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      12-02-2012, 06:40 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
The best automatic gearbox on the planet, yes. It is a fantastic auto without a doubt but if you spent time with a DCT, I think you would agree it is better for sports driving. The DCT can effectively skip multiple gears with the shifter/paddles... if you are in 6th and click 3 times quickly, it immediately goes to 3rd. You don't have to actually wait for it to engage each gear (unlike my C63 where you have to let it go into each lower gear). The DCT also has the kick down feature.

It also shifts instantly up/down. I mean INSTANTLY. Click the shift paddle and the car is instantly in the next gear... aggressive shifting can actually be fairly violent as the tranny rams the next gear. It is actually what converted me (previously a 6MT only guy) into a true DCT nut. In full auto mode, I suspect the 8AT is better (as it wouldn't have some of the compromises of the DCT and would be smoother, etc) but in manual mode during aggressive driving, the DCT is simply amazing and cannot be beat. There is a reason BMW puts the DCT in the M3
Agreed.
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      12-02-2012, 06:53 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
The best automatic gearbox on the planet, yes. It is a fantastic auto without a doubt but if you spent time with a DCT, I think you would agree it is better for sports driving. The DCT can effectively skip multiple gears with the shifter/paddles... if you are in 6th and click 3 times quickly, it immediately goes to 3rd. You don't have to actually wait for it to engage each gear (unlike my C63 where you have to let it go into each lower gear). The DCT also has the kick down feature.

It also shifts instantly up/down. I mean INSTANTLY. Click the shift paddle and the car is instantly in the next gear... aggressive shifting can actually be fairly violent as the tranny rams the next gear. It is actually what converted me (previously a 6MT only guy) into a true DCT nut. In full auto mode, I suspect the 8AT is better (as it wouldn't have some of the compromises of the DCT and would be smoother, etc) but in manual mode during aggressive driving, the DCT is simply amazing and cannot be beat. There is a reason BMW puts the DCT in the M3

Not exactly true on the DCT mode of operation. The DCT is like two gearboxes in one housing. When in 1st gear, second gear is pre-selected but disengaged by it's own clutch. Changing from first to second is a sequence of fading one clutch in as the other fades out. Not quite instantaneous as there is a period where both clutches are slipping, but pretty quick.

Typically, if you are accelerating up through the gears, there is logic that selects the next higher gear on the second gear set, however if you change down (out of the pre selected logic) it physically has to deselect then re-select another on the same gear set. This takes time. So if you select a gear the ECU thinks you are going to select it is quick, if you don't it needs to complete a slower change. None of this matters much to the user, as you can't physically slow down fast enough to catch the gearbox out.

The ultimate gearbox is that used in Formula 1, it is so fast it actually has two gears engaged for a split second at the same time (same gearshaft, not clutch de-coupled). This is known as seemless shift, the power is not even interrupted on up changes. But whilst on F1, not even an F1 car that pulls 5-6G deceleration needs to skip gears, so not quite understanding why a road car would need to unless the driver was a complete anus.
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      12-02-2012, 07:09 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Not exactly true on the DCT mode of operation. The DCT is like two gearboxes in one housing. When in 1st gear, second gear is pre-selected but disengaged by it's own clutch. Changing from first to second is a sequence of fading one clutch in as the other fades out. Not quite instantaneous as there is a period where both clutches are slipping, but pretty quick.

Typically, if you are accelerating up through the gears, there is logic that selects the next higher gear on the second gear set, however if you change down (out of the pre selected logic) it physically has to deselect then re-select another on the same gear set. This takes time. So if you select a gear the ECU thinks you are going to select it is quick, if you don't it needs to complete a slower change. None of this matters much to the user, as you can't physically slow down fast enough to catch the gearbox out.

The ultimate gearbox is that used in Formula 1, it is so fast it actually has two gears engaged for a split second at the same time (same gearshaft, not clutch de-coupled). This is known as seemless shift, the power is not even interrupted on up changes. But whilst on F1, not even an F1 car that pulls 5-6G deceleration needs to skip gears, so not quite understanding why a road car would need to unless the driver was a complete anus.
Agreed... what I was trying to articulate is that the DCT shifts what seems to be instantaneously almost all of the time... it may not actually skip a gear but the perception is that it does as it is so fast.
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      12-02-2012, 07:20 AM   #48
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Most DCT gearboxes are no faster than the ZF8AT. Also, DCTs are crap in traffic, much less smooth in their operation and can only go from odd to even or even to odd gears. Which would I prefer on a track? A DCT obviously. But which would I prefer to live with? That's a no brainer since the ZF8AT is the best gearbox in the world right now
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      12-02-2012, 08:02 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
Most DCT gearboxes are no faster than the ZF8AT. Also, DCTs are crap in traffic, much less smooth in their operation and can only go from odd to even or even to odd gears. Which would I prefer on a track? A DCT obviously. But which would I prefer to live with? That's a no brainer since the ZF8AT is the best gearbox in the world right now
I agree with this (other than the comment that a DCT is crap in traffic because it isn't and is actually fairly smooth)... I believe the M-DCT might be faster (could be wrong) but at the speed in which they both operate it would be irrelevant. I also do agree that the 8AT is easier to live with day-to-day. The MCT transmission in the C63 is also very fast shifting (quoted at 100ms) which is likely similar to the M-DCT but it is no where near as "connected" or fluid in manual mode as the DCT.

A DCT's advantage is its feel and connection with the car in manual mode and that is the only area where no AT can really compare. The DCT feels and acts like a true manual (because it is) and feels like a direct link to the car. In manual mode and in aggressive driving it is incredibly fun in a way an auto can't match yet. Driving around town, this connection and responsiveness is much less relevant and the DCT isn't as good in those circumstances for sure.
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      12-02-2012, 08:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
A DCT's advantage is its feel and connection with the car in manual mode and that is the only area where no AT can really compare. The DCT feels and acts like a true manual (because it is) and feels like a direct link to the car. In manual mode and in aggressive driving it is incredibly fun in a way an auto can't match yet.
Aye. I totally agree with all that lot For me, it's a case of using the 80/20 rule or, in reality, probably the 95/5 rule: if you have a manual or DCT, for 95% of driving you want an automatic. If you have an auto, for 5% of driving you want a manual. At least with my driving habits anyway. I've had manuals all my life and finally an auto box is good enough for me to get the best of both worlds with very, very little compromise. Kudos to ZF
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      12-02-2012, 08:10 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
Aye. I totally agree with all that lot For me, it's a case of using the 80/20 rule or, in reality, probably the 95/5 rule: if you have a manual or DCT, for 95% of driving you want an automatic. If you have an auto, for 5% of driving you want a manual. At least with my driving habits anyway. I've had manuals all my life and finally an auto box is good enough for me to get the best of both worlds with very, very little compromise. Kudos to ZF
It is amazing how far auto transmissions have come, isn't it. The technology today is light years ahead of what was available even 5 years ago. I also agree, in a daily driver, the DCT isn't needed or even necessarily wanted (other than for those who really want a true MT but can't have it for some reason like the spouse can't drive a manual).
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      12-02-2012, 08:17 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
Most DCT gearboxes are no faster than the ZF8AT. Also, DCTs are crap in traffic, much less smooth in their operation and can only go from odd to even or even to odd gears. Which would I prefer on a track? A DCT obviously. But which would I prefer to live with? That's a no brainer since the ZF8AT is the best gearbox in the world right now
Absolutely. Just blew my socks off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
Aye. I totally agree with all that lot For me, it's a case of using the 80/20 rule or, in reality, probably the 95/5 rule: if you have a manual or DCT, for 95% of driving you want an automatic. If you have an auto, for 5% of driving you want a manual. At least with my driving habits anyway. I've had manuals all my life and finally an auto box is good enough for me to get the best of both worlds with very, very little compromise. Kudos to ZF
Ditto!
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      12-02-2012, 08:22 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
Most DCT gearboxes are no faster than the ZF8AT. Also, DCTs are crap in traffic, much less smooth in their operation and can only go from odd to even or even to odd gears. Which would I prefer on a track? A DCT obviously. But which would I prefer to live with? That's a no brainer since the ZF8AT is the best gearbox in the world right now
I hope so, in the F10 it was a nice gearbox with some getting used to stuff.
Anyway, I ordered it again on my oncoming M135i because of the great reviews.

