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      11-21-2012, 10:31 PM   #133
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I've been have been a BMW fanatic back to the E30 days and reading car enthusiast magazines from US, UK and Canada for decades and I don't recall one article where they have criticized BMW for their "emphasize too much on sport."

Quite the contrary, BMW wins most enthusiasts comparisons BECAUSE of their sportiness feel, balance, handling and connection to the road. Back in the E36 days, 325i weren't always the fastest, but by being more "sporty" it won comparision test for these reasons. Bottome line, BMW's were more fun to drive. This established BMW 3-Series as the ultimate sports sedan that journalists is the model that others tried to copy.

Circa 2013 model and the tables are turned, with the ATS being more sporty, essentially beating BMW at it's own game. And so BMW loses this comparison because it was too numb, inferior handling, i.e., not sporty, not fun to drive compared to the Caddy. This is very consistent with the past, so I'm not sure why some of you are being defensive. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I for one am happy that Caddy (of all brands) has raised the standard. Now it's up to BMW to respond to become even better than before. This is good for all of us future potential buyers.
+1. People nitpick at small things and say that the F30 may not be the best at everything but it's the most balanced so that's why it should win over the ATS. Well Audi isn't the best at everything so why isn't anyone saying Audi should top BMW in comparisons? Oh yeah, because BMW is the more fun car to drive. Why don't we apply the same rules for the ATS? Because they're Cadillac? At the end of the day, ATS beat BMW and the 3-Series at their own game.

You may prefer to buy the F30 because of x and y but it's no longer the best in the segment which is determined on which car is the most fun/sporty.
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      11-21-2012, 10:46 PM   #134
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I may be the only one in this boat but I really think that the ATS looks cooler than the other 2. it looks strange but in a good way, and I really like it's front and rear although I'm not sold on the side profile. I'm really glad that finally cadillac is making performance oriented cars which can compete with german engineering. I am a BMW fan and although I wouldn't buy an ATS (I'd buy a used m3 or vette instead), I hope that competition would make BMW put more effort in the cars they are making as the last gen isn't as shocking or cool as some previous ones (I find em pretty boring to be honest)
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      11-21-2012, 11:08 PM   #135
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Both Mercedes and Cadillac are trying to beat BMW at their own game by building better SPORTS Sedans and this time they have succeeded. BMW one the other hand, is trying to soften their cars so they can appeal to a wider customer base. This is basically the gist I get from reading comparison articles these days and I would have to agree. You can't get a sporty BMW these days without check-marking a bunch of options, and that's not even including the mandatory M-sport option. In the old days, any 3 series with just the sports package was a pleasure to drive.

Looks are subjective but I think the f30 is the most bloated looking of the three. I was on the BMWusa website today and there was a side-by-side picture with an f30 next to an f10, the f30 even looks bloated compared to the f10!
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      11-21-2012, 11:47 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnook View Post
Takeaways:

1. BMW really needs to redo the front bumper on the 3 series to make it more agreesive and pretty. The M Sport bumper shows just how much of an improvement a new bumper can make.

2. Reviewers of iDrive always forget to mention the programmable memory buttons, which make it even easier to use. And the hover-over feature is great!

3. Mercedes command centre sucks.

4. Cadillac... where are the buttons!? Touch surfaces suck (not to be confused with touch screens).

5. The reviewer doesn't like the 3 series driving experience because its too sophisticated. He wants less sophistication and more raw, scary driving with a hard bumpy suspension and heavy steering. Yeah I'll stick with my 335i thanks.
The ATS wasn't out when I ordered my Msport but I would test driven it if it was.

I finally got a chance to sit not drive in an ATS 2.0.
I really like their sport seats, somewhat rivals the BMW in comfort.
The thigh bolsters feel better/thicker in the ATS.
Over all the BMW seats are better as the let/thigh extensions feel better.

ATS steering wheel NOT as good as Msport. ATS rim is too thin similar to sport line, but sport line wheel looks better.
There is a bit more left shoulder room in the ATS as the inner door panel doesn't intrude like the 3 series, which curves towards the driver. I don't understand why BMW did that. If they would have simply left the door panel flat along the whole length it would be more comfortable, not that it's bad, but comparatively the ATS is a bit better in that aspect.

The CUE system looks pretty, but using it SUCKS.
Back to the drawing board Cadillac. Touch response sucks, very delayed..
When you touch the screen the panel kind of moves to make it feel as if you've touched a button. Fail. Instead it feels like the panel is loose.
Doesn't feel good.

Pictures don't do the ATS justice. In person it has some really cool lines.
It's different, but it's a cool different. It certainly isn't generic. It's quite unique. The exhaust finishers are sweet, nicer than my Msport.
The only odd part is the rear trunk lip when looked at from the side. It gives the car an unneeded longer look. It could be better.
The sport wheels on the 2.0 sport I saw were BORING, very bland.
BMW still has most makers beat on wheels design and finish.
I'm really looking forward to test driving one.
So far, great job by Cadillac.
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      11-21-2012, 11:48 PM   #137
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It all depends on what you are looking for! In my book the 335i wins because its the fastest of the 3. I have not driven the ATS but I have driven the MB C on a Auto Cross track and it was terrible it was like a boat on land rolling all over the place.

As he said the 335i has the least amount of power but the fastest of the three. That there is a win in my book!!
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      11-21-2012, 11:54 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by S-Dot View Post
I think slightly stiffer springs, maybe thicker roll bars, and maybe a steering tweak will help the 3 series. It doesn't need much, really.

Personally, I found the 328i a much better corner-carver than the 335i. But I bought an xDrive machine, which changes the equation entirely.
Really?

There isn't much difference at all between the 328i sport and 335i sport in terms of handling. Both are built on the same chassis.
The 328i has slightly less weight up front, but that only gives initial steering a slight advantage. I changed the tires on my Msport to non RFT's and the steering response has improved, it now has a slightly lighter and quicker response.

The handling difference between the 328i and 335i is very slight and mostly shows its self on a track. Over all both versions are pretty much the same for the obvious reason, they are on the same chassis.
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      11-21-2012, 11:57 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
im not finding much of a difference in handling characteristics between the two
That's what I say.
And, you have the experience of actually living with both versions.
I'm finding the argument that the 328i is a "better" handler to be over stated, and it seems to come up often when 328i owners start to claim superiority over the 335i, or when threads pop up trying to demean the 335i.
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      11-21-2012, 11:59 PM   #140
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I am tired of youtube car reviews, they are not even entertaining any more. Not everyone could be a Jeremy Clarkson, apparently.
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      11-22-2012, 12:09 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by LindaTheCat View Post
I am tired of youtube car reviews, they are not even entertaining any more. Not everyone could be a Jeremy Clarkson, apparently.
+1 on that one!!!

I cant wait for next season. At least you know they will push the cars to the limits instead of these grandma strolls on the hill side.
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      11-22-2012, 12:13 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
That's what I say.
And, you have the experience of actually living with both versions.
I'm finding the argument that the 328i is a "better" handler to be over stated, and it seems to come up often when 328i owners start to claim superiority over the 335i, or when threads pop up trying to demean the 335i.
+1
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      11-22-2012, 12:13 AM   #143
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Right, because the 328 outperforms the 335, only thing it beats the 335 at is gas mileage!
This MPG thing comes up a lot, but where's the proof?

At this point the 328i AT and 335i AT have the same MPG rating city and highway. For day to day driving I don't see how there would be much difference in MPG as both cars use the same trans with the same gearing, and will require the same power output.

The actual MPG difference will be seen when the 335i is driven harder as it puts out more power.
But for daily driving there isn't going to be that much of an MPG difference created by the 145lb difference between the versions.
Yes, there will be some difference in MPG especially with drivers who are more aggressive in either version.
However it seems much comment is made about how the 328i has such better MPG over the 335i. But let's see the actual difference. How muc is it really? It may be 1 to 3mpg. Is that enough so that one chooses the 328i over the 335i, if one only used MPG as the deciding factor?
It's not like the difference is 5mpg or higher.

I'm averaging between 25.5 to 27mpg in my 335i Msport w/sport AT on sticky summer high performance tires, and that includes daily commuting with spirited driving in the mix.
My 135i 6MT only managed between 21.5 to 22mpg and it was a lighter coupe, driven in the same manner on the same routes.
With the 8spd AT it's actually quite impressive how good of an MPG the 335i does get
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      11-22-2012, 12:14 AM   #144
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I am tired of youtube car reviews, they are not even entertaining any more. Not everyone could be a Jeremy Clarkson, apparently.
this one is very entertaining .... i mean he's test driving the car at the dealership parking lot

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      11-22-2012, 12:17 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by swanson View Post
[/b]

Oh please. Fanbois have been saying all along that the 3 series is the "drivers car". The new 3 series has been beat fair and square.
It IS a drivers car, when equipped with the proper gear, namely the sport/Msport package, and then driven in "sport/sport+" mode.
And other modes and packages are deemed too civilized for a "sport" sedan.

BTW, do you own an F30, or are you here just to poke at actual F30 owners whenever you read something about the F30 that favors your view of it?
Hmmmm?
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      11-22-2012, 12:17 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
This MPG thing comes up a lot, but where's the proof?

At this point the 328i AT and 335i AT have the same MPG rating city and highway. For day to day driving I don't see how there would be much difference in MPG as both cars use the same trans with the same gearing, and will require the same power output.

The actual MPG difference will be seen when the 335i is driven harder as it puts out more power.
But for daily driving there isn't going to be that much of an MPG difference created by the 145lb difference between the versions.
Yes, there will be some difference in MPG especially with drivers who are more aggressive in either version.
However it seems much comment is made about how the 328i has such better MPG over the 335i. But let's see the actual difference. How muc is it really? It may be 1 to 3mpg. Is that enough so that one chooses the 328i over the 335i, if one only used MPG as the deciding factor?
It's not like the difference is 5mpg or higher.

I'm averaging between 25.5 to 27mpg in my 335i Msport w/sport AT on sticky summer high performance tires, and that includes daily commuting with spirited driving in the mix.
My 135i 6MT only managed between 21.5 to 22mpg and it was a lighter coupe, driven in the same manner on the same routes.
With the 8spd AT it's actually quite impressive how good of an MPG the 335i does get
I was driving my 328i loaner pretty hard today. 20.0 MPG. Beat that!
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      11-22-2012, 12:20 AM   #147
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A335i turns heads?
It turned yours, otherwise why are you here, you know, on an F30 enthusiast site?

My Msport turns heads. I've had many compliments on it.
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      11-22-2012, 12:20 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
It IS a drivers car, when equipped with the proper gear, namely the sport/Msport package, and then driven in "sport/sport+" mode.
And other modes and packages are deemed too civilized for a "sport" sedan.

BTW, do you own an F30, or are you here just to poke at actual F30 owners whenever you read something about the F30 that favors your view of it?
Hmmmm?
It's ok. Haters always gunna hate.
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      11-22-2012, 12:28 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Cisitalia View Post
Well I thought overall the ATS was better than the 3 series that is why I bought one. That is from a long time German car lover and BMWCCA member for 15 years. I could have bought any BMW or German car in that segment, but I thought the new ATS did better overall. Some people should try looking outside of the box.

Certain things BMW does better at and the ATS does better at other things. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I am so tired of the BMW look and the ATS looks way more modern and fresh, from inside to outside. The 3 series just keeps getting bigger, heavier and uglier. I say the only thing now going for it is the wonderful N54/N55 engine.

I got the 2013 ATS premium 3.6L V6 with magnetic ride suspension, Brembo front brakes and a real LSD. I think the CUE is wonderful and works great and no complaints. The interior quality is much better than the 3 series.

Some people are not open minded and have made up their minds, before they even look objectively at other options. Well to each their own.
Congrats on the new ATS!
Nice set up too.

CUE works well? Maybe the one I tried had problems because using it really sucked. Might have been a bad one though.

I like the ATS interior, it's very nice and the materials have a nice feel.
I like the dash surrounded in stitched leather, if it's' leather, I couldn't tell.
But it felt good and looks great.

I agree that people should be open minded and judge things once they have actually tried it.
At the same time, you must then accept that there are and will be those who have tried it and didn't like it no matter if you think it's new and fresh.
Not everyone likes the same things.
I don't find the F30's design boring at all. It's very fresh to my eyes.
After the not so great to look at early E90 the F30 is quite refreshing.
The facelift on the E90 did wonders for it, but that interior was gawd awful.
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      11-22-2012, 12:32 AM   #150
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I don't understand why the 2013 S4 isn't in this review. It's stock performance is higher than these three. They had a head 2 head video a while ago with the 2012 S4 vs the F30 335i and the S4 won but they don't put the face-lifted 2013 in the new review? The real contest is 2013 S4 vs 335i vs ATS 3.6, leave out the MB, it's beautiful inside and out but not in the same league performance-wise.
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      11-22-2012, 12:43 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnook View Post
On BMW...
"theres something kind of clinical about it..."
"you kind of want things to be firm..."

