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      12-11-2012, 08:49 PM   #1
johnnytyler24
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H&R sport springs with Adaptive Suspension

HI, I posted this in another thread but got no responses and thus will ask again in a dedicated thread.


can anyone comment who has the H&R sport springs as to how the ride is with the adaptive suspension, thinking about getting it but concerned that the ride maybe to harsh and how much more drop does it give you? Any regrets?"

I would appreciate it if people with this set up can comment on there experiences.
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      12-13-2012, 03:42 AM   #2
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i am also curious about this. also wondering if its possible to just cut the springs?
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      12-13-2012, 07:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cfichman View Post
i am also curious about this. also wondering if its possible to just cut the springs?
Umm, NO, do NOT cut your springs. However possible, do not do it - no further explanation.

There are a few people on here running H&R Sports w/ the adaptive suspension so hopefully they will chime in. After reading other's experience, I will be putting H&R Sport on as soon as I get my car and hit 1000 miles. Already have them on order.

From what I've gathered, some say it makes the ride bumpy but most people say that it improves the feel, especially in Sport mode. I think in Comfort mode it's a little bouncy. The drop should be about an inch all the way around.
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      12-13-2012, 08:04 AM   #4
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This guys has combined adaptive suspension and H&R Sport Springs.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757544

I'll be doing the same with my 335i. That is when I get it. I'll be another 2 months.
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      12-13-2012, 03:47 PM   #5
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Here are my first impressions that I posted awhile back: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755246 After a couple thousand miles, I haven't changed my opinion. I drive almost exclusively in Sport or Sport+...Comfort can be a bit bouncy....but as I noted in my first impressions, it's not as bouncy as I have experienced with other cars with aftermarket springs and stock dampers.

It's clearly stiffer and you certainly feel more of the bumps, but I've never once regreted it.
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      12-13-2012, 04:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnytyler24 View Post
HI, I posted this in another thread but got no responses and thus will ask again in a dedicated thread.


can anyone comment who has the H&R sport springs as to how the ride is with the adaptive suspension, thinking about getting it but concerned that the ride maybe to harsh and how much more drop does it give you? Any regrets?"

I would appreciate it if people with this set up can comment on there experiences.
Normally the M-adaptive suspension carries the same 10mm drop that the Sport-Line and M-Sport have (with the exception of the AWD models, which carry no drop)

So, if you have M-adaptive, Sport-line or M-Sport, the H&R sport springs will drop you an additional
Front - 1.3 in (33 mm)
Rear - 0.7 in (17.8 mm)
If you have the regular suspension, the drop will be 10mm more or
Front - 1.5 in (38 mm)
Rear - 1.0 in (25.5 mm)

Sourced from H&R's website here
http://www.hrsprings.com/scripts/app...Find3&MakeID=4

Super Sport drops are listed there as well - basically they're 0.3 in lower than sport in front and back (7.6 mm)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cfichman View Post
i am also curious about this. also wondering if its possible to just cut the springs?
Dear god don't do that - these are progressive springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeb817 View Post
Here are my first impressions that I posted awhile back: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=755246 After a couple thousand miles, I haven't changed my opinion. I drive almost exclusively in Sport or Sport+...Comfort can be a bit bouncy....but as I noted in my first impressions, it's not as bouncy as I have experienced with other cars with aftermarket springs and stock dampers.

