrive systems.
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      10-19-2012, 10:23 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzcrna View Post
I totally agree. I don't care what the reviews and claims are. Nobody is going to cross-shop BMW and Cadillac. GM was dumb to think that they would convert BMW drivers.

I agree that the only people that will be buying this car are present Cadillac owners or those who are tired of Acura or Infiniti. I think Acura is in real trouble IMHO.
I think you are completely wrong. If the 2.0T ATS were to have a drivetrain as good as the 3 series, I'd very seriously consider one once my lease runs out. I had a 2006 CTS and while the interior was too plastic, it was a hell of a car, well made with a top notch drivetrain.
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      10-19-2012, 12:04 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Messer-schmitt View Post
I drove a CTS-V on a track in Vegas a few years ago, and it was the real deal. But the internal quality was not up to par and the whole thing felt cheap. I believe my signature says it all...
ITs a chevy. Enough said. I dont have enough gold in my mouth and would never opt to throw 24 in rims on any car wich is the norm for this ghetto fab ride....not for me

ALthough I do like the cts-v alot. But that car is in a different league as far as performance and bang for the $.
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      10-19-2012, 12:14 PM   #38
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[quote=john08135i;12847048]I love the CTS-V but i never even considered cross shopping this to the 3 series.. and i still wont. The styling has something about it i don't get..

Being an American car the resale has to be much worse.. i almost leased a CTS-V but the residual was so bad on them it just wasn't possible..[/QUOTE]
This ^ Its just too hard to stomach the depreciation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
i was at long beach BMW a few weeks back.

checked out an estoril blue f30 328i in their showroom to see the color up close (i ordered one today from another BMW dealer).

that said, my friend and i walked next door to cadillac. sat in a 3.6 V6 luxury line ATS. had a cadilac sales person treat us like complete garbage and to the point where he actaully stormed off after we refused to give him our phone numbers for him to harass us when all i said was i was checking out new cars to buy and currently drove an A4 with 45k miles on it. my friend has a C300 with about the same milage, so we were both at least thinking about a new car soon.

anyhow, guy storms off after trying to pressure sale us into buying a loaded ATS for $52k when i said i'd probably spend up to $50k on a car tops.

So my friend and I are both 31. we look extremely young in general, people ask me if i just got out of college, but that said we expected to be treated at least semi decently.

BMW and i'd say honestly mercedes have treated me by far the best (never bought a mercedes, but my friend did). that said i own a current gen A4 and my friend owns a current gen c300. so i'm familiar with the cars in this class (other friends have infiniti Gs and lexus ISes as well so i have driven / sat in all the cars).

horrible dealer service not withstanding (i think GM dealers given they are all combo dealers, they have idiot sales people who think they can sell a luxury car the same way they dupe a moron into buying an impala... so thats strike 1) this car is not that great.


first off the ATS looks small for some reason up close. its not nearly as distinctive as the CTS up close and seems to lack i suppose prescense (maybe its just small) compared to my A4 or a new 3 series. now i've never actaully driven it (since the asshole caddy dealers would barely even let us sit in their precious entry level sport sedan let alone drive it) and i'm assuming its pretty decent based on reviews. but SIT in the car and you know its cheap. things like the door panel inside plastic cubby feel chevy cruze cheap. the center stack reeks of cheesy cheap glossy plastic and looks like they pulled it right out of the volt. the center interior light button switches felt cheap. the chrome plastic el cheapo trim looks super tacky and is everywhere. and the capacitive buttons for EVERYTHING is plain horrible and they dont feel good at all. and obviously no tactile feedback. on the non cue models the touch screen you have to control everything also feels sluggish. it is basically the opposite of refinment


i have to say , nice try cadilac but you still lose. the ATS is not inexpensive either, so its basically a few grand less than a bmw, and probably more than an audi to have to deal with horrible dealer service etc on a car with a crap interior. why would you do that? i'd buy a 3 series, A4 , C class in that order and even a G37 before buying an ATS based on cars i've driven just from interior feel alone (i'm huge on interiors, i didn't buy a C class the minute i felt the hvac knobs and steering wheel on the pre refresh W204 and got the audi. new F30 thumbs up bmw compared to the e90 btw).

anyway thats my 2 cents. the reviews will say it drives great... but it just doesnt feel premium enough. its like the first gen G35 , great driver, unrefinied and not luxury but for most people they will think its great since they dont know better (i know, i bought a first gen G35 when i was 23 and didnt know any better.... my tastes are more refined now)
I have never ever been treated better then my local BMW dealer. THey do go above and beyond to make you happy and for as much as these cars are they should!
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      10-19-2012, 12:30 PM   #39
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yep, my dealer is great, also helps they are right down the street.
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      10-19-2012, 03:30 PM   #40
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After two BMWs I was convinced I'd buy another. I leased the Z4 (82% residual!?) to bide my time when I traded my previous 335 to get the new one. After driving both the new 3 and the ATS, I prefer the handling of the ATS. F30 is not nearly as much fun as E90. BMW engines are superior, but will give up a little on the engine to gain in handling. I also prefer the CUE system to Idrive. Finally, I've had mechanical and/or electrical problems with both my BMWs, so ready to try something else. Cadillac's reliability has been good, so will go with the ATS with the 3.6 engine. While I've driven manual transmissions since I was 18, the autos are good enough now that I'm willing to make that change too. Maybe I'll come to regret the change, but willing to take the chance.

