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      11-27-2012, 06:51 PM   #265
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I'm 55. I don't want to track my BMW. I drive it to and from doctors and dentists. But when I do . . . I want it's "feel" to cure me.

Seriously, I think BMW does this well. They understand how to make Point A to Point B an event. If you can figure out how to option one to best do that.
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      11-27-2012, 11:49 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironysatire
I'm 55. I don't want to track my BMW. I drive it to and from doctors and dentists. But when I do . . . I want it's "feel" to cure me.

Seriously, I think BMW does this well. They understand how to make Point A to Point B an event. If you can figure out how to option one to best do that.
There are plenty of 55 year olds tracking out there! You dont have to go fast as the car can. Just fast as YOU can. Late age hobby possibly?
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      11-27-2012, 11:58 PM   #267
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For better subjective "feel" on the track? If we're lucky, it might spend 1% of it's life being really tested. Should the attributes of the 99% be sacrificed for slight improvement in "feel" in the 1%? In a daily-driver sedan?

If we were concerned only with the 1%, we would all be commuting in Ariel Atoms. Surely anything less is a compromise.
If the Atom had weather protection, airbags, and a rear seat then I would gladly commute in it. Joking aside, I will argue with you that you get more driving satisfaction out of a "rawer" machine at lower commuting speeds, then from a more refined machine which requires higher speeds to come alive.

I am probably in the minority here tracking my daily driver sedan, so yes I absolutely prefer a sportier ride, and don't consider it a negative for commuting. I don't equate sporty to mean unbearably harsh, just firm, chassis ahead of the engine and as much feedback as possible.

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So maybe I don't know sporting. I am just a girl.
You are just a screen alias on an internet forum, so who knows really? Not that there is anything wrong with that. Or maybe you are just getting older, and there is nothing wrong with that either. Used to be, at the age when sporty became annoying people just bought a 5 series...

Quote:
That you "hate the way the new car drives" is a subjective argument, not quantitative. Everyone has their own preferences. But to suggest it's because it's less "sporty", well that argument doesn't hold water. It feels different from what you would prefer, or you may say that it feels less sporty to you, but because it out-performs the old model, one cannot accurately state that it is less sporty.
Well it doesn't really outperform the old model, now does it? That leaves the older car as sportier, since it offers more feel and feedback through pretty much all driving interfaces, while offering the same performance.

It's back to "you prefer it this way, and I prefer it the other way". I like your writing style, but your narrative doesn't offer more than just a justification for your purchase.


What is hilarious is that with the previous generations cars, it was the BMW owners making my type of argument, and the arguments for the other cars were in favor of the comfort and lack of harshness.
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      11-28-2012, 09:49 AM   #268
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Well it doesn't really outperform the old model, now does it?
Well yeah, it actually does, because an F30 328i Sport on all seasons matches the results of a E46 330i ZHP on staggered summer tires. Whoops.

Also, the comparable for the E46 330i ZHP is the F30 335i Sport/M Sport, not the slowest F30 in a straight line. That would have been, what, an E46...325i? 318i?
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      11-28-2012, 01:49 PM   #269
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If the Atom had weather protection, airbags, and a rear seat then I would gladly commute in it. Joking aside, I will argue with you that you get more driving satisfaction out of a "rawer" machine at lower commuting speeds, then from a more refined machine which requires higher speeds to come alive.

I am probably in the minority here tracking my daily driver sedan, so yes I absolutely prefer a sportier ride, and don't consider it a negative for commuting. I don't equate sporty to mean unbearably harsh, just firm, chassis ahead of the engine and as much feedback as possible.
I too also track my daily driver sedan. By the way on your track days do you come across any Cadillacs?
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      11-28-2012, 03:10 PM   #270
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      11-28-2012, 07:29 PM   #271
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I too also track my daily driver sedan. By the way on your track days do you come across any Cadillacs?
CTS-V, several times.
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      11-28-2012, 07:44 PM   #272
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Well yeah, it actually does, because an F30 328i Sport on all seasons matches the results of a E46 330i ZHP on staggered summer tires. Whoops.
That's not how it works dude. Stock vs. stock. For instance, the ZHP came with 2 generations old Pilot Sports, are you really sure if and how much more grip they offer compared to the tires on the F30?

If you allow some $1300 tire change on the F30, and spend the same amount changing the ZHP, who would win the performance battle? let's just agree the cars are absolutely very similar in performance - the only difference is that the same performance envelope is more accessible in the new car, and you have to work harder in a ZHP to get at it. Which for people like me is not a burden, but a pleasure.

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Also, the comparable for the E46 330i ZHP is the F30 335i Sport/M Sport, not the slowest F30 in a straight line. That would have been, what, an E46...325i? 318i?
I'm comparing what the other guys were comparing.