It's clearly stiffer and you certainly feel more of the bumps, but I've never once regreted it.
Is comfort with the H&R's sports more bouncy than stock comfort?
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      12-14-2012, 04:32 PM   #7
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Just my personal curiousity that according to most of the opinions that I heard from frineds or garage mechanic or bmw's mechanic that if you just change the short spring like Super Sport Spring of H & R, since your stock shock won't be a shorter shock and after you have installed the shorter spring, will damage the stock shock and can't sustain for long period, are they right?
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      12-14-2012, 05:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renus View Post
Just my personal curiousity that according to most of the opinions that I heard from frineds or garage mechanic or bmw's mechanic that if you just change the short spring like Super Sport Spring of H & R, since your stock shock won't be a shorter shock and after you have installed the shorter spring, will damage the stock shock and can't sustain for long period, are they right?
Yes they are correct with an aggressive spring like the Super Sport. You should be ok w/ the Sport Spring. They just released the M performance springs which changes the springs and not the struts/shocks. The Sport springs barely drop more than the M Performance springs.
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      12-15-2012, 12:10 AM   #9
johnnytyler24
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My biggest concern is that if I add the H&R springs with the adaptive suspension and some malfunction happens than I think that the H&R springs would void the warranty for the suspension, is that correct?
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      12-15-2012, 08:04 AM   #10
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Yea you're probably right. Just keep your stock springs so you can throw them back on if you need to take it in for warranty.
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      12-16-2012, 11:18 PM   #11
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I've been running the H&R sport with m-adaptive since I got the car so I can't comment on the difference but I'm at 5k now and I don't have any complaints/problems.
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      12-17-2012, 12:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renus View Post
Just my personal curiousity that according to most of the opinions that I heard from frineds or garage mechanic or bmw's mechanic that if you just change the short spring like Super Sport Spring of H & R, since your stock shock won't be a shorter shock and after you have installed the shorter spring, will damage the stock shock and can't sustain for long period, are they right?
That would be true if the springs are so short that the dampers would fully compress while the car is stationary/static. If that were the case, then your car is not being supported by the springs, as it should be, but rather by the fully collapsed damper on the bump stops.
Or, the springs are so short that they do hold up the car, but there is very very little travel left in the damper for any bump. If so, then when the car hits even a small bump or dip in the road, the damper would reach it's compression limit and constantly hit the bump stops.
That ride would be horrible, and worse the handling would be dangerous, as there would be no more compression travel, pretty much like driving Fred Flintstones car.
Is the HR spring that short? If it is then stay away from it if you want to use your stock dampers.

Another option that would also keep warrant intact would be installing the M Performance springs.
The M Performance springs lower the ride height an additional 10mm from the stock sport/Msport springs.
If you recall in another thread there is an owner (shivasworth I think) using the M Perf dampers but using the stock sport/Msport springs.
He started with the standard non sport suspension, now upgraded to the M Perf dampers.
He likes the ride and says handling is much improved as well.

I'm thinking about trying the M Perf springs with my M adaptive dampers.
If the M Perf springs are like other M Perf kits, the springs will be about 34% stiffer. That will make for a nice firmer sport mode.
Comfort mode with the M adaptive dampers will be firmer, but since the dampers are adaptive it should still be a nice comfy ride, just firmer, which appeals to me.

For me, the sport/Msport suspension springs are still too soft.
I think they are only 14% firmer compared to the stock/non sport suspension.
That's not very much at all. Sport/Msport springs should have been at least 20-25% firmer.
Seems BMW may have done that to get sport/Msport owners to cough up more cash for the M Perf suspension.
Can't prove that, just say'in.

Last edited by RPM90; 12-17-2012 at 12:19 AM.
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      12-17-2012, 12:54 AM   #13
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I'm having this the same issue right now have M adaptive but I have xdrive as well.
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      12-17-2012, 05:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Another option that would also keep warrant intact would be installing the M Performance springs.
The M Performance springs lower the ride height an additional 10mm from the stock sport/Msport springs.
Do you think BMW would approve the M Performance springs for the adaptive suspension?

I've a feeling BMW won't cover the change, can imagine the response will be something like "the adaptive package is designed to run on 'xxx' springs so any change will not be compatible".

Personally I find it hard to see how the variable damping will work with a much stiffer spring, OK will give some kind of ride/handling balance. But whether balanced to the damping parameters, that will be the test.

I've the 5-series with 3 mode settings, comfort, normal and sport. I sense with the stock springs that 'normal' gives the best damping/spring balance. Looking very critically at the damping, even though the other two settings work well, it is clear each is a compromise on damping the spring. Comfort when pushed, is giving that slightly underdamped feel, sport tends towards that over-damped, the over powering feel on a spring. Very subtle, but still there to sense.

It is really what we'd expect, as this is what happens with passive damping, when we play with damping rates on a given spring. But I do wonder when we change springs to a stiffer and shorter spring, how the variable function can adapt to the stiffer spring. In comfort mode, I sense the spring will overwhelm the damper setting, hence the comments of a "bit bouncy", the spring is not 100% controlled. Will the sport setting be enough damping for the new spring rate? That is what I'd be thinking. To me it is as if you'd want to turn up the damping rate parameters by xx% as well.

