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      10-19-2012, 12:22 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by tg335 View Post
Exactly. For $2300 you get a little exhaust difference with the muffler and a tune to bump up your boost by 1psi to net you 20-25 hp. Talk about a lousy hp per dollar ratio. Its nice to keep the warranty and all but its made to rake $ in and keep everyone strung along IMO. They could do so much better for that amount of cash. Not trying to bash it but its just disappoints me.
Agree. BMW should be able to produce much more HP out of that engine for the same price but they know don't have to. They know that owners with the cash that want to keep warranties intact will pay more for minimal gain. That being said, I do notice a difference between the 2 engines. Prob not $2300 difference but I'll take it. If I did not lease my cars, I would most certainly do something else like procede, JB1, etc.[/quote]

I guess you can always remove the procede or JB1 and clear codes. Thats the beauty of these systems. Less money and about 30-40 more ponies.
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      10-19-2012, 01:12 PM   #68
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Good information. I called my dealer and tried to add the Z3B to my order but they said it wasn't going to be available until 1st qtr 2013. How did you get it on your build? Did you dealer confirm the timing?

Thanks,
I have a confirmed production number from the dealer. Not sure of delivery but I would expect late december/early january.
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      10-19-2012, 01:26 PM   #69
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The M Performance Exhaust is already here in the States. I, along with several other members, have it installed.

I hadn't heard anything about PPK pricing until I read your post.
I got the M Sport Exhaust installed on my F30 for $1100, haven't heard it yet since the car's still being prepped...hoping for 2 hp, lol!

On a more serious note, when are the bloody Dinan F30 updates coming?!
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      10-19-2012, 03:49 PM   #70
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But you just have to feel it somehere in the powerband. The 30/50Nm torque gain as well.

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You'll feel it, but barely. 20hp/30tq isn't going to feel like much in a car that weighs this much. And remember, it's 20hp/30tq peak not across the entire power band from idle to the redline. I've spent over a decade modding cars and I can tell you first hand this isn't much. A 335i with the power pack will probably give you .2 seconds/2mph or so in the 1/4 mile as an example. That's only 2 car lengths. It's a very slow pull to get 2 car lengths over a 1/4 mile and not something that's you're going to feel pinning you back to your seat. Most people would struggle to tell which car was faster if they drove both.
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      10-19-2012, 05:10 PM   #71
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You'll feel it, but barely. 20hp/30tq isn't going to feel like much in a car that weighs this much. And remember, it's 20hp/30tq peak not across the entire power band from idle to the redline. I've spent over a decade modding cars and I can tell you first hand this isn't much. A 335i with the power pack will probably give you .2 seconds/2mph or so in the 1/4 mile as an example. That's only 2 car lengths. It's a very slow pull to get 2 car lengths over a 1/4 mile and not something that's you're going to feel pinning you back to your seat. Most people would struggle to tell which car was faster if they drove both.
BMW states .2 seconds faster to 62mph. That is not 1/4 mile. So assuming BMW is not lying, would you say a .2 second difference to 62mph is noticeable?

EDIT: from the graph both the new power as well as torque curves are pretty parallel to previous values, and seem to be as across the rev band as the previous values.
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      10-19-2012, 06:24 PM   #72
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You'll feel it, but barely. 20hp/30tq isn't going to feel like much in a car that weighs this much. And remember, it's 20hp/30tq peak not across the entire power band from idle to the redline. I've spent over a decade modding cars and I can tell you first hand this isn't much. A 335i with the power pack will probably give you .2 seconds/2mph or so in the 1/4 mile as an example. That's only 2 car lengths. It's a very slow pull to get 2 car lengths over a 1/4 mile and not something that's you're going to feel pinning you back to your seat. Most people would struggle to tell which car was faster if they drove both.
This is exceptionally true... my thoughts are go with one of the aftermarket's (BMS, etc.) that will give you 50/60+ or else there's no reason to waste your money for a 7% power increase which is what you'll get with the PPK
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      10-19-2012, 08:57 PM   #73
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BMW states .2 seconds faster to 62mph. That is not 1/4 mile. So assuming BMW is not lying, would you say a .2 second difference to 62mph is noticeable?
Fine, so maybe .3 seconds in the 1/4 mile. That's 3 car lengths over the 1/4 mile which is still not going to feel like a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
EDIT: from the graph both the new power as well as torque curves are pretty parallel to previous values, and seem to be as across the rev band as the previous values.
The reason for the solid improvement from 0-62mph is that most of the power gain comes in the mid range. If you look at the graph again, you'll notice the power gain really tapers off on the top end, where the car spends most of its time at WOT. The gains just aren't there up top.


