F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > NYT on the Caddy ATS and the 3 Series
MINHS Auto Care Center
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-30-2012, 06:41 PM   #1
BMWMilan
First Lieutenant
9
Rep
308
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

NYT on the Caddy ATS and the 3 Series

lhttp://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/au...bmws-door.html

Hope this isn't a repost ...
Appreciate 0
      11-30-2012, 08:20 PM   #2
jsedlak
Lieutenant
jsedlak's Avatar
5
Rep
410
Posts

 
Drives: F30 335i 6spd
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Morristown, NJ

iTrader: (0)

The ATS is about the best competitor the 3 series has right now. Going to be awesome to see how BMW and Audi combat it.
Appreciate 0
      11-30-2012, 08:33 PM   #3
TheObviousChild
First Lieutenant
TheObviousChild's Avatar
United_States
9
Rep
363
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 335xi - M-Sport
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Broomfield, CO

iTrader: (0)

I enjoyed the video as well. They took it to Spartanburg (BMW's turf) to compare them on the track.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...%2Findex.jsonp
__________________
2013 BMW 335xi EBII over Coral Red / ///M sport / Premium / Cold Weather / 6MT / Nav / Dynamic Handling / HK audio
Previous: 2010 328i / MT
Previous: 2007 328i / AT (boo)
Previous: 2004 325i / MT
Appreciate 0
      11-30-2012, 09:01 PM   #4
claykin
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
25
Rep
1,910
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheObviousChild View Post
I enjoyed the video as well. They took it to Spartanburg (BMW's turf) to compare them on the track.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...%2Findex.jsonp
Ahhh, the Hot Lap in an M3 on that same track. Heavenly! Brings back memories from 2 months ago.

BTW, looked like the ATS was losing its backend on several of the corners. Was this staged since it was filmed on BMW property?
Appreciate 0
      11-30-2012, 09:28 PM   #5
Reznick
First Lieutenant
Reznick's Avatar
United_States
5
Rep
386
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 M3 ,2000 330
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Syracuse NY

iTrader: (0)

Well it was written by Ezra Dyer who is pretty much the only "newer " writers at MT that I even care to read.He seems pretty honest and straight forward.
Appreciate 0
      11-30-2012, 11:25 PM   #6
azzurro
First Lieutenant
United_States
5
Rep
398
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 335i M Sport
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Del Mar, CA

iTrader: (0)

NYT sucks and so does Cadillac. I wouldn't be caught dead in an American car but it's more of a political statement for me. I don't want ONE PENNY of my money going to the lame azz UAW...Nuff said.
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 05:38 AM   #7
jsedlak
Lieutenant
jsedlak's Avatar
5
Rep
410
Posts

 
Drives: F30 335i 6spd
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Morristown, NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by azzurro View Post
NYT sucks and so does Cadillac. I wouldn't be caught dead in an American car but it's more of a political statement for me. I don't want ONE PENNY of my money going to the lame azz UAW...Nuff said.
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 06:08 AM   #8
F30AM
Brigadier General
F30AM's Avatar
United Kingdom
71
Rep
4,228
Posts

 
Drives: F30 330d M Sport sDrive
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: London, UK

iTrader: (0)

What is wrong with all of you? This is a BMW Forum and many of you seem to be chasing an ugly duckling like the ATS.
__________________
Present: Superman 330d sDrive M Sport + Toys (Auto Car: 0-60 in 5.5s, 0-100 in 14.2s, 30-70 in 5.1s)
Ordered: Red Tornado Golf 7R 5 Dr, DSG + Toys (Top Gear: 0-60 in 4.5s, 0-100 in 11.5s, 30-70 in 4.0s)
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 06:37 AM   #9
Reznick
First Lieutenant
Reznick's Avatar
United_States
5
Rep
386
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 M3 ,2000 330
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Syracuse NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F30AM View Post
What is wrong with all of you? This is a BMW Forum and many of you seem to be chasing an ugly duckling like the ATS.
I don't think people are chasing as much as they are simply acknowledging another car out there that some people refuse to see just because of the badge on the grille . Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 06:51 AM   #10
F30AM
Brigadier General
F30AM's Avatar
United Kingdom
71
Rep
4,228
Posts

 
Drives: F30 330d M Sport sDrive
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: London, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
I don't think people are chasing as much as they are simply acknowledging another car out there that some people refuse to see just because of the badge on the grille . Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Good morning!
Or, there is no accounting for taste!!

Now the GTI is slightly sick and I have to rush it to the doctor. Either the clutch or the engine belt. And it is flipping cold outside.

Just back. Problem gone by itself. Strange.
__________________
Present: Superman 330d sDrive M Sport + Toys (Auto Car: 0-60 in 5.5s, 0-100 in 14.2s, 30-70 in 5.1s)
Ordered: Red Tornado Golf 7R 5 Dr, DSG + Toys (Top Gear: 0-60 in 4.5s, 0-100 in 11.5s, 30-70 in 4.0s)

Last edited by F30AM; 12-01-2012 at 07:24 AM.
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 10:53 AM   #11
Ron Scott
Captain
30
Rep
631
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 335 M Sport
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Long Island

iTrader: (0)

I have absolutely no love or hate for either BMW or GM, or any other manufacturer. No attachment...feel equally about each of them. Loyalty to a car company = sucker for marketing IMO.

