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      12-17-2012, 12:56 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by RollingLower420 View Post
So what is the consensus from everyone that has these brakes?

Should I get the M Performance brakes? Or save up more money for Stoptech or Brembos?

I honestly want to go cheapest route possible, hence the M performance brakes...
The M Performance brakes are made by Brembo.
Which way to go depends on what you're trying to achieve.
If you're after better/shorter distance braking, then get better tires.
If you want better brake 'feel' I think the "cheapest" route would be to go with steel brake lines.

The larger M Performance brakes are not likely to give better braking performance for a daily driver. For someone who tracks they may be worth it as the larger rotors will likely dissipate heat better resulting in less tendency for brake fade. For daily driving the stock brakes are fine, they just lack in feel.


From what others have been saying it seems the problem is not in the caliper nor rotor. The "soft" pedal has to do with the brake booster and the brake lines.
The other thing that can cause a soft pedal would be air in the lines. Maybe there is a specific technique to bleeding this brake system and that's what that one tech was referring to when he said it was a pain to install.
Air is compressible, so if there is air in the line you would push the brake pedal but the caliper won't respond as quickly or firmly as the brake booster has to compress that air as it's trying to compress the fluid.

If the brakes are bled properly and there is still a soft pedal, then another option is to try steel brakes lines, as one poster said. By their nature rubber lines can expand, so as you push the pedal and the fluid compresses the rubber lines may be expanding too much resulting in having to push the pedal harder/further to get the required pressure into the caliper, because as the line is expanding so is the volume requiring more fluid before proper pressure is applied. Steel lines don't expand, pressure is applied quickly. People who have installed steel lines always say the brake pedal feel and modulation improves.
If the system is bled properly and there are steel lines but soft pedal remains, then it's likely due to the brake booster and it's bore and flow capacity, barring a problem with the booster not building proper boost.

This is why I think it's important to find out if there is some unique or different method to bleeding this brake system. Maybe the traditional method isn't getting the job done and there is still air in the system.

Personally, I don't like the new brake system in the F30. It feels softer than my 135i with the 6 piston Brembo's. Those brakes had a nice feel for stock brakes. There was little brake pedal travel and initial bite happened quicker.
Then, modulation was better as it required more brake pedal pressure instead of more brake pedal travel to get more braking.
That's what it feels like with the F30 brakes. There is too much "dead" brake pedal travel before initial brake bit, then to get more brake force you push the pedal harder, but instead of more brake force there is more pedal travel with it. It results in feeling like the brake system is soft.
There is plenty of brake power in this system. With the better tires the F30 has shown very good and short braking distance. The problem is simply that it doesn't "feel" as strong as they are.

The other pick nit I have is that when I release the brake pedal often it will return to it's stop point with a "thunk" as it hits it's stop point. I experienced this in every F30 I test drove so it's not unique to mine.
Part of the overall complaints that the new 3 series has become "softer" is the brake system. It just doesn't feel as solid and quick as before, and the 'thunk' gives an impression of 'cheap' imo.
Softer, less feel steering, softer base and sport suspension, softer brake feel, it's no wonder a lot of people are saying the 3 series has become "softer" or "too soft".
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      12-20-2012, 02:49 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingLower420 View Post
So what is the consensus from everyone that has these brakes?

Should I get the M Performance brakes? Or save up more money for Stoptech or Brembos?

I honestly want to go cheapest route possible, hence the M performance brakes...
I've driven about 500 miles now with the M-Performance brakes and surprisingly, they are starting to "feel" better. Pedal feels less spongy, and responsiveness seems to be improved. I also did "bed" the brakes properly as recommended in various posts, which probably helped.
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      12-20-2012, 03:31 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
The M Performance brakes are made by Brembo.
Which way to go depends on what you're trying to achieve.
If you're after better/shorter distance braking, then get better tires.
If you want better brake 'feel' I think the "cheapest" route would be to go with steel brake lines.

The larger M Performance brakes are not likely to give better braking performance for a daily driver. For someone who tracks they may be worth it as the larger rotors will likely dissipate heat better resulting in less tendency for brake fade. For daily driving the stock brakes are fine, they just lack in feel.


From what others have been saying it seems the problem is not in the caliper nor rotor. The "soft" pedal has to do with the brake booster and the brake lines.
The other thing that can cause a soft pedal would be air in the lines. Maybe there is a specific technique to bleeding this brake system and that's what that one tech was referring to when he said it was a pain to install.
Air is compressible, so if there is air in the line you would push the brake pedal but the caliper won't respond as quickly or firmly as the brake booster has to compress that air as it's trying to compress the fluid.