I don't really care what other people think my car says about me. I buy a car to satisfy me, and don't really care what others think. If BMW goes back to emphasizing performance over comfort and economy, I'll likely be back in a BMW in the future.

I'm always amazed at how sure people are of at the superiority of a particular car when they haven't driven the competitor.
Which 3 did you drive? Virtually everyone says that the adaptive steering/suspension work miracles for the 3. You also seem to be in a class of 1 regarding the CUE system. It's been universally panned. And while the ATS does have a responsive chassis, the steering is even more numb than that of the BMW. And if you're going AT, then the issue of transmissions comes into play, with the BMW 8AT considerably outperforming the 6AT in the Caddie. The engine is basically a corporate GM V6. Nice, but no N55. It's your money, but I would not go near that car, especially not in it's first year.
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      10-20-2012, 10:13 AM   #41
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It was a sport line and I drove in sport mode, but don't know if it had the adjustable suspension. In my test drives I didn't find ATS steering more numb, but the reverse. On Cue versus Idrive, I would recommend not relying on a few magazine reviews and try it yourself. Some of the more tech savvy reviewers have actually liked it, and I much preferred it to Idrive, but to each his own. Agree BMW engines are superior, but I tend to prioritize handling over engines (have owned two Miatas and an RX-8 before I started buying German cars), but certainly understand others have different priorities. The auto box in the ATS has actually gotten very good reviews, especially in sport mode, but it does have two fewer cogs. However, I actually find that helpful when manually shifting it.

I'm not trying to criticize anyone's decision to buy a 3, just trying to explain that the ATS will probably pick off a few former BMW owners (saw a few others on the ATS forum) who are open to trying new things, and was surprised how critical people were of the ATS when they haven't even driven it. And there are a lot of people in this forum who seem very concerned about what other people think about their car (even whether the color is "manly" enough). Buy what you prefer. That's what will make you happy.
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      10-20-2012, 10:29 AM   #42
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Yuck. It looks like a brick shit house. So, no thanks.

I thought GM was now a Korean Car Company. Maybe I am ahead of my time!
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      10-21-2012, 07:03 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzcrna View Post
I totally agree. I don't care what the reviews and claims are. Nobody is going to cross-shop BMW and Cadillac. GM was dumb to think that they would convert BMW drivers.

I agree that the only people that will be buying this car are present Cadillac owners or those who are tired of Acura or Infiniti. I think Acura is in real trouble IMHO.
I'm sorry, but you have made an idiotic statement. I am cross-shopping the Cadillac ATS and the BMW F30. I've owned three 3-Series BMWs since 1988 with a combined total of over 600,000 miles driven on them, so I'll rank myself as a diehard BMW owner. The ATS is a well assembled and attractive car. Once the 2.0T with a manual trans is available for a test drive, I will drive both cars back to back for my evaluation.

The only people who will not cross-shop BMW and Cadillac are those nubie BMW fanboyz who can only see blue and white propellers in their dreams and only care about how others perceive their status by driving a car with the Roundel affixed to the hood.

What the real issue is, Cadillac’s first attempt to take on the vaulted 3-series is so good right out of the box, it has you Bimmer-boys scared and doubting your selfworth.

Go get a Roundel tattoo.. Christ.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-21-2012 at 07:12 AM.
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      10-21-2012, 08:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
Could be.

But the point is that there is a BMW, therefore you're not buying a Cadillac. This must be the 15th thread on the ATS subject, and they all end the same way. No BMW is buying one. In fact, if you go visit a Cadillac forum, they aren't buying them either.

It's a car with no customers. GM will find that all they did was create a cheaper, smaller Caddy and instead of BMW owners they're getting Buick, Chevrolet, and other Cadillac owners to bite.

GM has shut down the advertising, too. While BMW is going crazy pushing the 3 Series (now that XDrive's are in stock) and Audi, Lexus and the usual suspects are gearing up for the Christmas push, GM has taken all that money they spend on the ATS during the summer and moved it to cheaper cars. It's over.

BJ
Are you angry because GM made a car that reviewers are saying has matched the 3 series on some characteristics?

It's clear BMW has changed the focus of the 3 series to attract buyers from other brands. Therefore, it's no surprise that the gap is closing....they can blame themselves for that.

I think the consensus opinion on the ATS is pretty clear: it does some things better than the BMW but in the end the BMW is better all 'round. That's not a bad thing. It's actually good...maybe these brands will do away with some complacency and give us more for our 60 grand.
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