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      12-05-2012, 11:56 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat View Post
First of all, go fuck yourself. I saw some other people had said they found a lot of rust within the HVAC systems, so I took the better part of 5 seconds to pop off the piece and snap a pic out of curiosity. I didn't see anything bad, but decided to contribute my picture in case anybody else was curious seeing as this was in a thread ABOUT RUST. The seats being rusted is just ridiculous and the rusted parts should be replaced.

Secondly, a brief browse of your comment history shows you are literally just complaining about people being stupid for wanting to do this or that. This is an internet forum about our cars, so if people see a potential problem or something they don't like, they talk about it with the hopes of resolving said issue or spreading around some knowledge. If you want to sit online and nitpick us instead of your car, I suggest you check out Reddit or 4chan where at least there is an expectation of worthless comments.
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      12-06-2012, 01:28 AM   #134
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Dude, all you got to do is move the seat back to the lowest position, no pushing/pulling back leather covers required.

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Originally Posted by claykin View Post
How are you exposing the corner hinge? I've never seen one of those show like that? Are you pushing back the leather covers? Not that I want to do it, just curious...
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      12-06-2012, 01:35 AM   #135
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I'm not accepting that explanation at all, but I'm trying to be civil and keeping it in perspective. Yes, it sucks ass, but the way I see it. The service ppl didn't make the piss poor decision not to paint or protect the metal frames on the seat. So why unload on them? Hopefully in return they can help me find a solution.

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Haha, will it be normal for a car to explode if the other exploded also?
I wouldn't take it as explanation.
I 'll take it as a manufacture trying to cut too much cost and earn too much profit, period. :
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      12-06-2012, 03:34 AM   #136
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I took mine into the dealer and they swapped out the seat bases. It took a couple of days but I am happy to report no more problems.
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      12-06-2012, 07:34 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by lewishamilton View Post
I'm not accepting that explanation at all, but I'm trying to be civil and keeping it in perspective. Yes, it sucks ass, but the way I see it. The service ppl didn't make the piss poor decision not to paint or protect the metal frames on the seat. So why unload on them? Hopefully in return they can help me find a solution.
Respect!! Hope they will fix it for you asap.
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      12-06-2012, 09:11 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
Nice.

Yep, I complain about idiocy. That's my thing. I also try to inject an ounce of reason here and there in amonst the hysteria.

Seriously, this whole thing is assanine. This isn't a cost cutting issue or any other BS. There's zero reason to paint a seat pan or a dash support. I've yet to come across a car that was painted.

There's so much posturing on principals on this forum it's becoming rather nauseating. Just because it's an $xxK car doesn't mean a damn thing. It's a car. I'll bet $10 a peak under the seat of a Bentley will reveal the same thing.

And FYI, you're not photographing your "HVAC system". That's your dash support...
That is why I said "within the HVAC system", implying the picture was taken from within the vents. Again, worthless contribution, if you have nothing to add to this thread stop posting in it.

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Originally Posted by SwampCat84 View Post
Well, Just checked mine and theres a whole lot of rust on the bottom of my seats.. havent checked anywhere else yet.. My car is all of a week and a half old... THERE SHOULDNT BE RUST IN IT! I paid $43,000 for this car... I have every right to be upset if it came with RUST in it! BMW will be replacing my seats or they can have their f**ing car back... I still have yet to pay $.01 for this car...
That is really bad, have you called the dealer yet?
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      12-06-2012, 09:55 AM   #139
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      12-06-2012, 11:23 AM   #140
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Oh, crap. Canadian version too? I have to check mine ASAP...
I checked my 2013 328i xDrive (1 month old one), and found a few (5 ~ 7) rust spots under both seats.
I guess the rust will be spreading out all over the metal frames by next year if I don't do anything.

Considering to apply rust prevention spray.... Is it going to be worth a try?

I am kind a lazy to visit my dealer and explain the whole BMW 'RUSTGATE' issue when my sales guy is staring me like I'm an alien.....

My previous Japanese and Korean cars (don't know about US cars) didn't have any rusty spots at all, inside or outside, even in the harsh Canadian salty road condition....

