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      11-07-2012, 05:44 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by kirklander View Post
BavarianFanatic, don't forget; according to you, there is no vibration whatsoever at all. We are still hyping for fun right.
Re-read my posts my friend. I didn't say it doesn't exist. I draw the line when people go out of their way to try to prove that they do, especially when they didn't previously think they had an issue. That's just ridiculous.
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      11-07-2012, 05:50 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by cardnation View Post
Haha, so "lug centric" a "hub centric" wheel?

Not sure about you, but my eyeballing tolerances aren't up to spec.
It would be pretty obvious. The less fallible option is to actually jack the car, remove the lugs (or just loosen them) and see if there's ANY radial movement of the wheel on the hub. There should be zero movement. It don't think there's any reason to pull out the calipers to measure to the thousandths of an inch.

It's also possible to center a hub centric wheel with the tapered seat lugs. It's plausible this is why folks saw improvements following wheel balancing and other services where the wheels were removed.
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      11-18-2012, 01:42 PM   #685
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Thumbs up Update*** Car fixed

After 5 months of ownership I finally got by F30 fixed.

My dealership Dreyer and Reinbold in Indianapolis has been great. They stayed on BMW NA until they finally sent out an engineer last week.

Here is what they fixed on my car which was a 03/2012 build date. Base model with premium package, BSM paint and the great 8-speed ZF.

- Four new 225/50/17 Michelin Primacy MXM4 ZP tires
- New steering rack and software upgrade
- Alignment and spin balance of the tires

Once I picked it up I was pleased. In hind site I think probably 80% of the issue was the junk Continental Pro Contact 5 SSR tires.

My car finally is back to how it should be. The F30 inherently has a "lighter" steering feel that any other BMW I have owned but I can deal with that.

Thanks to Eddie Grabinowski for providing excellent customer service and staying engaged in the concerns. Also, for the pimped out X5 I got to drive while my car was getting fixed.

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      11-18-2012, 01:56 PM   #686
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^^ interesting. Glad to hear its sorted. I wonder if "new" steering rack is the same as old, just new... Or a new part design?
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      11-18-2012, 02:40 PM   #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f30Indy View Post
After 5 months of ownership I finally got by F30 fixed.

My dealership Dreyer and Reinbold in Indianapolis has been great. They stayed on BMW NA until they finally sent out an engineer last week.

Here is what they fixed on my car which was a 03/2012 build date. Base model with premium package, BSM paint and the great 8-speed ZF.

- Four new 225/50/17 Michelin Primacy MXM4 ZP tires
- New steering rack and software upgrade
- Alignment and spin balance of the tires

Once I picked it up I was pleased. In hind site I think probably 80% of the issue was the junk Continental Pro Contact 5 SSR tires.

My car finally is back to how it should be. The F30 inherently has a "lighter" steering feel that any other BMW I have owned but I can deal with that.

Thanks to Eddie Grabinowski for providing excellent customer service and staying engaged in the concerns. Also, for the pimped out X5 I got to drive while my car was getting fixed.

I'm really happy you finally got your car fixed.

Why do you think that it was mostly the tires? I have the Continentals on my 2013 and have no vibration. I've driven 2 F30s that did have the vibration and I thought it felt mechanical or even electrical in nature. It didn't feel like a tire issue to me.

Of course I have no idea what caused it. I'm just glad my car doesn't do it. Hopefully you'll be trouble free from now on!
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      11-19-2012, 08:14 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Alpine F31 View Post
I'm really happy you finally got your car fixed.

Why do you think that it was mostly the tires? I have the Continentals on my 2013 and have no vibration. I've driven 2 F30s that did have the vibration and I thought it felt mechanical or even electrical in nature. It didn't feel like a tire issue to me.

Of course I have no idea what caused it. I'm just glad my car doesn't do it. Hopefully you'll be trouble free from now on!
I think on mine it was more the tires because the overall ride and handling is so much better now. I do think there is an issue with the steering rack and maybe just the suspension geometry as whole and some cars are effected in different ways. This is my opinion just as an owner though. I'm just pleased it was taken care of.
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      11-19-2012, 10:16 PM   #689
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That's awesome! Even more encouraging to hear of the difference in ride and handling made by better tires.

We have Pirelli tires as OEM up here, which have proven to be good performers. I'm wondering if this difference in OEM tires is manifesting in the wide range of opinions on the steering feel as well as the several different iterations of steering racks and associated software...

Seems like they may have had a bit of a "work in progress" for the first several months of production. Hopefully they continue to improve things.
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      11-19-2012, 10:54 PM   #690
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How many times do we have to go through this?

IT IS NOT A TIRE ISSUE.
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      11-20-2012, 12:15 PM   #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardnation View Post
How many times do we have to go through this?