Also, if the BMW power kit is anything like the Hartge kit that came out, I thought I remembered the Hartge extra power coming at more than 80% throttle or something like that. So is it possible BMW is doing something similar where the car doesn't see the power gains unless its pretty much WOT?
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      10-19-2012, 09:39 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
I got the M Sport Exhaust installed on my F30 for $1100, haven't heard it yet since the car's still being prepped...hoping for 2 hp, lol!

On a more serious note, when are the bloody Dinan F30 updates coming?!
As I understand it, Dinan is currently developing software for both the N20 and N55 (F30 N55, that is).

I think my Dinan days are behind me.
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      10-20-2012, 10:37 AM   #75
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As I understand it, Dinan is currently developing software for both the N20 and N55 (F30 N55, that is).

I think my Dinan days are behind me.
I had a Dinan tune before, and it was such a hassle to deal with. For how often the dealership updated my computer, I found myself having to get my dinan tune reflashed about 4 times a year. Very annoying. Even though the Dinan dealerships are supposedly obligated to reflash, they're in no rush to do so because they're not making any more money off of you once your flash is done. You almost feel like a nuisance going back so often.

That and the time it took to drive/flash/drive back 4 times a year ended up being probably close to 15 hours a year of my time wasted. In hindsight I wish I would have gotten a handheld plug in that I could flash and unflash in my garage at my convenience. That is what I am waiting for this go around.
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      10-20-2012, 11:38 AM   #76
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I had a Dinan tune before, and it was such a hassle to deal with. For how often the dealership updated my computer, I found myself having to get my dinan tune reflashed about 4 times a year. Very annoying. Even though the Dinan dealerships are supposedly obligated to reflash, they're in no rush to do so because they're not making any more money off of you once your flash is done. You almost feel like a nuisance going back so often.

That and the time it took to drive/flash/drive back 4 times a year ended up being probably close to 15 hours a year of my time wasted. In hindsight I wish I would have gotten a handheld plug in that I could flash and unflash in my garage at my convenience. That is what I am waiting for this go around.
Dinan overpriced weak tunes.
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      10-20-2012, 12:25 PM   #77
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Dinan overpriced weak tunes.
I'm purchasing from a Dinan Dealer, so I figured I'd be there getting service anyhow...

How are often does BMW update their ECU? 4 times a year seems like a bit much - is it a consequence of new model introductions, or is this habitual?

Thanks,
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      10-20-2012, 12:28 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
I got the M Sport Exhaust installed on my F30 for $1100, haven't heard it yet since the car's still being prepped...hoping for 2 hp, lol!

On a more serious note, when are the bloody Dinan F30 updates coming?!
How'd you manage that?
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      10-20-2012, 12:33 PM   #79
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How'd you manage that?
I had them match the Dinan 15% special, then negotiated on the service end...remember, new car, so they are incented to add it into my financing...was honestly hoping to get the Dinan exhaust, but since it wasn't available, they tried to "make the sale" with a healthy alternative.

I got the Kidney Grilles for $185 (pair) installed.
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      10-20-2012, 02:06 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
I'm purchasing from a Dinan Dealer, so I figured I'd be there getting service anyhow...

How are often does BMW update their ECU? 4 times a year seems like a bit much - is it a consequence of new model introductions, or is this habitual?

Thanks,
Shivas
Yeah I think youre right on par with about 4 times a year lol. I've had my f30 for 6 months and its had 2 new flashes. SO I expect 2 more within the next 6 months.

I think Having to reflash the Dinan software 4 times a year is way too annoying and inconvenient. If cobb does not put something out with in the next year Id like to try out the Hartge piggyback.
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      10-20-2012, 06:52 PM   #81
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Aha I see. So it only affected the 135i?
My 09 135i didn't have any burble because it was an MT.
The AT's had it.

The updated firmware RUINED my 135i's throttle response though.
From new until the update, throttle response was pretty good.
After the update, mid range response was gone, flat.
In 3rd at around 4K, I would go WFO and there would be a nearly 1 second delay in the engine responding. It sucked big time. Before the update response was much quicker.
Also after the update, in mid-high rpm in turns, throttle response was awful.
It wasn't turbo lag, but it felt like it. It was simply a delayed response to throttle input at higher rpm.