On Mercedes...
"great stiff neutral chassis...Cadillac's chassis is even stiffer"

On Cadillac...
"goes around corners better than it goes in a straight line..."
"the ride is on the firm side of firm, in fact I'd call it harsh, which I happen to really like..."

I think BMW will tweak the steering and suspension a bit and they will be well served by doing this. However in this comparison the reviewer places a bit too much emphasis on having a hard suspension and heavy steering. Certainly not what I'm looking for in a sports sedan. Sports car yes, sports sedan no.
I'm surprised the reviewer praised the "harsh" ride, as he calls it, considering it had the magnetic dampers, which are supposed to NOT be harsh but in control.

Why not a 335i with M adaptive then to equal out the test?

I agree the sport/Msport suspension could be firmer, but the damping quality is great. The M adaptive is even better. It controls the springs very well. The springs could be 30-40% stiffer and that should help satisfy most sport sedan drivers.
I'm not too pleased with why BMW choose to soften up the sport suspension. It's fine to do that on the base, lux, or modern versions so as to attract more buyers, but I don't recall sport package buyers complaining that the sport suspension in the E46 or E90 were too firm.
Easy to correct though and BMW should.

As for the steering effort, BMW shot themselves in the foot by making "comfort" the default setting. Most test drivers likely don't know how to use the driver mode system and thus drive in comfort mode. I think most early reviewers did the same thing. Their initial impressions were based on the default setting and the whole "what happened to the steering" issue is still with us.
As for feeling the road through the steering, well, most near luxury cars are designed to transmit every pebble and road grain to the driver.
Still, BMW should have tuned the sport/Msport versions for a bit more road feel, not just steering effort firmness.
I still say that most complaints about the electric steering are related to the steering effor in comfort mode MUCH more so than any lack of road feel. It's not like the E90 allowed much road grain through the steering, but it's effort was firmer and that's what most people notice.
Put the F30 in sport mode and the effort firms up nicely, even though it's still a bit light at slow speeds. We can thank the BMW buyers who buy a 3 series more for it's near luxury amenities rather than it's sport driving prowess.
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      11-22-2012, 12:44 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Lemon Jelly M3 View Post
Remember, ATS was benchmarking BMW E90 model, with that much money and time, not beating the E90 would be a shame and total failure for Caddy.

BTW, I like Jonny Lieberman.
E46, not E90.
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      11-22-2012, 12:46 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
It IS a drivers car, when equipped with the proper gear, namely the sport/Msport package, and then driven in "sport/sport+" mode.
And other modes and packages are deemed too civilized for a "sport" sedan.

BTW, do you own an F30, or are you here just to poke at actual F30 owners whenever you read something about the F30 that favors your view of it?
Hmmmm?
No, I do not own a F30 because I feel BMW dropped the ball with this model. It is not a good looking car to me and judging by the reviews, its not a better driving car then past 3 series. I've been a BMW fan for a very long time, I just do like the direction they are taking, and their current cars show it. I'm happy the Cadillac beat the BMW at their own game.
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      11-22-2012, 12:51 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
+1

It's so funny to see all the F30 owners justify their biased opinions on the ATS beating the F30. Let's be real here guys.... the ATS is a better SPORTS SEDAN. I emphasis sport because that was the whole point of the 3 series formula. To provide near sports car like performance from a sedan. Credit is due when deserved.

BTW Cadillac benchmarked the E46 not the E90 because the head engineer at GM in charge of the Alpha platform believes that the E46 was the ultimate sports sedan and lost sight of that with the E90 and went way out the park with the F30.

I figured this was going to happen the minute I drove the F30.
You JUST wrote that you had not driven an ATS.
Thus, your conclusion is based on what?
It's based on accepting the conclusion of this review.
That's not a slight on the reviewer, he simply states what he actually experienced.
I do think that people should reserve opinion until they've actually driven the car.
You otoh are as guilty of a biased opinion even though it makes you laugh when others do it.
SO, laugh at yourself, I know laughing at you.
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