If the brakes are bled properly and there is still a soft pedal, then another option is to try steel brakes lines, as one poster said. By their nature rubber lines can expand, so as you push the pedal and the fluid compresses the rubber lines may be expanding too much resulting in having to push the pedal harder/further to get the required pressure into the caliper, because as the line is expanding so is the volume requiring more fluid before proper pressure is applied. Steel lines don't expand, pressure is applied quickly. People who have installed steel lines always say the brake pedal feel and modulation improves.
If the system is bled properly and there are steel lines but soft pedal remains, then it's likely due to the brake booster and it's bore and flow capacity, barring a problem with the booster not building proper boost.

This is why I think it's important to find out if there is some unique or different method to bleeding this brake system. Maybe the traditional method isn't getting the job done and there is still air in the system.

Personally, I don't like the new brake system in the F30. It feels softer than my 135i with the 6 piston Brembo's. Those brakes had a nice feel for stock brakes. There was little brake pedal travel and initial bite happened quicker.
Then, modulation was better as it required more brake pedal pressure instead of more brake pedal travel to get more braking.
That's what it feels like with the F30 brakes. There is too much "dead" brake pedal travel before initial brake bit, then to get more brake force you push the pedal harder, but instead of more brake force there is more pedal travel with it. It results in feeling like the brake system is soft.
There is plenty of brake power in this system. With the better tires the F30 has shown very good and short braking distance. The problem is simply that it doesn't "feel" as strong as they are.

The other pick nit I have is that when I release the brake pedal often it will return to it's stop point with a "thunk" as it hits it's stop point. I experienced this in every F30 I test drove so it's not unique to mine.
Part of the overall complaints that the new 3 series has become "softer" is the brake system. It just doesn't feel as solid and quick as before, and the 'thunk' gives an impression of 'cheap' imo.
Softer, less feel steering, softer base and sport suspension, softer brake feel, it's no wonder a lot of people are saying the 3 series has become "softer" or "too soft".
To RPM90: This is the best description, analysis and commentary on braking I have read in this, and any of the related posts. I wish I could be as eloquent and precise in my choice of words. I agree 100%.
Any advice on steel brake lines? I assume these would have to be aftermarket? (no BMW OEM?)
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      12-20-2012, 07:58 PM   #114
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Not sure if this has been brought up before but I was curious to know if the m performance front calipers are actually any different than the m sport front calipers. Is it just paint and the rotors or are they actually different in size.

Also, would I be able to run the rear m performance calipers with oem M-Sport rear rotors?
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      12-20-2012, 09:43 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artem@ONEighty View Post
Not sure if this has been brought up before but I was curious to know if the m performance front calipers are actually any different than the m sport front calipers. Is it just paint and the rotors or are they actually different in size.

Also, would I be able to run the rear m performance calipers with oem M-Sport rear rotors?
They're identical in technical spec, unless u're talking abt 2NH for 320i & below.
All parts are interchangeable between the 2 systems, so swapping discs are fine.
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      12-20-2012, 10:16 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
The M Performance brakes are made by Brembo.
Which way to go depends on what you're trying to achieve.
If you're after better/shorter distance braking, then get better tires.
If you want better brake 'feel' I think the "cheapest" route would be to go with steel brake lines.

The larger M Performance brakes are not likely to give better braking performance for a daily driver. For someone who tracks they may be worth it as the larger rotors will likely dissipate heat better resulting in less tendency for brake fade. For daily driving the stock brakes are fine, they just lack in feel.


From what others have been saying it seems the problem is not in the caliper nor rotor. The "soft" pedal has to do with the brake booster and the brake lines.
The other thing that can cause a soft pedal would be air in the lines. Maybe there is a specific technique to bleeding this brake system and that's what that one tech was referring to when he said it was a pain to install.
Air is compressible, so if there is air in the line you would push the brake pedal but the caliper won't respond as quickly or firmly as the brake booster has to compress that air as it's trying to compress the fluid.

If the brakes are bled properly and there is still a soft pedal, then another option is to try steel brakes lines, as one poster said. By their nature rubber lines can expand, so as you push the pedal and the fluid compresses the rubber lines may be expanding too much resulting in having to push the pedal harder/further to get the required pressure into the caliper, because as the line is expanding so is the volume requiring more fluid before proper pressure is applied. Steel lines don't expand, pressure is applied quickly. People who have installed steel lines always say the brake pedal feel and modulation improves.
If the system is bled properly and there are steel lines but soft pedal remains, then it's likely due to the brake booster and it's bore and flow capacity, barring a problem with the booster not building proper boost.

This is why I think it's important to find out if there is some unique or different method to bleeding this brake system. Maybe the traditional method isn't getting the job done and there is still air in the system.

Personally, I don't like the new brake system in the F30. It feels softer than my 135i with the 6 piston Brembo's. Those brakes had a nice feel for stock brakes. There was little brake pedal travel and initial bite happened quicker.
Then, modulation was better as it required more brake pedal pressure instead of more brake pedal travel to get more braking.
That's what it feels like with the F30 brakes. There is too much "dead" brake pedal travel before initial brake bit, then to get more brake force you push the pedal harder, but instead of more brake force there is more pedal travel with it. It results in feeling like the brake system is soft.
There is plenty of brake power in this system. With the better tires the F30 has shown very good and short braking distance. The problem is simply that it doesn't "feel" as strong as they are.

The other pick nit I have is that when I release the brake pedal often it will return to it's stop point with a "thunk" as it hits it's stop point. I experienced this in every F30 I test drove so it's not unique to mine.
Part of the overall complaints that the new 3 series has become "softer" is the brake system. It just doesn't feel as solid and quick as before, and the 'thunk' gives an impression of 'cheap' imo.
Softer, less feel steering, softer base and sport suspension, softer brake feel, it's no wonder a lot of people are saying the 3 series has become "softer" or "too soft".
Well said, sir.
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      12-23-2012, 10:20 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chlemaire View Post
To RPM90: This is the best description, analysis and commentary on braking I have read in this, and any of the related posts. I wish I could be as eloquent and precise in my choice of words. I agree 100%.
Any advice on steel brake lines? I assume these would have to be aftermarket? (no BMW OEM?)
There are different makers of steel lines, and I couldn't give you one over the other. Plus, being that the F30 is still relatively new there may not be many sets available right now, but I'm sure they will come.

There is a member on here who is planning on doing steel lines with his M Perf brakes. I'd ask him as he will have direct knowledge on the subject.
Hopefully he'll also post his impressions on how it all works.

Thanks for the positive comments.
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      12-23-2012, 10:30 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artem@ONEighty View Post
Not sure if this has been brought up before but I was curious to know if the m performance front calipers are actually any different than the m sport front calipers. Is it just paint and the rotors or are they actually different in size.

Also, would I be able to run the rear m performance calipers with oem M-Sport rear rotors?
We have to be careful with the information that gets posted as answers, because not all markets get the same parts.
US market Msports that optioned M Perf brakes from the factory use blue calipers, whereas M Perf brakes ordered later have a choice of different colors.
If an Msport came with the optional M Perf from the factory, then they are the same as the different colored M Perf that can be ordered after delivery.

In the US the OEM Msport brakes are not the M Performance brakes.
OEM US Msports don't get the same diameter rotors that come with the
M Performance brake kit. The M Perf rotors are larger diameter front and rear.

US Msport 335i front calipers don't look to be the same as M Perf Brembo calipers, and the rears are clearly not the same.
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      12-23-2012, 10:37 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarence View Post
They're identical in technical spec, unless u're talking abt 2NH for 320i & below.
All parts are interchangeable between the 2 systems, so swapping discs are fine.
OEM US Msports do not get M Performance brakes.
I measured my front 335i Msport rotors and they are not the 14.5" apprx diameter that are part of the M Perf brakes.
My rotors are somewhere around 13.5".
Also, my rear rotors are smaller than the M Perf rears.
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      12-23-2012, 11:39 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
OEM US Msports do not get M Performance brakes.
I measured my front 335i Msport rotors and they are not the 14.5" apprx diameter that are part of the M Perf brakes.
My rotors are somewhere around 13.5".
Also, my rear rotors are smaller than the M Perf rears.
Isn't it that in US u cannot order 2NH (M-sport brakes) from the factory yet?
I think before we move on to anything, I should clarify, with previous info from E90fleet, the situation with M-sport brakes & standard brakes:

Standard brakes 320i EU (all lines + M-sport package, which is option 337)
F:300mm (single pot floating) R:300mm (single pot floating)
Standard brakes 328i EU (ditto)
F:330mm (ditto) R:300mm (ditto)
Standard brakes 328i US/CDN (ditto except M-sport package)
F:300mm (ditto) R:300mm (ditto)
Standard brakes 328i US/CDN (M-sport package only)
F:330mm (ditto) R:300mm (ditto)
Standard brakes 335i EU/CDN/US (ditto)
F:340mm (4-pot fixed) R:330mm (ditto)

