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      07-16-2012, 10:38 PM   #23
Imola.ZHP
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Someone should do a cost analysis to see how many years it takes to recoup the premium at purchase...

Love the idea of all of this, just not sure it would be worth the extra $$, diesel might be the better option...
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      07-16-2012, 10:58 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I wonder how long that'll last? In truth, I would have thought that by now, so many in NOVA would buy hybrids and thus use 66 and 395's HOV lanes during rush hour that the governments would have ended the hybrid dispensation of which you speak. I live downtown and usually work outside the USA, so I almost never encounter bad traffic; maybe rush hour commuting around DC isn't as bad as I think.
That's a good question; I don't think anyone knows for sure. It was originally supposed to expire in 2006, but it has been reauthorized every year since.

And you're right, there are so many hybrids that it is starting to be an issue. The HOV lanes on 66 (particularly further west of the city) are clogged with cars, almost as bad as the regular lanes.

But, I think they've kept it for a couple of reasons: 1) money from the special tags generates a lot of additional revenue - for both the general fund, as well as a special assessment for the VA state police to enforce the HOV lanes; 2) when the legislature considers whether or not to re-up the deal, there is a very vocal citizenry (most likely those that have invested in hybrids) that engages elected officials to push the to reauthorize. And 3), although this is absolute and complete speculation, I wouldn't be surprised if VA car dealers - including Honda/Toyota, etc. lobby heavily to keep the exemption. I have to imagine that hybrid sales are tied directly to the ability to use the HOV lanes.
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      07-16-2012, 11:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
Someone should do a cost analysis to see how many years it takes to recoup the premium at purchase...

Love the idea of all of this, just not sure it would be worth the extra $$, diesel might be the better option...
Here you go:

A base 328i costs roughly $37K The hybrid starts at essentially $50K. Now before I even pick up my handy calculator, I can tell you it's going to take a long damn time or a huge increase in the price of gas to make up $13K.

So, if the hybrid gets 100 miles to the gallon, you need 100 gallons to go 10,000 miles. Gas is about $4/gallon, so it'll cost you $400 to drive those 10,000 miles. Let's say the 328 gets 25 miles to the gallon. You then need 400 gallons of gas to drive 10,000 miles, and that'll cost you $1600 at $4/gallon. So you will be recovering $1200/year in gas costs if you continue to drive 10K miles a year and gas remains at $4/gallon (For the past several months, I've actually been paying $3.51/gallon for my 93 octane, but I can do the math in my head more easily at $4/gallon.) At that rate, it'll take you 10.83 years to recover the cost.

Even if you double the price of gas to $8/gallon, it'll take you over five years to recover the premium you paid for getting the hybrid. Admittedly, I didn't consider any tax credits, loan interest, and whatnot, but I think you see the point, particularly since the hybrid gets nothing even close to 100/mpg.

Until the cost of a hybrid can be recouped in three or fewer years, there'll be little reason to buy one.

The recovery rate is:
Directly proportional to the price of gas
Indirectly proportional to the non-hybrid's fuel economy
Directly proportional to the hybrid's fuel economy
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      07-17-2012, 01:35 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
Someone should do a cost analysis to see how many years it takes to recoup the premium at purchase...

Love the idea of all of this, just not sure it would be worth the extra $$, diesel might be the better option...
Here you go:

A base 328i costs roughly $37K The hybrid starts at essentially $50K. Now before I even pick up my handy calculator, I can tell you it's going to take a long damn time or a huge increase in the price of gas to make up $13K.

So, if the hybrid gets 100 miles to the gallon, you need 100 gallons to go 10,000 miles. Gas is about $4/gallon, so it'll cost you $400 to drive those 10,000 miles. Let's say the 328 gets 25 miles to the gallon. You then need 400 gallons of gas to drive 10,000 miles, and that'll cost you $1600 at $4/gallon. So you will be recovering $1200/year in gas costs if you continue to drive 10K miles a year and gas remains at $4/gallon (For the past several months, I've actually been paying $3.51/gallon for my 93 octane, but I can do the math in my head more easily at $4/gallon.) At that rate, it'll take you 10.83 years to recover the cost.

Even if you double the price of gas to $8/gallon, it'll take you over five years to recover the premium you paid for getting the hybrid. Admittedly, I didn't consider any tax credits, loan interest, and whatnot, but I think you see the point, particularly since the hybrid gets nothing even close to 100/mpg.