IT IS NOT A TIRE ISSUE.
I do get that. But quality of tires can greatly reduce the issue. That is why I had said it is a combo of the new style electronic steering rack and the overall suspension geometry.
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      11-20-2012, 02:07 PM   #692
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So any more stories of high mileage people having this disappear? I've seen 2 or 3 people report that in this thread after reading it from beginning to end, one person noted that around 3-4k they noticed it went away. I am around 2600 miles right now and have noted that the oscillations are starting to minimize. whether this is due to some sort of breaking in or wearing of the tires I am not sure. I'll give it another 500 miles and see what happens.
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      11-20-2012, 05:02 PM   #693
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I was at 9900 miles and it was still doing it until the fix.
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      11-20-2012, 06:19 PM   #694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardnation View Post
How many times do we have to go through this?

IT IS NOT A TIRE ISSUE.
Tires are clearly involved, (as changing tires can and have sorted the issue), although they may not be the only part of the problem.

It does appear that the problem fits the definition of steering nibble, smooth road shake (SRS), torsion nibble. Definitely discussed in the technical articles on EPAS. This does often involve wheels and tires. Typical causes of SRS, to quote:

Quote:
SRS is caused by internal periodic excitation such as wheel imbalances, tire irregularities, brake rotor imbalance and lack of precision piloting of the rotating members.
EPAS typically has some form of active nibble control. Personally I can't see BMW having anything less than state of the art EPAS, but something is not cancelling out the nibble in all cars. There must be some frequency in some cars which excites the vibration. Changing wheel/tires can cancel this out, as balancing has done on some examples. Even mileage on the tires is changing this excitation in some cases.

I suggest BMW will be seeking better control of the excitation and damping/cancelling function, which controls the feedback loop to the steering wheel.

BTW, there are several new patents offering solutions to this vibration problem, in EPAS systems, plus it is clearly not just a BMW issue. In fact the same thing can happen in HPAS systems, and some studies have been carried out where EPAS appears to offer better control of SRS and steering nibble.

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      11-20-2012, 06:43 PM   #695
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58 reports in this thread so far of owners with a vibration issue.

9 say they had their problem fixed by various methods.
2 say the problem disappeared on its own.

A few have had the problem reduced somewhat, but I didn't count them.

Now not everyone had complete car info, but this is what I could gather from those that did:

None are xDrive.
Only one has reported having VSS.

7 of the reports are 2013 builds (at least).
6 of the reports are 335i, so they are not immune.

...make of that what you will...

Meanwhile, I'll be knocking on wood and keeping my fingers crossed...
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      11-21-2012, 11:24 AM   #696
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I haven't viewed this thread in a while and am amazed to see it is now 32 pages long.

I want to post an update to my steering vibration issue as I had previously posted the issue was fixed with a new tire and a road force balance and alignment. I am happy to report that my car now has 6800 miles and the vibration has NOT reappeared.
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      11-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Tires are clearly involved, (as changing tires can and have sorted the issue), although they may not be the only part of the problem.

It does appear that the problem fits the definition of steering nibble, smooth road shake (SRS), torsion nibble. Definitely discussed in the technical articles on EPAS. This does often involve wheels and tires. Typical causes of SRS, to quote:



EPAS typically has some form of active nibble control. Personally I can't see BMW having anything less than state of the art EPAS, but something is not cancelling out the nibble in all cars. There must be some frequency in some cars which excites the vibration. Changing wheel/tires can cancel this out, as balancing has done on some examples. Even mileage on the tires is changing this excitation in some cases.

I suggest BMW will be seeking better control of the excitation and damping/cancelling function, which controls the feedback loop to the steering wheel.

BTW, there are several new patents offering solutions to this vibration problem, in EPAS systems, plus it is clearly not just a BMW issue. In fact the same thing can happen in HPAS systems, and some studies have been carried out where EPAS appears to offer better control of SRS and steering nibble.

HighlandPete
My point is, the tires/road force balance may reduce the issue to a point where it is not perceivable, but that does not address the root problem.

No (street) car should be that sensitive to require a 100% 'perfect' tire/balance.

How many cars in your lifetime can you say with conviction that the tires were always 100% balanced?

Until two months ago, my answer was ZERO. Now I have a set of wheels/tires that are 100%, having been road force balance on two totally different machines.

In the end, this did nothing to cure my steering oscillation and actually they are worse on some road surfaces than my factory wheel/tires.
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      11-26-2012, 04:23 AM   #698
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Mounted my winter set (styling 413 with Pirelle Sottozero 225/50R17), and I fully back in vibration territory.
The vibration characteristic is different.
With 6000 km on the summer tires the vibration was no longer visible in the steering wheel, but i could feel it. I got sort off used to it.
The winter set shows visible vibrations (shimmy) at 100 km/u or 60 mph.
Going back for some balancing.
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      11-26-2012, 12:47 PM   #699
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Angry BMWs reply

Hello All,

I am new to this forum but not to the problem. I am dealing with this issue for the last 5 month and to put it simply I am fed up with the BS I am getting from the dealer..
I got my tires, rims, brake pads, steering rack replaced and the vibration is still there.

