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      11-13-2012, 04:49 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
I understand. I come from the Evo community where we usually get custom tunes done on the dyno or street. These tunes can be used for a wide variety of driving situations.

I'm glad BMS offers this piggyback from road or 1/4 mile use as you said. If BMS cracks the factory ECU and starts custom tuning that would be awesome!



Regarding the lean areas you see, isn't this potentially dangerous for the engine if these areas are too lean? I'm going to be running an aFe cold air intake with aFe intake scoop so won't that cause more lean conditions? I will be using 93 octane since I'm in Ohio.
It depends on what you consider unsafe. I personally don't have telemetry in my BMW because it isn't a race car and I hate seeing gauges so EGT is completely unknown at any given time so it could be really cool outside with super dense air going through almost no filter giving you great power but knock will crack a ring land or worse if it's unchecked although you have the benefit of 93 and while I think BMS was looking for power, I am almost sure they would have tuned to be safe with 91 with some margin.

If it helps for reference, the newest 911 turbo runs under 11.5-12:1 for most of the pull and while not optimal for power.. they do fairly well as far as longevity goes.

aFe posted this dyno pull of their intake vs stock, and their tuner + intake vs stock. Basically the intake alone left it super rich so you should be good. I'm almost sure I remember seeing a graph of BMS + aFe intake + downpipe somewhere but I can't find it now although I remember it was quite legendary.

http://afepower.com/catalog/77-46303...46303F1600.jpg
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      11-13-2012, 05:11 PM   #46
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From what I read the BMS is closed loop so adding modifications is fine. Also the stock ECU has knock detection so I'm assuming it would retard the engine if knock was out of control.

I'll be running the BMS, aFe intake and exhaust.
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      11-13-2012, 07:45 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
From what I read the BMS is closed loop so adding modifications is fine. Also the stock ECU has knock detection so I'm assuming it would retard the engine if knock was out of control.

I'll be running the BMS, aFe intake and exhaust.
Another question from a newbie here. What is knock and knock detection?
What does retard the engine mean? Is it something like stall?
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      11-13-2012, 08:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by MidgetInBikini View Post
Another question from a newbie here. What is knock and knock detection?
What does retard the engine mean? Is it something like stall?
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on engine tech. cool?

The way petrol engines work, the fuel is meant to combust at a particular time interval within the engine cycle. This can change based on a lot of factors but severely with things like octane content of the fuel you use. If this doesn't happen at the expected time, then the engine produces a metallic "knocking" sound and hence the name. Most modern engines have knock detection i.e. they can detect when this happens and then 'retard the engine' i.e. change the cycle timing to minimize this.
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      11-14-2012, 03:35 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by nikneo View Post
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on engine tech. cool?

The way petrol engines work, the fuel is meant to combust at a particular time interval within the engine cycle. This can change based on a lot of factors but severely with things like octane content of the fuel you use. If this doesn't happen at the expected time, then the engine produces a metallic "knocking" sound and hence the name. Most modern engines have knock detection i.e. they can detect when this happens and then 'retard the engine' i.e. change the cycle timing to minimize this.
from what you explain, having a knock on the engine seems like a serious thing. Who would want to hear a loud 'knock' when driving lol
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      11-14-2012, 09:42 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidgetInBikini View Post
from what you explain, having a knock on the engine seems like a serious thing. Who would want to hear a loud 'knock' when driving lol
Caveat: I am not a tuner and the below comments are just based on my decades of tuning my own turbo cars. There may be some things I am wrong about, and some things on which reasonable minds may differ. I'm always open to learning new things!

Knock has the ability to demolish your engine in an instant. The error most people make when tuning their cars is running up to the limit of knock, and trusting the knock sensor to catch the detonation. By the time the knock sensor hears it, the knock already happened. That may be too late.

Remember that a knock sensor is just a microphone (literally) listening to the sounds the engine is making internally. It "hears" a sound that is similar to knock and the ecu determines the severity and duration of the event. If it is sever and/or long lasting, the ecu retards timing and makes the mixture richer until the knock stops. But again the knock has to happen for the sensor to react.

Proper tuning technique is to test your hardware/software to make sure it does not knock more than x% (what x represents varies by application). If the car knocks more than that, then you back the map back down until it doesn't.

Personally I would never buy from a vendor that assures me a product is safe simply because the stock knock sensor is still there. I want to see afr's identical to, or very slightly richer than, stock afr's (measured with a wideband afr meter properly welded into the down pipe upstream of the cat) because we know those are safe for the motor. I also want to see knock counts on a number of different cars to verify the product is generally safe and not just tuned for one specific car. In addition I would want to see what the afr's look like under less than wide open throttle (WOT). An engine can be under extremely high load in low RPM, part throttle/high boost situations. That scenario can be quite a bit more damaging than WOT, high rpm. I personally would rather give up some HP/TQ to install a safer tune and have confidence my car will last.