Until the cost of a hybrid can be recouped in three or fewer years, there'll be little reason to buy one.

The recovery rate is:
Directly proportional to the price of gas
Indirectly proportional to the non-hybrid's fuel economy
Directly proportional to the hybrid's fuel economy
The ActiveHybrid 3 is NOT just about the gas mileage and money savings, folks. I guess some people just can't see beyond that. It's nice to get slightly better MPG, but it's not the main selling point of the car IMO.
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      07-17-2012, 02:58 AM   #27
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Hybrid in HOV Lane - Ca.

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Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
Nice! Wish I could in California but they don't permit hybrids anymore, only fully electric cars can take the HOV lane with single occupancy.
Actually the Chevy Volt gets the new stickers and it's a PI Hybrid.
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      07-17-2012, 03:53 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
The ActiveHybrid 3 is NOT just about the gas mileage and money savings, folks. I guess some people just can't see beyond that. It's nice to get slightly better MPG, but it's not the main selling point of the car IMO.
I would say the AH is NOT AT ALL about mileage, but about using an hybrid powerplant for better performance.
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      07-17-2012, 07:55 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Here you go:

A base 328i costs roughly $37K The hybrid starts at essentially $50K. Now before I even pick up my handy calculator, I can tell you it's going to take a long damn time or a huge increase in the price of gas to make up $13K.

So, if the hybrid gets 100 miles to the gallon, you need 100 gallons to go 10,000 miles. Gas is about $4/gallon, so it'll cost you $400 to drive those 10,000 miles. Let's say the 328 gets 25 miles to the gallon. You then need 400 gallons of gas to drive 10,000 miles, and that'll cost you $1600 at $4/gallon. So you will be recovering $1200/year in gas costs if you continue to drive 10K miles a year and gas remains at $4/gallon (For the past several months, I've actually been paying $3.51/gallon for my 93 octane, but I can do the math in my head more easily at $4/gallon.) At that rate, it'll take you 10.83 years to recover the cost.

Even if you double the price of gas to $8/gallon, it'll take you over five years to recover the premium you paid for getting the hybrid. Admittedly, I didn't consider any tax credits, loan interest, and whatnot, but I think you see the point, particularly since the hybrid gets nothing even close to 100/mpg.

Until the cost of a hybrid can be recouped in three or fewer years, there'll be little reason to buy one.

The recovery rate is:
Directly proportional to the price of gas
Indirectly proportional to the non-hybrid's fuel economy
Directly proportional to the hybrid's fuel economy
Not that your math is off but why are you comparing it with a base 328?

The car has the same performance as a 335i (even more HP/TQ) which has a base of $42,800 vs the active hybrid base of $49,300. Thats only a difference of $6500.

Redo your calculations with that model.
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      07-17-2012, 09:59 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Staszek View Post
Not that your math is off but why are you comparing it with a base 328?

The car has the same performance as a 335i (even more HP/TQ) which has a base of $42,800 vs the active hybrid base of $49,300. Thats only a difference of $6500.

Redo your calculations with that model.
Why do I need to redo the calculation? You do it. One can easily extrapolate the information I provided to apply to the 335. No additional calculation per se is needed. Surely you aren't saying it's not obvious that if it takes 10.83 years to recover $13K it must take half that time to recover half that amount, using the values of my example above? Similarly, if one halves the hybrid's mpg to a more realistic 50 mpg, it'll take the same 10.83 years to recover $6500, or 21+ years to recover $13K. The example I provided wasn't haphazardly developed.