M-sport brakes 316d-320i EU (option 2NH, only in conjunction with option 337)
F:340mm (4-pot fixed) R:345mm (2-pot fixed)
M-sport brakes 328i CDN/US (planned but not yet available)
F:340mm (ditto) R:345mm (ditto)
M-sport brakes 328i-335i EU, 335i CDN/US (ditto, planned but not available in US yet)
F:370mm (ditto) R:345mm (ditto)


Pls note that M-sport brakes (blue calipers, option 2NH) is different from M-sport package (option 337). For all markets option 2NH is only available, as an extra factory cost option, in conjuction with option 337 (M-sport package), with only some select markets (depending on importers) 2NH being standard on cars with option 337.
The 370mm+345mm version of 2NH is part-for-part interchangeable with M-performance aftermarket retrofit system. The 340mm+345mm version of 2NH being part-for-part interchangeable only on the rear pairs - the front pairs being part-for-part interchangeable with the standard front brakes on the 335i (all spec combinations ex.2NH).

Last edited by clarence; 04-15-2013 at 12:01 AM.
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      12-23-2012, 11:44 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
In the US the OEM Msport brakes are not the M Performance brakes.
OEM US Msports don't get the same diameter rotors that come with the
M Performance brake kit. The M Perf rotors are larger diameter front and rear.
The brakes are the same for all lines & packages for their respective markets & engine sizes. Cars with M-sport package (option 337) have the same brakes as standard as on other trim levels within the same engine size, only if option 2NH is ordered with option 337 then u'll get M-sport brakes. Without option 2NH the brakes are not called "M-sport brakes", regardless of whether option 337 (M-sport package) is specified, hence so far M-sport brakes does not exist for US-spec cars w/M-sport package.
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      12-23-2012, 11:58 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarence
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
OEM US Msports do not get M Performance brakes.
I measured my front 335i Msport rotors and they are not the 14.5" apprx diameter that are part of the M Perf brakes.
My rotors are somewhere around 13.5".
Also, my rear rotors are smaller than the M Perf rears.
Isn't it that in US u cannot order 2NH (M-sport brakes) from the factory yet?
I think before we move on to anything, I should clarify, with previous info from E90fleet, the situation with M-sport brakes & standard brakes:

Standard brakes 320i EU (all lines + M-sport package, which is option 337)
F:300mm (single pot floating) R:300mm (single pot floating)
Standard brakes 328i EU (ditto)
F:330mm (ditto) R:300mm (ditto)
Standard brakes 328i US/CDN (ditto)
F:300mm (ditto) R:300mm (ditto)
Standard brakes 335i EU/CDN/US (ditto)
F:340mm (4-pot fixed) R:330mm (ditto)

M-sport brakes 316d-320i EU (option 2NH, only in conjunction with option 337)
F:340mm (4-pot fixed) R:345mm (2-pot fixed)
M-sport brakes 328i-335i EU, 335i CDN/US (ditto, planned but not available in US yet)
F:370mm (ditto) R:345mm (ditto)
M-sport brakes 328i CDN/US (planned but not yet available)
F:340mm (ditto) R:345mm (ditto)

Pls note that M-sport brakes (blue calipers, option 2NH) is different from M-sport package (option 337). For all markets option 2NH is only available, as an extra factory cost option, in conjuction with option 337 (M-sport package), with only some select markets (depending on importers) 2NH being standard on cars with option 337.
The 370mm+345mm version of 2NH is part-for-part interchangeable with M-performance aftermarket retrofit system. The 340mm+345mm version of 2NH being part-for-part interchangeable only on the rear pairs - the front pairs being part-for-part interchangeable with the standard front brakes on the 335i (all spec combinations ex.2NH).
So what ur sayin here is that M-sport brakes will eventually be available in the US soon? Sweet
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      12-24-2012, 12:42 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrm396 View Post
So what ur sayin here is that M-sport brakes will eventually be available in the US soon? Sweet
It's planned but not yet available. At first it was said that it'll be available at the same time as option 337 for US mkt (i.e. 07/12 production), but it was left out of the MY13 order guide.
As of today if u want a 335i w/2NH u have to go north across the border to get it from CDN.
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      12-24-2012, 11:14 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarence View Post
The brakes are the same for all lines & packages for their respective markets & engine sizes. Cars with M-sport package (option 337) have the same brakes as standard as on other trim levels within the same engine size, only if option 2NH is ordered with option 337 then u'll get M-sport brakes. Without option 2NH the brakes are not called "M-sport brakes", regardless of whether option 337 (M-sport package) is specified, hence so far M-sport brakes does not exist for US-spec cars w/M-sport package.
Correct, in their "respective markets", that's what I was saying to keep clear on. I think we're saying the same things about the actual brakes.