I do love driving my xDrive, but I'm so disappointed that BMW has adopted such poor quality seat metal frame... What a shame!
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      12-06-2012, 11:35 AM   #141
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Wow this is surprising. I agree that a car that costs this much from a brand that prides itself on being the pinnacle of sports luxury should not be having these problems on cars that are less than a year old. I wouldn't even expect those problems on a new Hyundai let alone a new BMW. Doesn't matter if the rust is going to eat through the car or not, it is the fact that everyone here is spending a lot of money on what they believe is a quality car and rust buildup like that has no excuse other than poor quality control. I hope BMW remedies this. Yet another reason why I will be waiting a few years to buy an F30.
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      12-06-2012, 12:40 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
It's surface rust. It's NOT going to get worse. It's NOT going to compromise the integrity of the car or affect it's safety/functionality/longevity.
Wow, seems like you don't have any common sense at all.

"It's NOT going to get worse" --> Wrong, it WILL get worse and worse, year after year after. It's a simple FACT for surface rust.

"It's NOT going to compromise the integrity of the car or affect it's safety/functionality/longevity." --> Wrong, it IS safety issue! Small rust particles can be a serious safety issue, and over the years of rust procedures, you may breath in tiny rust particles in your lung and can cause cancer. If you mentioned about the outside rust like under body, then it may be OK, but it's big NO NO if rust is inside.

Better to check your cars too. Good luck!
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      12-06-2012, 03:00 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerHJ View Post
I checked my 2013 328i xDrive (1 month old one), and found a few (5 ~ 7) rust spots under both seats.
I guess the rust will be spreading out all over the metal frames by next year if I don't do anything.

Considering to apply rust prevention spray.... Is it going to be worth a try?

I am kind a lazy to visit my dealer and explain the whole BMW 'RUSTGATE' issue when my sales guy is staring me like I'm an alien.....

My previous Japanese and Korean cars (don't know about US cars) didn't have any rusty spots at all, inside or outside, even in the harsh Canadian salty road condition....

I do love driving my xDrive, but I'm so disappointed that BMW has adopted such poor quality seat metal frame... What a shame!
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they laugh at you.

That said, if it were my car, I would probably disassemble the seat, sand down the affected parts, and prime/spray them with some semi-gloss black Krylon and be done with it.

Unfortunately, I believe that if you completely remove the seats from the car you need to have the airbag light reset by the dealership afterwards, at least I believe that to be true of E9x (I haven't tried, 'cause I don't like spending money unnecessarily.) Maybe if you explain the situation to them they'll do it for free if you paint the metal bits yourself.

Having grown up in western PA, I fear rust in all its forms... hate it hate it hate it!
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      12-06-2012, 03:02 PM   #144
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Mine has it too.
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      12-06-2012, 05:45 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerHJ View Post
Wow, seems like you don't have any common sense at all.

"It's NOT going to get worse" --> Wrong, it WILL get worse and worse, year after year after. It's a simple FACT for surface rust.

"It's NOT going to compromise the integrity of the car or affect it's safety/functionality/longevity." --> Wrong, it IS safety issue! Small rust particles can be a serious safety issue, and over the years of rust procedures, you may breath in tiny rust particles in your lung and can cause cancer. If you mentioned about the outside rust like under body, then it may be OK, but it's big NO NO if rust is inside.

Better to check your cars too. Good luck!


Rust will only develop if the metal is subjected to extended periods of time of high humidity/salinity. It's develops more rapidly at elevated ambient temperatures. A little known fact is that surface rust is actually protective for most alloys. Once it develops, it never goes any deeper. In this case, the only way you'll see an extensive bloom is if you park the car for months at a time with water sitting in the footwells or are close to an ocean. I'm guessing what we've seen up to this point developed while the cars were enroute on a very humid ship. Be careful tossing the word fact around. There are a million variables at play that can affect the outcome. I don't think anyone can definitively say what the affected cars have/have not been subjected to.