What I'm interested in is a great car. The 335 M Sport is it for me at this time--not other versions of the 3. If Caddy steps it up in areas that I focus on I'd certainly consider it for my next car.

I'd take the Caddy over Audi or a Base-level or Modern 328 now...

Last edited by Ron Scott; 12-01-2012 at 11:00 AM.
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 03:20 PM   #12
F30AM
Brigadier General
F30AM's Avatar
United Kingdom
71
Rep
4,228
Posts

 
Drives: F30 330d M Sport sDrive
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: London, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Scott View Post
I have absolutely no love or hate for either BMW or GM, or any other manufacturer. No attachment...feel equally about each of them. Loyalty to a car company = sucker for marketing IMO.

What I'm interested in is a great car. 1. The 335 M Sport is it for me at this time--not other versions of the 3. If Caddy steps it up in areas that I focus on I'd certainly consider it for my next car.

I'd take the Caddy over Audi or a Base-level or Modern 328 now...
1. I am also a car tart. No allegiance to a specific car manufacturer.

2. The 330d M Sport is the one.
__________________
Present: Superman 330d sDrive M Sport + Toys (Auto Car: 0-60 in 5.5s, 0-100 in 14.2s, 30-70 in 5.1s)
Ordered: Red Tornado Golf 7R 5 Dr, DSG + Toys (Top Gear: 0-60 in 4.5s, 0-100 in 11.5s, 30-70 in 4.0s)
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 07:32 PM   #13
Elk
Major
12
Rep
1,275
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: *

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Scott View Post
Loyalty to a car company = sucker for marketing IMO.

What I'm interested in is a great car.
Precisely. Buy the best car, not the "best" label. Bias for or against a manufacturer is pointless.

A roundel has zero value by itself. Only the car underneath the badge counts. If Cadillac makes the better car, buy it.
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 11:11 PM   #14
CE750Jockey
Second Lieutenant
CE750Jockey's Avatar
2
Rep
203
Posts

 
Drives: '13 328xi
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Scott View Post
...

I'd take the Caddy over Audi or a Base-level or Modern 328 now...
Ouch! C'mon, man. You guys are giving us few Modern owners a complex.

Now back to the BMW/ATS debate.
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2012, 11:57 PM   #15
DerekS
Captain
DerekS's Avatar
Canada
12
Rep
912
Posts

 
Drives: 335i M Sport GS
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver,B.C.

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by F30AM View Post
What is wrong with all of you? This is a BMW Forum and many of you seem to be chasing an ugly duckling like the ATS.
Well written !!!

It baffles me that so many on this forum consider the ATS to be a serious competitor for the F30. I very much doubt that BMW AG is worried about the ATS, so long as Cadillac continues to maintain its reputation for building average quality cars combined with polarizing styling. I also doubt that European buyers would seriously consider the ATS.
__________________
2013-335i M Sport, 8 spd, Glacier silver, adaptive M suspension, variable sport steering, 18" style 400 staggered wheels/tires, M Sport brakes,

Last edited by DerekS; 12-02-2012 at 12:51 AM.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 02:02 AM   #16
ZMM_OMG
First Lieutenant
ZMM_OMG's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
328
Posts

 
Drives: '01 325i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Scott View Post
What I'm interested in is a great car. If Caddy steps it up in areas that I focus on I'd certainly consider it for my next car.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
Well written !!!

It baffles me that so many on this forum consider the ATS to be a serious competitor for the F30. I very much doubt that BMW AG is worried about the ATS, so long as Cadillac continues to maintain its reputation for building average quality cars combined with polarizing styling. I also doubt that European buyers would seriously consider the ATS.
In case people haven't been paying attention, BMW have been their fair share of competitions lately. The e89 Z4 seems to have been stillborn. Notwithstanding the M5, the F10 is being strongly criticized as numb and uninspired and lost a comparo to the Lexus GS. The F30 recently lost a comparo to the Audi S4.

Why is it so difficult to believe that Cadillac could build a serious sport sedan contender? Almost all of the professional reviews agree at a high level that the ATS does NOT dethrone the 3-series, but is a very good first effort. Considering how long Inifiniti, Lexus, Audi, and MBZ have been chasing the 3-series, the fact that Cadillac could get this close is impressive. Even the BMW SCCA driver in the video said the ATS reminded him of an e46 M3.

Competition is good for the breed. Cars like the ATS and S4 should remind BMW that their reputation as a purveyor of driver's cars is at risk. I for one welcome the competition and would consider an improved ATS or any other brand if they can build a better 3-series.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:02 AM   #17
DerekS
Captain
DerekS's Avatar
Canada
12
Rep
912
Posts

 
Drives: 335i M Sport GS
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver,B.C.