In the US market, stock OEM Msport F30's do NOT come with the blue caliper M sport brakes.
US market does not have the "M Sport/blue caliper" brake option. Those are available in other markets.

In the US we have the "M Performance" brake option, that is installed after the car leaves the factory. "M Perf" brake have the same size rotors as the blue caliper "M sport" brakes, and use the same calipers.
Thus, "M Sport" brakes are the same as the
"M Performance" brakes except the M Performance brakes can be had in 3 other colors not blue, and M Perf rotors are "dimpled". I don't believe the
M Sport blue brakes get the dimpled rotor.
Per moderator southlight:
BRAKES:

In the US, M Sport Brakes are a not available as part of the M Sport Package or as a standalone option (US members can opt for the M Performance Brakes, which are the same as M Sport brakes, except for color).

In Germany, M Sport Brakes are option and the option requires either M Sport Package or a 335i with at least 18" wheels.

The M Sport Brakes feature bigger rotor sizes and fixed piston calipers both front and rear. They are Brembo 4-piston aluminum fixed calipers on the front axle and 2-piston aluminum fixed calipers on the rear axle. The brake calipers are painted in dark blue and an M logo is applied (think of the F10 M5 caliper design here) (see the first photos below from a previous spy photo) . You may not want to miss out on the M Sport brakes, as BMW will be offering as a BMW Performance part, huge 370mm drilled/slotted brake discs for the M Sport brakes (see below).


I think some confusion comes from BMW naming the blue caliper brakes
"M sport" brakes, as some people on this forum think that an Msport F30 comes standard with "M Sport" brakes, which is not the case.
Some think that an "M sport" has "M sport" brakes, which it doesn't.
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      12-25-2012, 03:15 PM   #125
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Very confused now after reading everything lol
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      12-25-2012, 03:46 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by RollingLower420 View Post
Very confused now after reading everything lol
How can we help?
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      12-25-2012, 05:41 PM   #127
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I just bought a '12 335 with the sport package and it has the 4 piston brakes up front and they are painted silver. The rears look like regular single piston brakes.
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      12-25-2012, 09:31 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastduo View Post
I just bought a '12 335 with the sport package and it has the 4 piston brakes up front and they are painted silver. The rears look like regular single piston brakes.
They're the standard 335i brakes which are fitted to all 335i's worldwide, unless option 337 & option 2NH are ordered from factory.
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      07-26-2013, 04:20 AM   #129
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Hello everyone,

Does anyone knows are there any alternative aftermarket brake pads (e.g. stoptech, hawkpads, etc...) available for the M-sport brakes 328i-335i EU, 335i CDN/US F:370mm R:345mm?

Thank you.
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      07-26-2013, 01:30 PM   #130
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Do the M performance brakes come with new "performance" pads?
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      08-30-2013, 12:57 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
YES, yes, yes! Properly bed them.

OP: You can find bedding guides all over the interwebs.
Specifically, look for Brembo's guide, it's easy to find.
Was just searching for a good bed-in procedure, and stumbled upon the Brembo .pdf... Here is the text:

Quote:
It is very important to follow proper brake bedding procedure following installation. This is necessary not only for optimum performance of the system, but also to avoid onset of judder (vibration felt through brake and steering). The discs are delivered with a thin zinc coating to prevent corrosion. Prior to beginning the bedding procedure, this plating must be removed from the braking surfaces by driving the car slowly (under 30mph) and performing very light brake applications in order to remove the plating without generating heat. With too much heat or pedal pressure, this plating can be deposited unevenly on the disc, and impregnated into the pad, further increasing the likelihood of judder development. Once a visual inspection of the braking surfaces confirms that the plating has been evenly removed, begin with the bedding procedure as specified below.
  • Drive vehicle to a remote area and perform at least 30 brake applications of 3 second duration. Use light/medium deceleration with varying starting speeds. Leave at least mile between each brake application
  • The purpose of this procedure is to gradually increase the temperature in the components without thermal shock, and to mate the brake pad and disc friction surfaces
  • After the repeated stops, drive the vehicle for several miles with little or no braking in order to adequately cool the components
  • The system is now ready for normal use

NOTE: This entire procedure must be complete before driving the vehicle as normal. It is especially important that this process is completed before any extended same-speed driving is done (i.e. freeway travel). Failure to follow these instructions greatly increases the likelihood of judder development.
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      08-31-2013, 03:01 AM   #132
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