I suppose it depends on what you want, and what compromises you are willing to live with, but an experiment all the same.

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      12-18-2012, 11:25 PM   #15
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I apologize if this is not completely on point, but the Sport package cars are already lower than non-sports, hence why the H&R site lists different drops for models equipped and not. If I was planning on leaving the stock 18" M-Sport wheels on mine I think I would opt to go for the Super Sport setup, but my concern is the car will then be too low if I put on some 19's ... thoughts? Has anyone run both where they can post a side-by-side?
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      12-19-2012, 12:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Do you think BMW would approve the M Performance springs for the adaptive suspension?

I've a feeling BMW won't cover the change, can imagine the response will be something like "the adaptive package is designed to run on 'xxx' springs so any change will not be compatible".

Personally I find it hard to see how the variable damping will work with a much stiffer spring, OK will give some kind of ride/handling balance. But whether balanced to the damping parameters, that will be the test.

I've the 5-series with 3 mode settings, comfort, normal and sport. I sense with the stock springs that 'normal' gives the best damping/spring balance. Looking very critically at the damping, even though the other two settings work well, it is clear each is a compromise on damping the spring. Comfort when pushed, is giving that slightly underdamped feel, sport tends towards that over-damped, the over powering feel on a spring. Very subtle, but still there to sense.

It is really what we'd expect, as this is what happens with passive damping, when we play with damping rates on a given spring. But I do wonder when we change springs to a stiffer and shorter spring, how the variable function can adapt to the stiffer spring. In comfort mode, I sense the spring will overwhelm the damper setting, hence the comments of a "bit bouncy", the spring is not 100% controlled. Will the sport setting be enough damping for the new spring rate? That is what I'd be thinking. To me it is as if you'd want to turn up the damping rate parameters by xx% as well.

I suppose it depends on what you want, and what compromises you are willing to live with, but an experiment all the same.

HighlandPete
Your questions and concerns are mine as well.
I don't have definitive answers, so I gotta go with what I think I know.
I will be asking about the warranty though, as I don't need to try the springs to get that answered.
Without getting a definitive answer I can't say yes or not.

How will it work? Can't say as no one has tried it yet.
Again my sense is that the dampers have plenty of "head room" by which they can handle a firmer spring.
A firmer spring needs more force to compress it a given distance, compared to a lighter/softer rate spring, so it actually moves/travels a shorter distance for a given bump.
Consider a given bump, with a lighter/stock spring rate, hitting that bump may compress the spring 3 inches, damper takes care of it.
With a heavier spring rate, hitting that same bump may compress the spring only 2 inches. So actual damper travel distance isn't too much concern, even with a minor 10mm shorter spring, which is about 1/2".

Compression and rebound damping is the greater concern.
With a static damper that is designed to handle a certain spring rate I would be more concerned that it wouldn't handle the spring as well as the valving can't adjust. It's tuned for a given spring.
People have put on firmer rate springs in cars using OEM shocks and then report a "bouncy" ride. That's because the damper can't control the action of the firmer and shorter spring as quickly as a damper designed for it, so the ride will be bouncy/springy. The internal valves are set for a certain level of fluid flow through them to control the spring. Since it has no way to alter the valve openings it's not able to handle the different level of fluid flow.

A shorter spring won't compress as far on a given bump, but the energy sent through the spring is still there, and thus the fluid will likely need to flow at a faster rate, as it needs to do so in a shorter period of time as the spring is not moving as much.

I'm guessing that the adaptive damper can handle it as it has the capability to adjust the valve openings, and if it needs to flow a given amount of fluid in a shorter time it can open and close the valves as needed.
Will it work? Can't say positively.
But, I'd like to try it. If the cost is reasonable it would be worth it as I don't want to go with non BMW springs, per the warranty question.

There's a fellow member on here who is running M Perf dampers with the stock springs and he likes the improvement a lot. The problem he could have had is that the system is under sprung and over damped, which would result in a jarring ride on smaller bumps (too much compression damping) and can cause the tire to skip off the pavement (too much rebound), but he says it's very nice. Leads me to think that the tuning/valving of the M Perf dampers is very near the adaptive dampers. Again, I'm giving it a guess, as I can't be positive.