It went that way because you want to compare similar power to weight ratios. Otherwise, the new car has lots more power than the E46 325i, so all the increased performance compared to that car is in the straight line. If you think this makes it sportier...

BTW nobody complained about the F30 328i drivetrain, in fact I think it's absolutely brilliant. I am looking forward to enjoying it as often as possible when I get my X1. People were complaining about the chassis, handlng, suspension tuning, steering feel, and general feedback.


What I don't get is this - obviously people who bought these cars think its sporty enough. So what's it to them if guys like me or that journalist think otherwise? it doesn't change what they are driving daily, or the reasons for buying it. Why do you care that BMW no longer builds the best sport sedans?


FYI, there was no 318i E46 imported in the USA.
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      11-28-2012, 10:52 PM   #273
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...
What I don't get is this - obviously people who bought these cars think its sporty enough. So what's it to them if guys like me or that journalist think otherwise? it doesn't change what they are driving daily, or the reasons for buying it. Why do you care that BMW no longer builds the best sport sedans?
Jonny Leiberman (the vilified moron or vaunted expert in the original video) also did a test (and video) comparing the 328i to the ATS turbo. The 328i won that test.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tq__8kTTbBA

Article:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...o/viewall.html

So regardless of what you think about the 3 series being sporty enough, even "that journalist" doesn't necessarily "think otherwise".

From the beginning of the video, and the article:
Quote:
Back in May, we hosted a sport sedan shoot-out and invited eight four-door sportboxes to duke it out. Everyone from Audi to Volvo came to play, and in the end, we said (and I quote), "This is not just a win for the 328i -- it's a massacre. ... there is no competition."
They felt the test was incomplete because the ATS was excluded, hence this test. Which the BMW also won. Making it the the best sports sedan in this segment, according to MotorTrend (in the smaller engine segment at least, if one were to pick nits).

Sooooo..... I guessssssss........ Sorry, what were you saying?

Other tests (Road and Track, Car and Driver, etc) call it in favour of the BMW.

Finding a voice on one side or the other is not difficult. There is no consensus here.

The ATS may be the best competition. I already lauded it's achievement in the fourth reply in this thread.

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      11-28-2012, 10:59 PM   #274
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This +1.

Bmw autox events classify even the n20/26 in the same class as n54/55 because it would be unfair to non //M e46's. even the f30 328i is considered to have an edge over the 330. And its pretty sporty to me. I came from a 400+/400+ to all four wheels evo.

I dont understand ppl who talk about sport "feel" and "handling" and whatever performance shit you want to talk about when all they do is drive from point a to point b. of course its gonna feel not so sporty. Try taking it out to a track. It'll feel plenty different.
I still own an E46 and also have an E92 (w/ Sport Pkg). When I drive them back to back, the E46 definitely has more road feel, more precision and you're more connected to the road. The E92 is definitely more refined and relatively more luxurious but you're also more isolated from the road, which I notice from driving them back to back. I definitely prefer driving the E46 and is a big reason why I still have it.

If the F30 is even more isolated than the E90/92 (as the reviews are saying), then to me BMW is going in the wrong direction and explains why it's losing (or winning by less margin) many comparison battles.

My E46 is now a decade old and I'll be in the market again, this time looking at the F80 and hope that it loses some fat compared to it's predecessor and does better at going back to BMW's roots.
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      11-28-2012, 11:18 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by S-Dot View Post
Jonny Leiberman (the vilified moron or vaunted expert in the original video) also did a test (and video) comparing the 328i to the ATS turbo. The 328i won that test.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tq__8kTTbBA

Article:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...o/viewall.html

So regardless of what you think about the 3 series being sporty enough, even "that journalist" doesn't necessarily "think otherwise".

From the beginning of the video, and the article:


They felt the test was incomplete because the ATS was excluded, hence this test. Which the BMW also won. Making it the the best sports sedan in this segment, according to MotorTrend (in the smaller engine segment at least, if one were to pick nits).

Sooooo..... I guessssssss........ Sorry, what were you saying?

Other tests (Road and Track, etc) call it in favour of the BMW.

Finding a voice on one side or the other is not difficult. There is no consensus here.

The ATS may be the best competition. I already lauded it's achievement in the fourth reply in this thread.
Here, from the first review you've linked:

Quote:
Traditionally, one of the 3 Series' highlights has been its sharp, balanced handling and less compromised attitude. Ironically, it's here that the BMW is let down. (...) The ride quality remains relatively supple; the downside is that the BMW has a slightly rubber sensation in relation to the ATS. Every input seems to be damped slightly; every corner entry just a hair slower; every sensation just that much more muted. Take the same turn in the ATS and initial understeer is more abrupt, with more marked transitions to neutral, then slight oversteer under throttle provocation. But the inputs are sharper and the response is quicker. The steering has a directness that reminds us of the E46 3 Series, not the current car. We mean that in a good way. More than that, the chassis feels more responsive, firmer, tauter. The Caddy's engine feels punchier mid-range, and while the engine note isn't what you'd call melodic, it's a little louder and rawer. If the BMW is the Beatles, the Cadillac is the Rolling Stones. There's that much more aggression and drive to the ATS; that uncompromised driving experience that sadly no longer exists in the 3 Series. Drive the Bimmer without driving the Caddy and you may not even notice, but driven back to back, the difference is marked.
So like I was saying... reviews won by the bimmer recently have been despite the lack of sportiness, and basically due to the refinement of the drivetrain and the car in general. Traditional BMW qualities have been severely diluted, and the problem shows up when you compare it to certain other cars in the segment, which have caught up and even surpassed it on that front.

Here is the kicker: I didn't listen to any of these reviews, I mean how can you buy a car without driving it. I went and drove it. And it just so happens I agree 100% with the quote above.

But you go ahead and believe what you want. It's your money, not mine.
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      11-29-2012, 02:54 AM   #276
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i have an e30 325i, e90 328i with sport package, and drove the f30 328i for about 1,500 miles.

The e30 is raw, and gives me this cool nostalgic feel when I drive it. The best part about this car is getting into the driver's seat and hearing the engine crank and come to life. Offering just the right amount of vibrations and a perfect tone, it puts me in another time and it's a blast to drive around a tight track or the canyons.

The e90 is another car I just love to drive. My favorite thing about this car is the *steering feel* and how perfectly weighted it is. The engine kind of bores me and I don't prefer the noise it emits but the ability to oversteer and control it with a smile on my face outweighs that negative.

The f30 was given to me as a loaner and I absolutely loved the motor. The steering on the other hand left me very disappointed. It's too numb, and generally I would say "throw some coilovers on it and stop bitching" but I don't think there is much hope with the electronic steering.

What has BMW done wrong here? Not much. But they may have overdone it on the comfort side of things. I think they need to find a middle-ground of where they want their cars to be. In an ideal world, I wish we could bring the aura of an e30 into a chassis of an e90 with the design of the f30 but that would never happen. Environmental regulations will make it so we will probably never see a high output straight six again. BMW is targeting a middle class person that purchases a BMW as a sign of status with their non-M 3 series line up, and I feel that the M is headed that way shortly, but we'll find out in 2014.
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      11-30-2012, 07:28 PM   #277
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seriously man, this is why the 328i vs 335i debates wont stop. out of 150+ posts in this thread, you choose to respond to the 1 or 2 posts that includes a 328i? first you argue that the handling difference between the two is not there even though we know there is a weight difference and its been reviewed by non-fanboys that there is a difference, if not just in feel alone. then you even try to argue that MPG difference is minimal as well? You want people to believe that BMW built the N20 lighter and more fuel efficient but it still is not better than the N55? Sorry dude, you have some good posts, but just not believing that, especially since they are replacing the N55 soon. 335i owners try to act as if its 328i guys pumping their chests but 99% of the examples I see on this forum its the other way around.
Easy, don't get your panties in a bunch.

I never said there was "NO" difference. I said that the difference is exaggerated. That's a distinction and difference.
I've driven many 328's and there is a bit more litheness to the front end.
It ain't no night and day as some seem to claim.

Where do I pump my chest?
I don't do that, and I don't see 99% of 335i owners doing so either.
Perhaps like the MPG claim, that claim is also exaggerated.

Now, on to "lighter" weight.
The unladen difference is like 110lbs.
Curb weight difference is even less at around 89lbs.
89lbs! That's less than most girlfriends.
Oh no! I let my girlfriend in the passenger side and now my handling is so way off, kinda like driving a 335i!!!

As for MPG, until we have real numbers that assertion will be questioned by me.
Since you've read some of my posts you'll also know that I have never said that the 328i doesn't have better mpg over the 335i.
I question how much the difference is, considering how much emphasis 328i owners put on it.
Is a 1-2mpg difference a big deal to anyone buying a sport sedan?
By the comments made one would thing the difference is like better than 5-6mpg.
Prove it. It's a reasonable request.

I always see people posting the magical on and at highway speed 38mpg!.
Yeah, you probably do see it there.
BUT, what is your overall MPG measured by the tired and true method.

There is easily more difference in MPG between 328i cars than there is actual difference between a 328i and 335i equally driven.
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      11-30-2012, 08:49 PM   #278
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Easy, don't get your panties in a bunch.

I never said there was "NO" difference. I said that the difference is exaggerated. That's a distinction and difference.
I've driven many 328's and there is a bit more litheness to the front end.
It ain't no night and day as some seem to claim.

Where do I pump my chest?
I don't do that, and I don't see 99% of 335i owners doing so either.
Perhaps like the MPG claim, that claim is also exaggerated.