My guess was BMW did it as a band aid, thinking it might slow down HPFP failure by not giving full instant power on demand. Rather, full power sort of "ramped up" with larger throttle application.
The update was done before BMW figured out the HPFP problem.
But, they never reversed the throttle delay that came with that update.
Instead they came out with the PPK, which most people reporting that throttle response improved.
I think the PPK software simply gave back what the update took away, and BMW promoted the PPK as a performance enhancer.
I called it a "bait and switch". I paid for the performance I had when the car was new. Then BMW neutered the throttle response and then wanted more money to install software that gave back the response, along with a power boost. Really pissed me off.

Throttle response in my 335i is excellent in "sport" and "sport+".
In "comfort" mode response is too slow requiring a larger pedal application to get the ECU to give more power.
With my current "sport mode config", my "chassis" settings are sport, but throttle and trans shift mode are in "comfort".
The adaptive suspension gives that option, but I really do want BMW to release software to allow us to select throttle response separately.
Ideally we should be able to select the mode for steering, throttle, suspension, and trans operation, and then save that as a default.
The ability to do that is already in place, BMW simply has to program the system to give us a screen where each item can be selected.

BMW! I'm still waiting! And, I think I'll be waiting 3 years from now when it's time for a new car. It's so freaking easy to do and a very logical way to do it. I still can't fathom this glaring oversight. They promote giving us driver selectable driving modes, but it's still very restrictive as to what we can actually select.
Yes, I'll continue to harp about this, because it's so freaking illogical in how BMW implemented driving "modes".
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      10-20-2012, 07:04 PM   #82
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Never experienced anything like that, I've had a N54/N55 for years that got updates. To me all of this just sounds like conspiracy theories. Of course the cars get smoother the more you develop the software, that is the evolution part.

Well, I'll just enjoy my car and the free updates (and PPK) and the rest of you can stir up conspiracy theories online. No matter what each side says here we won't come to an agreement.

Over and out!
I'm not into conspiracy theories, and I don't think that BMW intentionally detunes our cars to get us to buy "performance enhancing" software.

What I do know is that my 135i received a software update that decreased my over all performance, compared to how it ran before the update.
That's real.
Then, the PPK came out for the 135i, and one of it's benefits was better throttle response.
Thus, I can see why some think BMW did this on purpose in order to sell the upgrade.

The "burble" thing is cool, but I don't find it to be a "performance" issue.
We'll know more if a software update happens and some performance is actually lost, while a bit later we find the PPK returning some of what is taken away.

I hope it ain't true. I don't want it to be true.
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      10-20-2012, 07:09 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by jsedlak View Post
I don't things I don't think that someone the dealership away with don't think the dealer's ship could every away get with that.
If read I away get dishonest dealership, some later software install upgrade comment not available even later by a couple months.
Sure not poster knows even he's about talking nonsense more.
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      10-20-2012, 07:19 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
But you just have to feel it somehere in the powerband. The 30/50Nm torque gain as well.

Chers
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I tend to agree.
The HP isn't a big increase, but with AT the torque increase should be felt in the midrange.
Also, it's not just a matter of a "peak" HP or lb ft. increase, it's more about the actual curve and what the PPK will do to that.
It's possible the PPK will fatten up the curve and make it "flatter/more consistent" across the rev range.

It may not show up as a major shove in the seat o the pants, but it'll show itself in faster times and higher trap speeds.
I don't know, but I'm expressing wishful thinking here.
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      10-20-2012, 07:41 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
My 09 135i didn't have any burble because it was an MT.
The AT's had it.

The updated firmware RUINED my 135i's throttle response though.
From new until the update, throttle response was pretty good.
After the update, mid range response was gone, flat.
In 3rd at around 4K, I would go WFO and there would be a nearly 1 second delay in the engine responding. It sucked big time. Before the update response was much quicker.
Also after the update, in mid-high rpm in turns, throttle response was awful.
It wasn't turbo lag, but it felt like it. It was simply a delayed response to throttle input at higher rpm.

My guess was BMW did it as a band aid, thinking it might slow down HPFP failure by not giving full instant power on demand. Rather, full power sort of "ramped up" with larger throttle application.
The update was done before BMW figured out the HPFP problem.
But, they never reversed the throttle delay that came with that update.
Instead they came out with the PPK, which most people reporting that throttle response improved.
I think the PPK software simply gave back what the update took away, and BMW promoted the PPK as a performance enhancer.
I called it a "bait and switch". I paid for the performance I had when the car was new. Then BMW neutered the throttle response and then wanted more money to install software that gave back the response, along with a power boost. Really pissed me off.