Perhaps I'm being unduly sarcastic. Were you of the impression that the hybrid would get 100 mpg, or that 25 mpg is an implausible estimate for the non-hybrid? I don't really know what the hybrid's mpg is (will be), but I'm betting it won't be anything close to 100 mpg and that it will be something around 50 mpg at best. But I've lost bets before, perhaps I will this time too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
The ActiveHybrid 3 is NOT just about the gas mileage and money savings, folks. I guess some people just can't see beyond that. It's nice to get slightly better MPG, but it's not the main selling point of the car IMO.
So what is the main selling point? I would imagine there are some factors that make buying the hybrid "worth it." My point is simply that there aren't any quantitative monetary ones, along with responding to someone's (Imola I think???) request for an analysis of the cost difference's recovery interval.
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      07-17-2012, 10:18 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwickers View Post
I would say the AH is NOT AT ALL about mileage, but about using an hybrid powerplant for better performance.
This. Better fuel economy is a benefit. The real reason is to showcase the technology. Hybrid cars are hot and the luxury hybrid market even more so. Porsche, Lexus, VW in the Toureg and others are in this market.
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      07-17-2012, 10:26 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Why do I need to redo the calculation? You do it. One can easily extrapolate the information I provided to apply to the 335. No additional calculation per se is needed. Surely you aren't saying it's not obvious that if it takes 10.83 years to recover $13K it must take half that time to recover half that amount, using the values of my example above? Similarly, if one halves the hybrid's mpg to a more realistic 50 mpg, it'll take the same 10.83 years to recover $6500, or 21+ years to recover $13K. The example I provided wasn't haphazardly developed.

Perhaps I'm being unduly sarcastic. Were you of the impression that the hybrid would get 100 mpg, or that 25 mpg is an implausible estimate for the non-hybrid? I don't really know what the hybrid's mpg is (will be), but I'm betting it won't be anything close to 100 mpg and that it will be something around 50 mpg at best. But I've lost bets before, perhaps I will this time too...



So what is the main selling point? I would imagine there are some factors that make buying the hybrid "worth it." My point is simply that there aren't any quantitative monetary ones, along with responding to someone's (Imola I think???) request for an analysis of the cost difference's recovery interval.
Sarcasm is an understatement. Relax, I was just stating why did you pick the 328, and also they are not as far off as you made it sound.

5 Years on average most Americans drive 60,000 miles (although that has raised we will keep it there).

40mpg for the hybrid at 3.80 a gallon for prem currently comes out to a 5 year cost of $5700.

25mpg for a 335i at 3.80 a gallon for prem comes out to 5 years at $9120.

So that is $3420 difference, and hence why I stated use the 335 not the 328. That makes the price of entry difference only $3080. Still may not be worth it to most, but its a much better look then $10,000 and it also doesnt take into account rebates in some states as well as HOV lane use.

The other thing it doesnt take into account is the highly congested driver. My 330 use to get 24mpg in a mix of 70/30 highway. Now I get closer to 15mpg because I am 80/20 city driving.

That is where the hybrid shines and I could easily eat up the $3000 difference over 5 years. Not to mention it most likely will have a bit higher resale value.

This car isnt for everyone, and its not meant as a payback measure like say a prius, but its also not super overly priced for what it offers.

As for the main selling point, I get performance on par if not slightly better then the 335i and I can get 10-15mpg better then the 335i. Especially if you lease, you could probably come out as a wash in monthly payments.
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      07-17-2012, 10:53 AM   #33
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... I would love to see a active Hybrid F32 .... a coupe of this would be stellar

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      07-17-2012, 12:08 PM   #34
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Will this qualify (and will it still exist?!) for the federal tax credits? Those are $7500, so the payback period now becomes mostly a mute point - faster car (although more complex) for about the same price.
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      07-17-2012, 03:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staszek View Post
Not that your math is off but why are you comparing it with a base 328?

The car has the same performance as a 335i (even more HP/TQ) which has a base of $42,800 vs the active hybrid base of $49,300. Thats only a difference of $6500.

Redo your calculations with that model.
Why do I need to redo the calculation? You do it. One can easily extrapolate the information I provided to apply to the 335. No additional calculation per se is needed. Surely you aren't saying it's not obvious that if it takes 10.83 years to recover $13K it must take half that time to recover half that amount, using the values of my example above? Similarly, if one halves the hybrid's mpg to a more realistic 50 mpg, it'll take the same 10.83 years to recover $6500, or 21+ years to recover $13K. The example I provided wasn't haphazardly developed.