Now, on to "lighter" weight.
The unladen difference is like 110lbs.
Curb weight difference is even less at around 89lbs.
89lbs! That's less than most girlfriends.
Oh no! I let my girlfriend in the passenger side and now my handling is so way off, kinda like driving a 335i!!!

As for MPG, until we have real numbers that assertion will be questioned by me.
Since you've read some of my posts you'll also know that I have never said that the 328i doesn't have better mpg over the 335i.
I question how much the difference is, considering how much emphasis 328i owners put on it.
Is a 1-2mpg difference a big deal to anyone buying a sport sedan?
By the comments made one would thing the difference is like better than 5-6mpg.
Prove it. It's a reasonable request.

I always see people posting the magical on and at highway speed 38mpg!.
Yeah, you probably do see it there.
BUT, what is your overall MPG measured by the tired and true method.

There is easily more difference in MPG between 328i cars than there is actual difference between a 328i and 335i equally driven.
I presented good mpg info. Its real world all be it not 100% scientific.
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      12-01-2012, 02:25 AM   #279
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I question how much the difference is, considering how much emphasis 328i owners put on it. Is a 1-2mpg difference a big deal to anyone buying a sport sedan? By the comments made one would thing the difference is like better than 5-6mpg.
Dude, your argument is no different than 328i owners trying to say the 335i does not have THAT MUCH MORE performance. There is no way there is only a 1-2 MPG difference between a 328i and 335i. BMW would open themselves for all kinds of criticism to downsize to a 4 cyl, praising its latest and greatest technology, if they could not extract more than 1-2 MPG more than the 3 year old technology in the more powerful N55 6 cyl.

You can't compare what you see on here. someone who is milking it in florida is not going to get the same MPG as someone dogging it in texas, or someone driving in colorado, germany, etc. different driving styles and driving environment will impact the MPG.

The 335i has more power, we get it, but please stop trying to make it sound that is also more economical. If that was the case, why would it be getting replaced in the next year?
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      12-01-2012, 02:47 AM   #280
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Easy, don't get your panties in a bunch.
Like I said in my previous post, out of 150+ posts you had to focus on 1-2 that involved a 328i. I don't think its me with the panties in a bunch. I'm not the one arguing / responding to EVERY comment on this forum. (And writing a novel each time)
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      12-02-2012, 07:00 AM   #281
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Makes me wonder who's payroll these guys are on....
Comments like this are ridiculous... when BMW was winning the comparison tests, fanboys of Audi, MB, etc all said the reviewers were on BMW payroll and drunk on BMW koolaid. Now, BMW loses a comparison and the BMW fanboys claim bias.

Guys... maybe when a car wins or loses, it is just because the magazine reviewer liked it better/worse. I love how when someone's car loses it's a conspiracy but when their car wins it only makes sense I'm as big of a BMW fan as any (regardless of the fact my DD isn't a BMW at the moment) but I can see where the reviewer is coming from. I also don't personally like the ATS (not my style) but I wouldn't be so blind to think MT is on GM's payroll just because they liked the ATS better

I love the design of the F30 and I suspect there is a decent chance one is in my future (M version) but just because you like and prefer the car you bought doesn't mean everyone will agree and that doesn't mean they are on someone else's payroll if they don't. Here is the long standing internet forum trend... Magazine picks the car I own as winner... they are intelligent and correct... magazine doesn't pick the car I own... they are bought, biased and ridiculous
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      12-02-2012, 07:37 AM   #282
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Do USA spec F30s have softer suspensions than EURO Spec ones, I wonder?
Our F30s feel just perfect and we do like a planted feel in this country.
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      12-02-2012, 12:30 PM   #283
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Do USA spec F30s have softer suspensions than EURO Spec ones, I wonder?
Our F30s feel just perfect and we do like a planted feel in this country.
To what are you comparing it to?
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      12-02-2012, 12:45 PM   #284
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Do USA spec F30s have softer suspensions than EURO Spec ones, I wonder?
Our F30s feel just perfect and we do like a planted feel in this country.
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To what are you comparing it to?
I'll rephrase: Does a USA F30, say a 328i, have a softer suspension set-up than a UK/EURO F30 328i?
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      12-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #285
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I'll rephrase: Do USA F30s, say a 328i, have a softer suspension set-up than a UK/EURO F30 328i?
no
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      12-02-2012, 03:30 PM   #286
adc
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Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F30AM View Post
I'll rephrase: Do USA F30s, say a 328i, have a softer suspension set-up than a UK/EURO F30 328i?
Nobody is saying the F30 isnt adequate motoring or that it makes a hash of things. The discussions in this thread centered around the fact that it may have lost the crown of the sports sedan segment, and that some people don't like certain attributes of the way it drives especially compared to its forebearers.

So I'm asking again, what are you comparing it to? In isolation it may indeed seem perfect and planted.
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