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMM_OMG View Post
+1
In case people haven't been paying attention, BMW have been their fair share of competitions lately.
I assume that you meant to say "have been (losing) their fair share of competitions lately" ?

Your statements are all fair comment and true. But I do not think I could ever get my head around Cadillac's past reputation, both for the product and for the GM dealer culture. IMO, these remain the biggest handicaps for Cadillac to overcome.

The initial ATS sales are apparently mostly coming at the expense of CTS sales, which have plunged by 40%. GM has responded by cutting CTS production. I doubt that cannibalism within the marque was GM's sales objective.

Whether Cadillac becomes a serious threat to BMW's many loyal fans remains to be seen, but as you so correctly said, "competition is good for the breed".
__________________
2013-335i M Sport, 8 spd, Glacier silver, adaptive M suspension, variable sport steering, 18" style 400 staggered wheels/tires, M Sport brakes,
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 12:06 PM   #18
Cisitalia
No fast lane bandits allowed
Cisitalia's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
337
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 135i TiAg 6mt M-Sport
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
The initial ATS sales are apparently mostly coming at the expense of CTS sales, which have plunged by 40%. GM has responded by cutting CTS production. I doubt that cannibalism within the marque was GM's sales objective.

Whether Cadillac becomes a serious threat to BMW's many loyal fans remains to be seen, but as you so correctly said, "competition is good for the breed".
The all new CTS comes out in 2013 is the main reason for lower sales. Whether BMW fans like it or not they are losing sales to the ATS. I am a case in point. Also my dealer has pointed out alot of their sales have come from the German brands. Time will ultimately tell, but alot of BMW fans are in denial. I agree competition is good and we need to keep BMW in check.

Last edited by Cisitalia; 12-02-2012 at 01:31 PM. Reason: sp
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 02:01 PM   #19
ZMM_OMG
First Lieutenant
ZMM_OMG's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
328
Posts

 
Drives: '01 325i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
I assume that you meant to say "have been (losing) their fair share of competitions lately" ?
Yes, that. Dammit, I proofed that post like 3 times and still missed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
Your statements are all fair comment and true. But I do not think I could ever get my head around Cadillac's past reputation, both for the product and for the GM dealer culture. IMO, these remain the biggest handicaps for Cadillac to overcome.
Having worked in the service department of a dealership that sold Pontiacs and Hondas during the late 80's, I can definitely relate. GM has serious work to do here.

Service is definitely part of the ownership experience, but what I find impressive in the short-term is that Caddy seems to have made impressive strides in performance. Recent cars like the CTS and ATS seem to be light years ahead of the Catera and (ugh)... the Cimarron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
The initial ATS sales are apparently mostly coming at the expense of CTS sales, which have plunged by 40%. GM has responded by cutting CTS production. I doubt that cannibalism within the marque was GM's sales objective.
It'll take time to judge whether Caddy can be successful. GM needs to build awareness of the new car since the average consumer probably doesn't even know that it exists (the SCCA racer from the video initially didn't). Sales success isn't just about converting owners of German marques, it's also about putting the car on "John Doe's" shopping list.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 02:34 PM   #20
Jamesons Viggen
Brigadier General
United_States
50
Rep
3,573
Posts

 
Drives: '98 M Roadster stg 2+ S/C
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Rochester Hills MI

iTrader: (3)

I took some automotive design and marketing classes. We did a case study showing focus groups on the first CTS.

The badge was covered and people had great things to say about the car. When it was revealed it was a Cadillac everyone kind of cooled off to it. People said things like well if it was a Lexus or BMW I would have been a more interested buyer.

I think this stigma is still there, only less severe.

Fact is the ATS was the ONLY other car on my radar when looking at the F30.
__________________
'98 M Roadster S/C @11-16ps
'06 Saab 9-5 wagon 5mt Aero+ Tuned
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 02:43 PM   #21
wayman519
Private First Class
No_Country
9
Rep
184
Posts

 
Drives: F30
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

That article nailed what the ATS is perfectly. Good car, but not worth the money asked. Its hard to tackle a King when it is the benchmark for both performance, price and pedigree. The ATS has performance, now it has to build consumer trust in all areas before it is recognized as a true competitor, and that only takes time.....lots of time. BMW is a good few decades ahead!
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 02:55 PM   #22
wayman519
Private First Class
No_Country
9
Rep
184
Posts

 
Drives: F30
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Precisely. Buy the best car, not the "best" label. Bias for or against a manufacturer is pointless.

A roundel has zero value by itself. Only the car underneath the badge counts. If Cadillac makes the better car, buy it.
A smart person would buy based on history. Like how most smart decisions are made based on decisions in the past. Now how many Cadillacs have been equal to or better than BMW's in history. Once you find the facts then make your decision. Don't blindly buy a car because its performance is good. Performance is only a single quality of a machine that contains countless more. Remember the days when the peoples car WV GTI spanked BMWs, Merc's and Audi's at less than half the cost. Nobody thought the GTI was cheap. It was and still is considered a VALUABLE car.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:43 AM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST