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      12-03-2012, 07:14 AM   #23
Reznick
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Originally Posted by wayman519 View Post
A smart person would buy based on history. Like how most smart decisions are made based on decisions in the past. Now how many Cadillacs have been equal to or better than BMW's in history. Once you find the facts then make your decision. Don't blindly buy a car because its performance is good. Performance is only a single quality of a machine that contains countless more. Remember the days when the peoples car WV GTI spanked BMWs, Merc's and Audi's at less than half the cost. Nobody thought the GTI was cheap. It was and still is considered a VALUABLE car.
How far would you like to go back in history.?? Cadillac was far superior with their first car since BMW didn't make a car for years after them. My point is that these are mechanical working machines that are constantly improved upon. There was a time not too long ago Toyota was considered unstoppable because their car NEVER broke down.The mighty have fallen fast. Businesses rise and fall. Some on this very site are arguing the BMW has lost its way. Does that mean if they have a 10yr stretch of bad cars you turn your back forever??? A smart person wouldn't dismiss a car simply because of its badge. .As said above, if this car didn't have a wreath on the grille, people would own this car and rave about it. IMHO i still would rank the 3 series 1st but the ATS really is easily 2nd.
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      12-03-2012, 07:22 AM   #24
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Good morning!
Or, there is no accounting for taste!!

Now the GTI is slightly sick and I have to rush it to the doctor. Either the clutch or the engine belt. And it is flipping cold outside.

Just back. Problem gone by itself. Strange.
Exactly my point. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. I know I can always count on you for some good humor
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      12-03-2012, 01:39 PM   #25
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How far would you like to go back in history.?? Cadillac was far superior with their first car since BMW didn't make a car for years after them. My point is that these are mechanical working machines that are constantly improved upon. There was a time not too long ago Toyota was considered unstoppable because their car NEVER broke down.The mighty have fallen fast. Businesses rise and fall. Some on this very site are arguing the BMW has lost its way. Does that mean if they have a 10yr stretch of bad cars you turn your back forever??? A smart person wouldn't dismiss a car simply because of its badge. .As said above, if this car didn't have a wreath on the grille, people would own this car and rave about it. IMHO i still would rank the 3 series 1st but the ATS really is easily 2nd.
I agree, but all I am saying is we cannot just start blindly trusting a new car. This may be a BMW forum, but it is without a doubt a general car enthusiast forum. That said I am cheering for the ATS, but it must prove its self before any real credit is given.
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      12-03-2012, 02:20 PM   #26
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for the ATS.

Do they have a decent one of their own?
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      12-03-2012, 02:41 PM   #27
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I assume that you meant to say "have been (losing) their fair share of competitions lately" ?

Your statements are all fair comment and true. But I do not think I could ever get my head around Cadillac's past reputation, both for the product and for the GM dealer culture. IMO, these remain the biggest handicaps for Cadillac to overcome.

The initial ATS sales are apparently mostly coming at the expense of CTS sales, which have plunged by 40%. GM has responded by cutting CTS production. I doubt that cannibalism within the marque was GM's sales objective.

Whether Cadillac becomes a serious threat to BMW's many loyal fans remains to be seen, but as you so correctly said, "competition is good for the breed".
The CTS is at the end of it's current model's life cycle. As Cisitalia (great automotive reference by the way) says that's why it's losing sales. As far as the dealer culture, I had a 2006 CTS and it was a fine car for the money with good handling and a sweet drivetrain. The dealer experience wasn't as good as from my local BMW dealer but it was far from what one thinks of as typical for GM. And the car except for an alignment issues was dead reliable. If the ATS 2.0T had a more competitive engine and MT, I'd very seriously consider one if the price was right.
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      12-03-2012, 04:27 PM   #28
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The CTS is at the end of it's current model's life cycle. As Cisitalia (great automotive reference by the way) says that's why it's losing sales. As far as the dealer culture, I had a 2006 CTS and it was a fine car for the money with good handling and a sweet drivetrain. The dealer experience wasn't as good as from my local BMW dealer but it was far from what one thinks of as typical for GM. And the car except for an alignment issues was dead reliable. If the ATS 2.0T had a more competitive engine and MT, I'd very seriously consider one if the price was right.
Thanks Michael for the auto brand acknowledgement. Most people probably don't know what Cisitalia was. My interest started via Porsche and the Grand Prix car they made for them. Interesting history and fine Italian sports cars. Sorry for the off topic.
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      12-03-2012, 04:53 PM   #29
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Thanks Michael for the auto brand acknowledgement. Most people probably don't know what Cisitalia was. My interest started via Porsche and the Grand Prix car they made for them. Interesting history and fine Italian sports cars. Sorry for the off topic.
No problem. i think I first read about Cisitalia in Road & Track. The 202 Coupe was a beautiful vehicle!
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      12-04-2012, 12:47 AM   #30
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The guy who drove the Cadillac at the Spartenburg track is completely speaking out of his arse. He says this is Cadillac's first attempt at trying to beat the 3 series. That's 100% a lie. It's more like Cadillac's strike three. I recall very distinctly Cadillac mentioning the BMW 3 series when they were peddling their Catera and Cimarron cars.
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      12-04-2012, 12:56 AM   #31
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The guy who drove the Cadillac at the Spartenburg track is completely speaking out of his arse. He says this is Cadillac's first attempt at trying to beat the 3 series. That's 100% a lie. It's more like Cadillac's strike three. I recall very distinctly Cadillac mentioning the BMW 3 series when they were peddling their Catera and Cimarron cars.
And CTS and CTS-V... I recall they even have an advertisement for the XTS that mentions their use of front Brembo brakes and how others don't.