This morning I got a reply from BMW itself that is again total BS:

In addition to my personal test-drive with your vehicle, we have also consulted with the technical specialists at BMW AG. As you will no doubt appreciate, we are not in a position to comment on the various cases in the internet, due to the fact that they spread randomly over different models, different options and different approaches. Apart from that, we believe that the responsive, direct and sensitive behaviour of a BMW's steering is one of the unique selling points for our rear-wheel drive products, and this fact may certainly astonish customers who switch from a front- or all-wheel-drive vehicle to a BMW.

In your case, we rely on the expert diagnosis from Abu Dhabi Motors and the analysis by BMW AG, based on the present data. It is safe to say that your BMW 320i complies to BMW specifications and the described movement in the steering wheel is within our given tolerances. It is correct that this movement – resulting from the natural play between all components of the steering – can vary in the characteristics depending on the options chosen for a vehicle, i.e. tire brand, tire size, rims size, or the type of steering support, which is why certain modifications or adjustments can be carried out. It also varies in perception, as it is not noticeable when you hold the steering wheel firmly as recommended in the owner's manual.
....

I am very close to hold the steering wheel firmly and crash my car into the dealership so we can end this discussion

Any thoughts???
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      11-26-2012, 01:41 PM   #700
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I'd question why they felt it was necessary to replace half the front end if the vehicle was "within (their) given tolerances".

I'd also ask for a copy of their acceptable tolerance amplitude for oscillation within the steering system, or whatever applicable tolerance metric they are using to make this determination.

I'd try to find a model to test drive with the same options and tires as yours, and see if the steering still vibrates. If it doesn't, I'd aim for a swap. This would clearly demonstrate that it's vehicle-specific, not option-driven.
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      11-26-2012, 02:28 PM   #701
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I would sue them! Once again I can't understand why they try to BS us customers. Be correct and say that we have a known fault, BMW AG is working on a fix, until they find it we'll have to wait.... That would be the only honest thing to do...
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      11-28-2012, 07:06 PM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeezz View Post
So any more stories of high mileage people having this disappear?
I posted on this thread back in August: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showth...4#post12454054

The dealer had swapped out my tires (replaced Pirellis with Goodyears) and did the road force balance which did not significantly mitigate my steering wheel vibration. I think they hoped I would just live with it.

I now have over 10k miles on the odometer and I must say that the vibration has gotten progressively less prominent to the point that I sometimes don't notice it. (I'm sure that I didn't just get used to it). I'm well into a short 30 month lease and the nearest dealer is a fair distance away so I think I'll just ride it out.

Pretty happy with the car otherwise. Nice performance and excellent gas mileage.
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      11-30-2012, 02:24 PM   #703
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update: they balanced my winter set but reported they were not satisfied with the results. The road balance machine is available next week so they requested my car back another day. Don't like that off course, but I do like the fact they are honest and putting in all the effort they can.
Meanwhile, they arranged a driver and a 535 GT to bring me back home, and pick me up in the afternoon in another 5 series with driver
I getting the hang of the CEO feel
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      12-01-2012, 04:31 AM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDS View Post
Hello All,

I am new to this forum but not to the problem. I am dealing with this issue for the last 5 month and to put it simply I am fed up with the BS I am getting from the dealer..
I got my tires, rims, brake pads, steering rack replaced and the vibration is still there.

This morning I got a reply from BMW itself that is again total BS:

In addition to my personal test-drive with your vehicle, we have also consulted with the technical specialists at BMW AG. As you will no doubt appreciate, we are not in a position to comment on the various cases in the internet, due to the fact that they spread randomly over different models, different options and different approaches. Apart from that, we believe that the responsive, direct and sensitive behaviour of a BMW's steering is one of the unique selling points for our rear-wheel drive products, and this fact may certainly astonish customers who switch from a front- or all-wheel-drive vehicle to a BMW.

In your case, we rely on the expert diagnosis from Abu Dhabi Motors and the analysis by BMW AG, based on the present data. It is safe to say that your BMW 320i complies to BMW specifications and the described movement in the steering wheel is within our given tolerances. It is correct that this movement – resulting from the natural play between all components of the steering – can vary in the characteristics depending on the options chosen for a vehicle, i.e. tire brand, tire size, rims size, or the type of steering support, which is why certain modifications or adjustments can be carried out. It also varies in perception, as it is not noticeable when you hold the steering wheel firmly as recommended in the owner's manual.
....

I am very close to hold the steering wheel firmly and crash my car into the dealership so we can end this discussion

Any thoughts???
I've had a bit of different experience with AD motors .. I took mine in several months back and they attempted a road force/wheel balance but the torsional vibration did (and still) persist ... I took it in a week later for a second test drive with their QIC and I was told BMW is aware of the situation and a solution is on the way .. I followed up with them just a couple of weeks back and was told a new steering rack has been developed which apparently mitigates the problem ... Im still waiting for them to call me in for a steering rack change .. In my case AD motors has always, albeit verbally, agreed that there is a problem and BMW is working on it ...

When did you get your steering rack changed? Did they install one of those "new" racks?
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