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      12-02-2012, 08:27 AM   #54
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Interestingly enough, my old man's got a 5GT (30D+8AT) at the mo and has been looking at a Panamera as his replacement. He spent a weekend with different models and concluded that he's probably going to get a 6GC instead because nothing Porsche has to offer can match the drivetrain of a BMW diesel with the 8AT Go figure!
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      12-02-2012, 08:34 AM   #55
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Interestingly enough, my old man's got a 5GT (30D+8AT) at the mo and has been looking at a Panamera as his replacement. He spent a weekend with different models and concluded that he's probably going to get a 6GC instead because nothing Porsche has to offer can match the drivetrain of a BMW diesel with the 8AT Go figure!
Your Old man is spot on. It was either one Panamera or one BMW 6GC if we were not going to get two 330d M Sports. The Panamera was off the list after a very quick drive due to the transmission. The 6GC was the one. Then we drove the F30 with the ZF 8AT. The 6GC then became history.: too big, too expensive and not such good value for money. F30's version of Joy won.
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      12-02-2012, 09:21 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
It is amazing how far auto transmissions have come, isn't it. The technology today is light years ahead of what was available even 5 years ago. I also agree, in a daily driver, the DCT isn't needed or even necessarily wanted (other than for those who really want a true MT but can't have it for some reason like the spouse can't drive a manual).
Spot on, I am not an auto fan always chose the MT option....yet have the ZF8AT on order....it is that good

I will miss the opportunity to launch hard, but that is the only function that is not available on the ZF8.
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      12-02-2012, 09:49 AM   #57
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Dumb question... does the 8AT rev match and blip the throttle on downshifts when in manual mode?
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      12-02-2012, 10:09 AM   #58
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I have a highway off ramp on a steep downgrade where I go from highway speeds at 80mph down a hill to 20mph to a stop in 10 seconds...this is where I've noticed the skip.
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      12-02-2012, 10:56 AM   #59
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Quote:
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Dumb question... does the 8AT rev match and blip the throttle on downshifts when in manual mode?
Yes.
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      12-02-2012, 02:43 PM   #60
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Yes.
and it sounds like sex when you have the M Perf Exhaust...it's like a little burble blip, sounds wicked sick. I usually drive around town in Sport/DS mode just so I can hear it....
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      12-02-2012, 06:45 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I agree with this (other than the comment that a DCT is crap in traffic because it isn't and is actually fairly smooth)... I believe the M-DCT might be faster (could be wrong) but at the speed in which they both operate it would be irrelevant. I also do agree that the 8AT is easier to live with day-to-day. The MCT transmission in the C63 is also very fast shifting (quoted at 100ms) which is likely similar to the M-DCT but it is no where near as "connected" or fluid in manual mode as the DCT.

A DCT's advantage is its feel and connection with the car in manual mode and that is the only area where no AT can really compare. The DCT feels and acts like a true manual (because it is) and feels like a direct link to the car. In manual mode and in aggressive driving it is incredibly fun in a way an auto can't match yet. Driving around town, this connection and responsiveness is much less relevant and the DCT isn't as good in those circumstances for sure.
Having driven VW's DSG, and the S4's 7spd "DSG", compared to the ZF sport AT, I agree that there is a difference in "feel" and connection.
Tightest feel goes to the dual clutch. Smoothness goes to the ZF, especially in day to day driving.