Now if they could just cut down on some of the razor edge lines, oversize chrome grills and headlights that run half way up the hood...

Nevertheless, GM products are improving. Hopefully they don't mess with a good re-start post bankruptcy. I'm keenly interested in seeing the next gen CTS and the new rear drive platform they have coming for 2015 to compete with the 7 series. If they price it right and create a competitive driving experience (like the ATS) they could begin to sway some. All it takes is a good start.

Remember Acura then Lexus in the 1980s? BMW and Mercedes laughed them off at first.
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      12-04-2012, 06:29 AM   #32
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NYT sucks and so does Cadillac. I wouldn't be caught dead in an American car but it's more of a political statement for me. I don't want ONE PENNY of my money going to the lame azz UAW...Nuff said.
Agreed. This, plus I have zero respect for government motors for crawling tails tucked and hands out for help after running themself into the ground. Then they double-fukked Saab, first by ruining them with their pathetic platforms, then blocking their sale attempts. Too bad Saab didnt have a rich governent 'daddy' to go running to for help, like gm did....

At any rate, the only comparison that explained in simple terms why the ats isnt ready for the spotlight yet was road and track; its slower, less refined, thirstier, less practical, has a lame shifter and CUE sucks compared to idrive. So Im curious again, why should this thing be taken seriously?
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      12-04-2012, 07:09 AM   #33
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Agreed. This, plus I have zero respect for government motors for crawling tails tucked and hands out for help after running themself into the ground. Then they double-fukked Saab, first by ruining them with their pathetic platforms, then blocking their sale attempts. Too bad Saab didnt have a rich governent 'daddy' to go running to for help, like gm did....

At any rate, the only comparison that explained in simple terms why the ats isnt ready for the spotlight yet was road and track; its slower, less refined, thirstier, less practical, has a lame shifter and CUE sucks compared to idrive. So Im curious again, why should this thing be taken seriously?
Wait, wait , wait. LOL, SAAB? SAAB was about dead when GM, errantly, took them over. GM did't kill SAAB, it was dead and GM tried to resuscitate it by amortizing production costs over a wider range of platforms (go read up on how VW makes on the order of 19 different models off of one platform). It's a global market folks. Small, independent car companies like SAAB can't make it in today's (since the 1990's) global automotive market. SAAB had a rich commercial car company bail them out and at a cost to GM of bankruptcy.

And go read up on how many other industries (like the food you eat) are subsidized by Uncle Sam.
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      12-04-2012, 07:14 AM   #34
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A smart person would buy based on history. Like how most smart decisions are made based on decisions in the past. Now how many Cadillacs have been equal to or better than BMW's in history. Once you find the facts then make your decision. Don't blindly buy a car because its performance is good. Performance is only a single quality of a machine that contains countless more. Remember the days when the peoples car WV GTI spanked BMWs, Merc's and Audi's at less than half the cost. Nobody thought the GTI was cheap. It was and still is considered a VALUABLE car.
So you must have missed the late 70's and early 80's when Audi's about the shittiest car you could buy. And you must have missed the mid 90's when VWs had terrible build quality.
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      12-04-2012, 09:25 AM   #35
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for the ATS.

Do they have a decent one of their own?
No they don't have a good one like this forum. Maybe an ATS sub-forum here?
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      12-04-2012, 09:27 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Turbotx View Post
Agreed. This, plus I have zero respect for government motors for crawling tails tucked and hands out for help after running themself into the ground. Then they double-fukked Saab, first by ruining them with their pathetic platforms, then blocking their sale attempts. Too bad Saab didnt have a rich governent 'daddy' to go running to for help, like gm did....

At any rate, the only comparison that explained in simple terms why the ats isnt ready for the spotlight yet was road and track; its slower, less refined, thirstier, less practical, has a lame shifter and CUE sucks compared to idrive. So Im curious again, why should this thing be taken seriously?
Road & Track also said, like nearly every review, that the ATS is a sharper handling car than the 3 series which has been Cadillac's goal. They are not far behind in the other aspects by the way. The ATS is a clean sheet effort by Cadillac and is close to the F30 so BMW had better stay on their toes or they will fall behind.

I know this a 3 series forum and I'm not my second E90 and would consider an F30 once my lease ends but when Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti and Lexus introduce their next cars in this class, it's quite possible that the 3 series could lose a lot of comparo's. Lets not drink too much Kool Ade.
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      12-04-2012, 09:45 AM   #37
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The guy who drove the Cadillac at the Spartenburg track is completely speaking out of his arse. He says this is Cadillac's first attempt at trying to beat the 3 series. That's 100% a lie. It's more like Cadillac's strike three. I recall very distinctly Cadillac mentioning the BMW 3 series when they were peddling their Catera and Cimarron cars.
It's the first clean sheet design with its own dedicated platform to be more specific. The Cimarron was based on the Cavalier and the Catera on Omega which is basically a Euro family sedan.

The CTS was a tweener which worked for awhile but in terms of product placement, Cadillac is finally going right sized. The new CTS should be a very good 5-series competitor.
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      12-04-2012, 01:11 PM   #38
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Cadillac is only a potential threat in the North-American market. Do they even sell cars in Europe? I have never seen a Cadillac over there. No wonder BMW doesn't give a crap.

There was an ATS at the Mall the other day (only place where I would consider approaching one lol) and let me tell you, you better not be claustrophobic if you want to sit in this tuna can. It felt (and was) so cramped. And the back seat felt like a weird 2 seater couch that had collapsed. You need a crane to exit this car. The car looks big outside and is so tiny inside. I wonder what they hide in the walls? Maybe lead that's why it feels so heavy.
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