Perhaps I'm being unduly sarcastic. Were you of the impression that the hybrid would get 100 mpg, or that 25 mpg is an implausible estimate for the non-hybrid? I don't really know what the hybrid's mpg is (will be), but I'm betting it won't be anything close to 100 mpg and that it will be something around 50 mpg at best. But I've lost bets before, perhaps I will this time too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
The ActiveHybrid 3 is NOT just about the gas mileage and money savings, folks. I guess some people just can't see beyond that. It's nice to get slightly better MPG, but it's not the main selling point of the car IMO.
So what is the main selling point? I would imagine there are some factors that make buying the hybrid "worth it." My point is simply that there aren't any quantitative monetary ones, along with responding to someone's (Imola I think???) request for an analysis of the cost difference's recovery interval.
You don't buy a BMW to begin with for monetary reasons. You buy a Honda Accord for monetary reasons. You buy a BMW because it's exciting to drive.
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      07-17-2012, 07:38 PM   #36
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You don't buy a BMW to begin with for monetary reasons. You buy a Honda Accord for monetary reasons. You buy a BMW because it's exciting to drive.
If this is the case, the hybrid is an exceedingly poor choice - even more so when one factors in bang for the buck.

This machine is exciting only if you are turned-on by the technology.

Not that there is anything wrong with that . . .
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      07-19-2012, 06:18 AM   #37
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Quote:
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Quote:
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You don't buy a BMW to begin with for monetary reasons. You buy a Honda Accord for monetary reasons. You buy a BMW because it's exciting to drive.
If this is the case, the hybrid is an exceedingly poor choice - even more so when one factors in bang for the buck.

This machine is exciting only if you are turned-on by the technology.

Not that there is anything wrong with that . . .
Then don't buy one.

Clearly, some folks just don't realize the brilliance of what BMW has created with the AH3. I feel bad for the engineers who created it because they built a product for people who can't see its value. Then again, I guess the fault of that would fall upon BMW's marketing team.
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      07-20-2012, 11:29 PM   #38
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Will the US government be pitching in any tax incentives to help overcome the cost differential?

This would have an effect on the overall time to recoup the initial price-tag hike...

Thanks for the calculations Tony! There are no special privileges here where I live for hybrid owners (that I am aware of). I do, however, live less than 3 miles from work, if she could travel back and forth 5 days a week on 0 gasoline that would be nice! I agree with you though, hybrids need to be able to recoup the cost within a few years. 10.86 is NUTS, half of that (if fuel shot up to $8/gal) is still too long!
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      07-21-2012, 08:19 AM   #39
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The tax credit is only for plug-in hybrids and electric vehicles.
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      11-14-2012, 10:56 PM   #40
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there is currently a $3500 eco credit on the active3 plus a $1000 holiday cash if you finance or lease it through BMW financial.
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      11-14-2012, 11:24 PM   #41
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I really dont get y would one want to buy the active hybrid, if ur buying a $60k car and you want to save money on fuel somehthing is not right, its slower than the 335, if u want to save on fuel than i think 328 would be a better option, or a prius if u want to save money, or the volt
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      02-16-2013, 10:21 AM   #42
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Or, try living in Thailand where the price is double what you pay in the West regardless of which model you choose. On top of that, the official BMW Dealerships only stock the following models:

320i, 325i, 328i, 320d...or the newly released AH3.

I'd love to order a 335i and my options are as follows:

- Go to the official BMW dealership and get the AH3 (with the M Sport package, 20" wheels and adaptive running gear).
- Go to one of the many importers and buy (or have them import) whatever model you like - but realise that no official BMW dealer will service your car.

Right now, the AH3 looks like the one for me....
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      02-16-2013, 10:49 PM   #43
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Im locking in the programs this month to lease an Active Hybrid 3 that is at the VPC. I will probably buy it early next month and do a Pull-ahead on my 550xi GT lease. My gas savings will be alot 18mpg vs. 40-42mpg. I will be picking up a Silver/Black Msport with Drivers Asst, Premium, Technology, Sport Auto, Lane Dept, Alum trim, Prem Sound, Blk Grills - I cant wait!

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      02-16-2013, 10:54 PM   #44
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Im locking in the programs this month to lease an Active Hybrid 3 that is at the VPC. I will probably buy it early next month and do a Pull-ahead on my 550xi GT lease. My gas savings will be alot 18mpg vs. 40-42mpg. I will be picking up a Silver/Black Msport with Drivers Asst, Premium, Technology, Sport Auto, Lane Dept, Alum trim, Prem Sound, Blk Grills - I cant wait!

DJ
Very good. Be sure and post a review. Not to burst your bubble, but 40mpg is not really doable, even on the highway. The EPA rates it at 25/28/33, and that's about what most owners (including myself) are experiencing.
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