One thing I keep wondering when reading this thread - why have none of the other major tuners jumped into this arena? Dinan...GIAC...APR...Cobb...Vishnu... Also why are some of the products priced so high (e.g. Hartge)? Do they know something we don't?
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      11-14-2012, 10:54 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mocohead View Post
One thing I keep wondering when reading this thread - why have none of the other major tuners jumped into this arena? Dinan...GIAC...APR...Cobb...Vishnu... Also why are some of the products priced so high (e.g. Hartge)? Do they know something we don't?
Probably many reasons, but one major factor is that automobile manufacturers are taking advantage of the reduced costs of military grade DME encryption, making cracking a factory DME very difficult. Any company that does direct-flash tuning the the eprom will be slower to market than a piggyback-type tuner, which doesn't need to crack the DME to tune.
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      11-14-2012, 11:37 AM   #52
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So Eric wants your take on the safety of the BMS JB1 piggyback and the lean areas on the dyno chart one member was commenting on? Do you think BMS was monitoring knock when developing the piggyback?
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      11-14-2012, 12:13 PM   #53
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Eric I am interested in seeing what data you were able to gather, and what protocols you followed to get it.
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      11-21-2012, 03:56 PM   #54
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What surprises me about Dinan is that currently they have absolutely zero products for the F30, including wheels/suspension/etc. Most odd. I'd figure they'd have something by now.
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      11-21-2012, 07:35 PM   #55
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What surprises me about Dinan is that currently they have absolutely zero products for the F30, including wheels/suspension/etc. Most odd. I'd figure they'd have something by now.
Agreed, Dinan arguably has the closest relationship to BMW direct so any ecu problems could be negotiated and resolved I would think.

BMW released the M performance kit for the N55, but it's a very modest gain for a substantial chunk of change due to some expensive plastic.
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      12-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #56
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Thank you for thorough reply people! What still concerns me though, remains in this broad question -- is it safe to install jb1 on all stock engine?
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      12-03-2012, 09:44 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidgetInBikini View Post
Thank you for thorough reply people! What still concerns me though, remains in this broad question -- is it safe to install jb1 on all stock engine?
I think people have been giving you the best response possible given the absolute lack of real data. If you have any doubts, don't do it. If you can't afford to fix a blown motor out of your own pocket, don't do it.
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      12-03-2012, 10:28 AM   #58
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Well I just installed the aFe intake and BMS stage 1 tune yesterday. Car feels strong and fast! aFe cat back exhaust going in today
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      12-03-2012, 01:30 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
Well I just installed the aFe intake and BMS stage 1 tune yesterday. Car feels strong and fast! aFe cat back exhaust going in today

Do you mind sharing a video of the exhaust and can you do a in car pull? Please
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      12-03-2012, 01:57 PM   #60
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I'm going to take a video of the intake and stock exhaust then with aFe exhaust. Hmmm I'll try to take an in car pull when I get a chance.
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      12-06-2012, 02:24 PM   #61
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Just want to update you guys that I was told by Dinan that they will probably be releasing something within the next three months. Can't wait!
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      12-07-2012, 01:58 PM   #62
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FYI, I emailed COBB about 328i tunes and they basically wrote back saying they are intested in developing for the N20, but have nothing in the works right now.
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      12-14-2012, 12:51 AM   #63
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Just want to update you guys that I was told by Dinan that they will probably be releasing something within the next three months. Can't wait!
I assume they'll be coming out with a tune of some sort. Did they say anything about an exhaust, etc?
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      12-14-2012, 10:01 AM   #64
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I assume they'll be coming out with a tune of some sort. Did they say anything about an exhaust, etc?
When I spoke with Dinan a couple of weeks ago they were less than forthcoming about products for this platform. All they would say is "sign-up for our email newsletter so you know what we are doing..."
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      12-14-2012, 12:29 PM   #65
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I missed the Qs about our JB tuner. Sorry.

We did initial dynos this spring and saw similar increases to Burger's published numbers. There was nothing alarming in the datalogs regarding fuel air mixture. Our method included Dynos on our MD-250 eddy current dyno, with integrated fuel air mapping and logging via OBD port. If memory serves we saw a 42 ft/lb increase in torque and 30 whp. I'd have to go dig up the dyno plots to get the exact numbers.

We had an early beta example of the JB which needed one firmware update. Since that update the vehicle has performed flawlessly for 5000 miles.
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      12-14-2012, 12:51 PM   #66
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Do you mean 30whp and 42lb-ft over stock numbers or over JB published numbers?
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