Throttle response in my 335i is excellent in "sport" and "sport+".
In "comfort" mode response is too slow requiring a larger pedal application to get the ECU to give more power.
With my current "sport mode config", my "chassis" settings are sport, but throttle and trans shift mode are in "comfort".
The adaptive suspension gives that option, but I really do want BMW to release software to allow us to select throttle response separately.
Ideally we should be able to select the mode for steering, throttle, suspension, and trans operation, and then save that as a default.
The ability to do that is already in place, BMW simply has to program the system to give us a screen where each item can be selected.

BMW! I'm still waiting! And, I think I'll be waiting 3 years from now when it's time for a new car. It's so freaking easy to do and a very logical way to do it. I still can't fathom this glaring oversight. They promote giving us driver selectable driving modes, but it's still very restrictive as to what we can actually select.
Yes, I'll continue to harp about this, because it's so freaking illogical in how BMW implemented driving "modes".
When did they figure out the HPFP issue? I thought the was the N55 lol As far as I still read the issures are there even on the 2010's.
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      10-22-2012, 01:33 PM   #86
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When did they figure out the HPFP issue? I thought the was the N55 lol As far as I still read the issures are there even on the 2010's.
If you recall, there was also HPFP failures with early N55's, as they were using the older design pumps.
The N55 wasn't a solution to the HPFP problem, as some people promoted that conspiracy theory.

BMW finally released a pump that works and isn't failing.
They released an "internal" recall, meaning it was BMW/self initiated.
Customers could come in and have their HPFP's replaced even if they had no problems.

That was the case with my 09 135i. My HPFP was fine, but I figured may as well get it replaced now that they have the issue sorted. No problems with the new pump either.

So basically, ever since that recall and that pump, any x35i engine that received the new replacement pump has not failed.
Cars that had 2, 3, or more replacements finally had a functioning HPFP after the recall.

I'm sure there are still some x35i turbo engines out there that didn't go in for the recall, or waited until their original pump failed, and then bring them in, and thus we're still reading and hearing about them.
But for the vast majority the newest pump fixed the problem, and the failure and re-failure rate has dropped significantly.
As I said, I think any failures we are hearing about now are more likely those who didn't do the recall, and I'm sure there are a few pumps here and there failing, but NOTHING like what was happening before.

The 10yr/120K warranty on the HPFP is still good too.
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      10-22-2012, 03:27 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
If you recall, there was also HPFP failures with early N55's, as they were using the older design pumps.
The N55 wasn't a solution to the HPFP problem, as some people promoted that conspiracy theory.

BMW finally released a pump that works and isn't failing.
They released an "internal" recall, meaning it was BMW/self initiated.
Customers could come in and have their HPFP's replaced even if they had no problems.

That was the case with my 09 135i. My HPFP was fine, but I figured may as well get it replaced now that they have the issue sorted. No problems with the new pump either.

So basically, ever since that recall and that pump, any x35i engine that received the new replacement pump has not failed.
Cars that had 2, 3, or more replacements finally had a functioning HPFP after the recall.

I'm sure there are still some x35i turbo engines out there that didn't go in for the recall, or waited until their original pump failed, and then bring them in, and thus we're still reading and hearing about them.
But for the vast majority the newest pump fixed the problem, and the failure and re-failure rate has dropped significantly.
As I said, I think any failures we are hearing about now are more likely those who didn't do the recall, and I'm sure there are a few pumps here and there failing, but NOTHING like what was happening before.

The 10yr/120K warranty on the HPFP is still good too.
Wow, ok cool. I didnt know they actually had a good pump now. Ill be honest, this really really entices me to search later on for a 09-10 335i m sport. They're so moddable and make tons of power cheap. It would finally make a good daily with 400hp worth of fun.

The e9x is still such a great car. And I hope they come out with some tunes for out f30's soon, I need about another 50-60 hp on tap to be satisfied.
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      10-24-2012, 03:50 PM   #88
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I have a confirmed production number from the dealer. Not sure of delivery but I would expect late december/early january.
So I talked to my dealer again about ordering the Z3B package and he said that it's not going to be available until 1st quarter. I told him that other's have production numbers but he told me that they may have production numbers but they won't be built until the package becomes available. He didn't think it would be available until 1st Qtr next year. You may want to confirm with your dealer on timelines.
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