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      11-27-2012, 04:47 AM   #1
alpinweiss 335i
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I got my 2013 f30 under invoice - but WHY?!

I felt really really bad (a guilty bad) leaving the dealership. It's a bitter sweet bad. Like "YES!!! I did an amazing job negotiating this deal but deep down inside I'm a terrible person" kind of bad.


I am a small business owner myself. I have employees, I pay taxes, I have bills to pay, payroll to meet, rent, ... If someone were to "shop at my store", and I take the time out of my busy day to return several of his/her phone calls, a bunch of back and forth e-mails, invite them into my store, treat them to coffee, sweets, ONLY for them to give me a hard time to a point where I sell them something below cost ... I would either shoot myself, or choose a different line of business.


Why do some dealers sell under invoice? These guys seriously undercut another local dealer, just to get me to sign with them. This is a 2013 custom built car. Not a car they are trying to move off the lot either.


I don't get it (and yes, I still feel uneasy about the deal).
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      11-27-2012, 04:51 AM   #2
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They can afford to do that sometimes because some people don't care to negotiate at all and pay sticker price. Their loss is your win so don't feel guilty.
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      11-27-2012, 07:11 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shicobico View Post
I felt really really bad (a guilty bad) leaving the dealership. It's a bitter sweet bad. Like "YES!!! I did an amazing job negotiating this deal but deep down inside I'm a terrible person" kind of bad.


I am a small business owner myself. I have employees, I pay taxes, I have bills to pay, payroll to meet, rent, ... If someone were to "shop at my store", and I take the time out of my busy day to return several of his/her phone calls, a bunch of back and forth e-mails, invite them into my store, treat them to coffee, sweets, ONLY for them to give me a hard time to a point where I sell them something below cost ... I would either shoot myself, or choose a different line of business.


Why do some dealers sell under invoice? These guys seriously undercut another local dealer, just to get me to sign with them. This is a 2013 custom built car. Not a car they are trying to move off the lot either.


I don't get it (and yes, I still feel uneasy about the deal).
Trust me, the dealer still made money selling you the car. You got it under invoice because there is Holiday Cash, etc right now. BMW reimburses the dealer for this.
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      11-27-2012, 07:19 AM   #4
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"Invoice" does not mean what the dealer actually pays for a car. If everyone, including the salesman, did not make money, they would not have sold you the car.
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      11-27-2012, 07:20 AM   #5
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Because the invoice #'s you're working off of isn't the true invoice. I own a business myself and do I'll the negotiations for our fleet trucks. I can't tell you how many time I've been shown the "dealers invoice" and told they were only gonna make $50 on the deal. You know as well as I do ( especially because you're running a business) you just can't do this . They made $ on the deal. You said it yourself "This is a 2013 custom built car. Not a car they are trying to move off the lot either." They aren't gonna lose on a car they can easily sell to someone else. On the other hand congrats on getting a good deal!
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      11-27-2012, 07:41 AM   #6
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The invoice you see is not the true invoice. Plus dealer/salesmen gets incentives for # of units delivered, etc.. Its a very complicated game. You very likely did NOT get the car for a true loss to their bottom line.
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      11-27-2012, 07:48 AM   #7
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Just curious...but what did they tell you was the invoice price or is that frowned upon here?
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      11-27-2012, 08:27 AM   #8
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How did you determine Invoice numbers? Did you use a site like truecar.com or something similar?
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      11-27-2012, 09:24 AM   #9
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Yes dealers do have a little holdback and financial reserve in each car, but when you go behind invoice that's what your cutting into. To be fair invoice should be the minimum price a customer should receive. Then you can shop the dealers on their overall customer service.

Just remember as a small business owner how would you feel if a customer goes around to a few another stores that sells the same thing and starts a little price war between them all...so in the end no store makes a good profit.
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      11-27-2012, 09:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
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How did you determine Invoice numbers? Did you use a site like truecar.com or something similar?
Sure there, or bmwconfig.com
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      11-27-2012, 09:39 AM   #11
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As others have said - there's lots of money in the back end of a deal. Six figure sums change hands if dealers meet registration targets so practically giving cars away is not as uncommon as you might think
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      11-27-2012, 12:10 PM   #12
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I've commented on this before, but the fact people can get below invoice on a BMW that has been out for less than a year worries me where the brand is going. I'm sure everyone on this board has remarkable negotiation skills, but back in the day it was unheard of (or extremely rare) to get that much discount until a few years of production. This sounds more like GM, Ford, etc and IMO the reason you do not see any BMW model on this recent residual list:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/a...-value-awards/

Mini yes, but they have not been discounting like BMWs have recently.
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      11-27-2012, 12:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shicobico View Post
I felt really really bad (a guilty bad) leaving the dealership. It's a bitter sweet bad. Like "YES!!! I did an amazing job negotiating this deal but deep down inside I'm a terrible person" kind of bad.


I am a small business owner myself. I have employees, I pay taxes, I have bills to pay, payroll to meet, rent, ... If someone were to "shop at my store", and I take the time out of my busy day to return several of his/her phone calls, a bunch of back and forth e-mails, invite them into my store, treat them to coffee, sweets, ONLY for them to give me a hard time to a point where I sell them something below cost ... I would either shoot myself, or choose a different line of business.


Why do some dealers sell under invoice? These guys seriously undercut another local dealer, just to get me to sign with them. This is a 2013 custom built car. Not a car they are trying to move off the lot either.


I don't get it (and yes, I still feel uneasy about the deal).
I thnk the trick is here you won`t sell under cost and sure they won`t sell under cost too. The invoice price is not the actual cost. They usually get something paid back like a bonus rebate etc.
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      11-27-2012, 12:35 PM   #14
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Sorry bud....I'm afraid you are a horrible human being.

Kidding! I worked a couple of dealers against one another and got the smaller guy (who I wanted to give my business to) to lower my monthly by $100. They made me feel a little guilty, but it was their choice to compete for my business.
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      11-27-2012, 04:02 PM   #15
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There are so many factors go into vehicles true invoice price even sometimes it is really hard for dealerships to calculate the true cost. Those factors include from amount of the cars dealer sells each month, who finances vehicles (factory vs buyer's own finance) to how they purchase the vehicle begin with. Don't worry about it, dealership still made a good profit. It requires lots of dough to keep those dealerships up and running and providing free coffee
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      11-27-2012, 06:53 PM   #16
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My new deal turned out pretty well for me, I think (under 1k OTD all taxes paid up front, 530/mo on a MSRP ~42k new '13 328i). They took the market standard ~4% off the MSRP, ending up about 1k above invoice, but added in 2800 in tax rebates. Hadn't heard of that before, but they were able to beat everyone else's best lease price. It seemed clear to me that they saw me as a repeat buyer and wanted me to get my first car through them.
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      11-27-2012, 07:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shicobico View Post
I felt really really bad (a guilty bad) leaving the dealership. It's a bitter sweet bad. Like "YES!!! I did an amazing job negotiating this deal but deep down inside I'm a terrible person" kind of bad.


I am a small business owner myself. I have employees, I pay taxes, I have bills to pay, payroll to meet, rent, ... If someone were to "shop at my store", and I take the time out of my busy day to return several of his/her phone calls, a bunch of back and forth e-mails, invite them into my store, treat them to coffee, sweets, ONLY for them to give me a hard time to a point where I sell them something below cost ... I would either shoot myself, or choose a different line of business.


Why do some dealers sell under invoice? These guys seriously undercut another local dealer, just to get me to sign with them. This is a 2013 custom built car. Not a car they are trying to move off the lot either.


I don't get it (and yes, I still feel uneasy about the deal).
Do you mind sharing what the MSRP was and the invoice price you were given. Also what is the dealer doc fee. Some dealers jack-up the price on doc fees.
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      11-27-2012, 07:27 PM   #18
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Yea the dealer I went to had their invoice price 425 above the invoice price on bmwconfig. Their invoice for my 2013 328 was at 45525 with msrp of 48845. I negotiated for a price of 40025, which is actually 75 below the invoice from bmwconfig! Happy as can be. Now my next venture is to try to get a good deal on insurance, any help???
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      11-27-2012, 08:00 PM   #19
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Here is my take on it, as someone on the other side of the desk:

Two factors are more important than the exact cost to the dealer:

1. Are you a local customer/repeat client? A dealership will make more than a few fundred just from warranty and schedule maintenance service.

2. Are you there in person? Internet is great, but online shopping is not a guarantee for the best price. You sitting in my office with the checkbook in hand is the best language my sales manager will understand. Come prepared, ready to buy, the car in stock - anything can happen.
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      11-27-2012, 08:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micosilver View Post
Here is my take on it, as someone on the other side of the desk:

Two factors are more important than the exact cost to the dealer:

1. Are you a local customer/repeat client? A dealership will make more than a few fundred just from warranty and schedule maintenance service.

2. Are you there in person? Internet is great, but online shopping is not a guarantee for the best price. You sitting in my office with the checkbook in hand is the best language my sales manager will understand. Come prepared, ready to buy, the car in stock - anything can happen.
This is Anthony, I just emailed you. Haha. What a surprise. See you this weekend.
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      11-27-2012, 11:20 PM   #21
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Different situation with an E82, but I got my '13 135is for just under 2 grand under invoice. Used USAA car buying + negotiating + using several dealerships' quotes to get to what I thought was a great price. I have no worries that the dealership isn't making money, and I think they know they've earned me as a customer for a long time.

My former dealership let me and my business walk out the door as I sat there in person ready to buy. I was shocked that they'd be so short sighted - we were a couple grand apart - and they gave up and said they couldn't help me. Wonder of wonders, they call back two weeks later after watching the allocation orders of 135is' in the Northeast to say they're ready to match my price. No thanks!

My price goal for negotiating for my "is" was regular 135i M-Sport @ invoice specced the way I like it. Honestly, I didn't think anyone would offer the "is" @ that price. Makes me think there's a lot of fluff in that premium they're charging for what is essentially an option package with some badges. It worked out, so I pulled the trigger and will continue to do so with this dealership.

And as many have already said, invoice is not "cost" - money is still made on the deal.
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      11-28-2012, 07:46 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I've commented on this before, but the fact people can get below invoice on a BMW that has been out for less than a year worries me where the brand is going. I'm sure everyone on this board has remarkable negotiation skills, but back in the day it was unheard of (or extremely rare) to get that much discount until a few years of production. This sounds more like GM, Ford, etc and IMO the reason you do not see any BMW model on this recent residual list:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/a...-value-awards/

Mini yes, but they have not been discounting like BMWs have recently.

I can't disagree there. A couple of dealerships told me that they are on a mission to do whatever it takes to move cars this year, since BMW is trying it's darn best to edge out Lexus as a premium brand (not sure if this is globally, or North American market). I guess it's more a volume game at this point. Move more cars at any cost (or loss).

That would explain the vast expansion in line-up of cars and the softening of the existing line-up (departure from the ultimate driving machines of the late 90s and early 00's), in order to appeal to a much wider demograph.

It does cheapen the brand a little bit, I agree.

And for the record, I have terrible negotiating skills. It just seems that every dealership is very eager to outbid the last one, with little effort or role-plying on my part.
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