BTW, my 135i with RFT's was under sprung and over damped, and the rear end would literally jump off bigger bumps. Switching to non RFT's helped stop that as the tires could now absorb some of the compression energy.

Adaptive in my 335i has only 2 settings, comfort and sport.
The difference is noticeable. In comfort ride is smoother, meaning, the bumps and dips are better absorbed. Handling wise, it's as one would expect it's "softer" as I can feel the ends off the car dipping down farther, and it allows greater body motion left/right and fore/aft.
Sport mode allows more of the road surface to be felt, but it's far from objectionable, it's very nice. Yet, as I've said, it's still soft for a "sport" suspension. It can easily use more spring. Handling is crisper, chassis responds quicker as there is less dipping all around, and even body sway is better controlled.

As you pointed out, it's a compromise. But having adaptive dampers helps that compromise. I'm surprised BMW didn't use adaptive dampers for it's
M Performance setup. My guess as to why not is because I think the cost would have been too much. When M adaptive was first released I think it was around $900. With DHP adaptive and VSS is $1000. You can look at it like the adaptive cost less or the VSS cost less, or a little off each one, as I think VSS was $300 on it's own.

I guess I'm considering putting my money on the adaptive dampers being much better and more capable than the stock sport dampers.
If it's works I think the adaptive dampers with M Perf springs may even be better than the M Performance setup due to their ability to control the spring dynamically. I can't see removing the adaptive system to go with M Perf.
M Perf is more for cars with either the stock suspension or the sport suspension.
If it doesn't work I may be able to sell the springs to someone who is looking to install the whole setup, and I can sell at a discount.
But if it does work, sweet.
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      12-19-2012, 02:30 PM   #17
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Like any suspension set-up with aftermarket lowering springs on stock shcoks, the wear will be increased, but not by my much. With the Super Sport aside, you may feel the extra wear on the shocks maybe 30-40k miles into your driving, and it will still be minimul.

As far as warranty goes, I would switch the stock springs in before I sent in my car if your shocks actually do blow out, and I would go out on a limb and say you'll be able to do this once, if its even necessary.

BMW is raping everyone on M performance stuff, E90's sat dumped to the ground right from the factory, no need for lowering springs. THis is the new direction they are going, and they want you to buy their overpriced stuff.
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      12-19-2012, 11:55 PM   #18
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How many of you have the sport line (w/o adaptive suspension) and the H&R springs? I can see aesthetic benefit of lowering the car, but is there a noticeable difference in handling as well? If so, how much? Thank you!
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      12-20-2012, 05:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frost335 View Post
How many of you have the sport line (w/o adaptive suspension) and the H&R springs? I can see aesthetic benefit of lowering the car, but is there a noticeable difference in handling as well? If so, how much? Thank you!
Handling may be different, but whether better for road use, that is open to debate. Depends on where you sit with compromises. One driver's desire for a firmer ride and less body roll, is another's corrupted predictability and lack of fluidity. Firmer isn't always better, road surface quality and tire grip are also involved here as well.

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      12-20-2012, 05:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wajhik View Post
BMW is raping everyone on M performance stuff, E90's sat dumped to the ground right from the factory, no need for lowering springs. THis is the new direction they are going, and they want you to buy their overpriced stuff.
I know here in the UK many have opted for the "delete sport suspension" on the BMW range, (E9* models in particular) as the ride quality is just too far off the mark to use on our poor road surfaces. Even some of our respected motor mags' suggest that action to buyers in their reviews, something like "avoid the sport suspension, if you want a decent ride quality".

I sense BMW have far bigger markets for the stock range, (even in the M-sport packages) than a few enthusiasts who want low and overly firm rides. But for those enthusiasts, give the option in the M performance range.

OK it is good marketing, but still a 'win win' situation for the customers.

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      12-20-2012, 01:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Handling may be different, but whether better for road use, that is open to debate. Depends on where you sit with compromises. One driver's desire for a firmer ride and less body roll, is another's corrupted predictability and lack of fluidity. Firmer isn't always better, road surface quality and tire grip are also involved here as well.

HighlandPete
Well said. I'm coming from an E92 M3 and although I know they're completely different cars, I'm having a hard time adjusting to the F30. The steering and overall handling just seems rubbery in comparison.
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