Now, after posting all my praises for the ZF sport AT, my AT needs to be looked at. It's acting funny.
When it's cold manual shifts are harsh and abrupt. Even after the engine and trans are very well warmed, manual shifts are not as smooth as they are in auto mode.

Today I got some very odd trans behavior and frankly kind of dangerous.
I was doing some tests of the trans and I got it to do an 8th to 2nd downshift amazingly fast. It was during accel. I was between 40-45mph trans was in AT in 8th. I stomped the throttle to the floor it kicked down to 2nd and took off like a rocket. LOVE the 3.0 turbo.

Then I let things cool down and drove around in comfort auto mode.
I switched to manual and was coming to a stop light. I down shift to 4th it's ok, then 3rd, but it was NOT smooth at all. The trans shifted to 3rd and the car JUMPED forward very aggressively, then I went to 2nd and it did the same thing, JUMPED forward hard. Luckily there was no one in front, but if there were I could have hit their bumper if I wasn't fast on the brake.
I tested this out a couple more times and it did the same thing.
It never did this before.
I went shopping and then came back, started it up, drove, repeated the same test and the downshifts were smooth and rev matched as the should be.

It felt like the "rev matching" wasn't working at all. I select a down shift to 3rd and it goes then lurches hard forward, not good.
I've been wanting to take it in for a few weeks now, but without any codes I'm sure I'll just get the "no problems found" conclusion.
Since trans performance seems to be getting worse I may hold out until something happens. I'll be on vacation around Xmas and won't be going out of town. If this happens again I'm going straight to the dealer, not shut the car off and have the service writer go for a drive.
Hopefully I can repeat the problem.
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      12-02-2012, 06:47 PM   #62
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Sounds like a sensor is off somewhere.
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      12-02-2012, 06:51 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Spot on, I am not an auto fan always chose the MT option....yet have the ZF8AT on order....it is that good

I will miss the opportunity to launch hard, but that is the only function that is not available on the ZF8.
I've never done a hard launch with a dual clutch. I'm sure it's amazing.

You can do a hard launch with the ZF sport AT.
Put the drivers mode in "sport+" and turn DSC/DTC completely off with the separate switch.
Put your foot on the brake, rev the engine to around 2000 rpm and let the brake go with WFO throttle. It launches very hard and fast.
You'll have to experiment with different rpm and modulate the throttle, because it can smoke the tires from a standstill if done that way.
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      12-02-2012, 06:52 PM   #64
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Yes.

Yes it does!
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      12-02-2012, 06:56 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaestroAl View Post
Sounds like a sensor is off somewhere.
Yeah, I'm sure something is off because it was great when I first go it.

But from day 1 my AT didn't feel as smooth as the other AT's I had test driven, which was something like 8 of them.
Auto mode is always extremely smooth with nearly no perception of the up or down shift.
Manual mode is when it's not so smooth.

I had a loaner a couple months ago, an F30 328i and it was much smoother in manual mode than mine.
It wasn't a "sport AT", but down shifts were still much smoother.
I would select a lower gear and I would see the tach move but barely feel the down shift. My AT doesn't feel as smooth, and it seems to be getting worse.
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      12-02-2012, 07:10 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Yeah, I'm sure something is off because it was great when I first go it.

But from day 1 my AT didn't feel as smooth as the other AT's I had test driven, which was something like 8 of them.
Auto mode is always extremely smooth with nearly no perception of the up or down shift.
Manual mode is when it's not so smooth.

I had a loaner a couple months ago, an F30 328i and it was much smoother in manual mode than mine.
It wasn't a "sport AT", but down shifts were still much smoother.
I would select a lower gear and I would see the tach move but barely feel the down shift. My AT doesn't feel as smooth, and it seems to be getting worse.
I haven't tried mine in fully manual mode (Sport+) yet but I'll have a go tomorrow and report back what I find
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