Regarding the claims of a health hazard, I'd love to see references to inhalation of rust particles leading to cancer (short of occupational exposure over extended periods). Regardless, the only way you'll ever be exposed to airborne rust particles is if you've mechanically disturbed it. There's nothing to motivate it to jump into the air otherwise. There are far worse hazards that you'll encounter during your day that should concern you more than rusty seat pans.

I'm not looking to pick a fight, I'm just trying to keep this in perspective. If anyone attempts to get help from their dealer making claims such as these they'll have an uphill battle for sure. You need to be rational and have reasonable expectations. I AGREE that it really shouldn't be there and that it should be addressed. But I also don't think it's the end of the world. It's a cosmetic issue, nothing more. Your opinion may vary.

I happen to like rusty BMWs:

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      12-06-2012, 06:24 PM   #146
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I'm no expert in materials science, but a quick google search on surface rust got me this:

"Surface rust is flaky and friable, and provides no protection to the underlying iron, unlike the formation of patina on copper surfaces."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust

and Steel is made of:

"Steel is an alloy made by combining iron and other elements, the most common of these being carbon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

So is surface rust on steel actually protective??

Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
Rust will only develop if the metal is subjected to extended periods of time of high humidity/salinity. It's develops more rapidly at elevated ambient temperatures. A little known fact is that surface rust is actually protective for most alloys. Once it develops, it never goes any deeper. In this case, the only way you'll see an extensive bloom is if you park the car for months at a time with water sitting in the footwells or are close to an ocean. I'm guessing what we've seen up to this point developed while the cars were enroute on a very humid ship. Be careful tossing the word fact around. There are a million variables at play that can affect the outcome. I don't think anyone can definitively say what the affected cars have/have not been subjected to.

Regarding the claims of a health hazard, I'd love to see references to inhalation of rust particles leading to cancer (short of occupational exposure over extended periods). Regardless, the only way you'll ever be exposed to airborne rust particles is if you've mechanically disturbed it. There's nothing to motivate it to jump into the air otherwise. There are far worse hazards that you'll encounter during your day that should concern you more than rusty seat pans.

I'm not looking to pick a fight, I'm just trying to keep this in perspective. If anyone attempts to get help from their dealer making claims such as these they'll have an uphill battle for sure. You need to be rational and have reasonable expectations. I AGREE that it really shouldn't be there and that it should be addressed. But I also don't think it's the end of the world. It's a cosmetic issue, nothing more. Your opinion may vary.

I happen to like rusty BMWs:

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      12-06-2012, 06:40 PM   #147
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Small rust particles can be a serious safety issue, and over the years of rust procedures, you may breath in tiny rust particles in your lung and can cause cancer.
Nonsense, other than possibly with heavy occupational exposure - continually introducing any small particles into the lungs can cause health issues, hardly an analogous situation.

There happens to be recent research however that nano sized bits of iron oxide can be employed to fight cancer. It's a bit more complicated than breathing it in however.
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      12-06-2012, 06:56 PM   #148
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dealership response

What's the number for BMWNA customer service?

Got it back from dealer and they said this is expected because it's unpainted.

Umm. The underside of my BMW isn't painted and has no rust. WTF.

We need to all call and complain to get this taken care of!
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      12-06-2012, 06:59 PM   #149
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It just makes you wonder if the undersides of the seat frames and metal near the HVAC are rusting after weeks or months, what other parts of the car will begin to rust that you can't see as easily. My mom had an old 70's Camaro...beautiful car...but there was a manufacturing error that caused one half of the car to rust through completely within 10 years. She ended up selling the thing for parts since the entire frame was trashed.
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      12-06-2012, 07:04 PM   #150
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I can see the ramifications. People buying used will be checking under the seat from here on out, even the dealers will devalue your trade-ins. IF you didn't know you had rust and it devalued your car, wouldn't you be pissed? I'm not saying I'd have done it, but good for him. He made a statement. Because of him, a lot of people are finding out NOW, rather than later.
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      12-06-2012, 09:06 PM   #151
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I think the issues raised by the rusty seat frames are more complicated than the obvious ones -- like whether the rust is surface rust (which may need period cleaning to prevent deterioration), or whether the affected areas are out-of-sight (and therefore out-of-mind).

Remember these are brand new cars that just rolled off the production line. The type of rust reported should only be evident on internal (not exposed to moisture) unpainted metal surfaces after many years, not straight off the production line. There should be ZERO rust in a brand new car whether it's a BMW, Hyundai or Great Wall.

The questions that come to mind:
  • Are the materials used sub-standard or defective in some way? If so, what other sub-standard/defective materials are used in the car?
  • Were the materials inadvertently exposed to moisture/corrosive agents during manufacture? If so, is the problem limited to the seats, or does it affect other components?
  • If such an obvious problem slipped through BMW quality control, what other potential problems are lurking in the car?
  • If BMW insist on repairing/cleaning the affected seats instead of replacing them, will they guarantee the repairs in writing over a reasonable period (say, 10 years)?

Last edited by bcoz; 12-06-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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      12-06-2012, 09:22 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by lewishamilton View Post
I'm no expert in materials science, but a quick google search on surface rust got me this:

"Surface rust is flaky and friable, and provides no protection to the underlying iron, unlike the formation of patina on copper surfaces."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust

and Steel is made of:

"Steel is an alloy made by combining iron and other elements, the most common of these being carbon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

So is surface rust on steel actually protective??
Wikipedia is NOT a valid reference for much of anything technical.

Try this regarding rust as a form of protection:
http://www.aisc.org/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=20278

At a generic level, "steel" IS an alloy by definition. But there's a multitude of different steel alloys. In fact there are dozens of different alloys utilized in a typical car based on the desired characteristics of a given component/body section. That crash bar in the dash is designed to retain it's shape in a side impact collision so it's a high strength alloy. The seats are designed to deform and absorb energy in a collision, but they need to withstand many years of constant abuse, so they're a medium strength alloy. Neither of these are mild steel which is what everyone is most familiar with when it comes to rust and corrosion. Mild steel will eventually rust away to nothing. More sophisticated alloys will not (at least not when protected from the weather/corrosive environments).
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      12-06-2012, 09:24 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
What's the number for BMWNA customer service?

Got it back from dealer and they said this is expected because it's unpainted.

Umm. The underside of my BMW isn't painted and has no rust. WTF.

We need to all call and complain to get this taken care of!
The underside of your car IS painted. In fact, the entire unibody has multiple layers/types of paint. It just doesn't have the pretty colored paint you on the shiny side.
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      12-06-2012, 11:23 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
Wikipedia is NOT a valid reference for much of anything technical.

Try this regarding rust as a form of protection:
http://www.aisc.org/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=20278

At a generic level, "steel" IS an alloy by definition. But there's a multitude of different steel alloys. In fact there are dozens of different alloys utilized in a typical car based on the desired characteristics of a given component/body section. That crash bar in the dash is designed to retain it's shape in a side impact collision so it's a high strength alloy. The seats are designed to deform and absorb energy in a collision, but they need to withstand many years of constant abuse, so they're a medium strength alloy. Neither of these are mild steel which is what everyone is most familiar with when it comes to rust and corrosion. Mild steel will eventually rust away to nothing. More sophisticated alloys will not (at least not when protected from the weather/corrosive environments).
So you're saying that there are various grades of steel. Each with varying degrees of rust resistance. I would say the inside of a car is relatively quite well protected from the environment assuming that you don't spill anything on it or pissing in your pants or keeping the door open for hours on end in the rain. This is happening on brand new cars straight from the factory. Why then would there be surface rust at all? Following your logic of different grades of steel. My only conclusion would be that someone decided to source a lower grade of steel that when exposed to the slightest bit of moisture in the air produces surface rust. In a BMW that is totally unacceptable, and there's simply no way you can make the case that it should be acceptable.

When a company decides that chasing $$$ as their primary goal it goes all to crap. Where did the passion go to make the best product in the world? Products come first, $$$ is the by-product! I'm not letting BMW off the hook for this!
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