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      12-19-2012, 11:51 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoi View Post
Yes, but as I pointed out, OP wasn't concerned with it being too expensive and not having enough money. He was okay with only 5k off if he could still bitch to media. OP just wanted a bigger bribe for his silence on the matter.
Great point. Had to go back and re-read it, and this is what I found from the OP's original post:

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The $5,000 loyalty discount plus invoice pricing was substantial. I was still taking a big hit (I budget for and do not finance vehicles) but I felt I could make it work. I did not feel that I was getting a great deal but felt that eventually I could placate my emotions by making the facts of my experience public.
I'm feeling a lot less sympathetic to the OP. In return for signing the release, he asked for 17,500 and gave them only two business days to respond. BMW might have settled for more than 7,500, but probably felt 17,500 was unreasonable.
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      12-20-2012, 04:17 PM   #90
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But there is also no proof that it wasn't a manufacturer fault. The reasonable solution is to meet somewhere in the middle, which BMW obviously tried to do, but the OP apparently wasn't ready or didn't have the available cash on-hand to jump up to a brand new car, despite the $7,500 discount.

The OP has gone silent so we may never know, but in this case if the first offer (a discount off of a new car) was unacceptable, then BMW should have offered alternatives, such as a lesser amount of cash towards a used or CPO equivalent model. This would have paid for his deductible, offset some of his inevitable premium increase in the coming years, and ensured he could get into an equivalent model without an out-of-pocket expense.
Here's the thing to remember in all of this. The losing party was the insurance company. They had to pay the claim to make their insured whole. Both THEY and BMW did their own separate investigations. Both were inconclusive. If even a hint of blame could be definitively placed on BMW following either investigation they would have denied the claim.

What BMW offered as goodwill was very generous. They had no obligation to do so. Attempting to push for compensation sufficient to bridge the gap with a brand new car was ridiculous.
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      12-20-2012, 07:01 PM   #91
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7.5K under invoice? I'd run mine into the wall just to get another one-

Seriously, your insurance payout and BMW goodwill were more than fair.

Be a man, don't be those entitlement muchies. Next time, get Replacement Cost coverage from your insurance, as others mentioned.
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      12-20-2012, 11:30 PM   #92
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Here's the thing to remember in all of this. The losing party was the insurance company. They had to pay the claim to make their insured whole. Both THEY and BMW did their own separate investigations. Both were inconclusive. If even a hint of blame could be definitively placed on BMW following either investigation they would have denied the claim.

What BMW offered as goodwill was very generous. They had no obligation to do so. Attempting to push for compensation sufficient to bridge the gap with a brand new car was ridiculous.
What if he hadn't had comprehensive insurance? It would be a bit silly to be driving a recent-model BMW without it, but let's assume that was the case.

No comprehensive coverage means no insurance payout. The car was under warranty, maintained by BMW service technicians to manufacturer recommendations, and it catches fire during normal operations and is a total loss. BMW investigates, and their investigation is inconclusive. If that were to happen, BMW either makes it right, or the driver sues BMW to try and force them to make it right. My guess is BMW makes it right to avoid the lawsuit.

In this situation, despite the insurance payout, my bet is BMW would have been willing to go further to make it right if the OP had hadn't lost his patience.
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      12-21-2012, 12:19 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
What if he hadn't had comprehensive insurance? It would be a bit silly to be driving a recent-model BMW without it, but let's assume that was the case.

No comprehensive coverage means no insurance payout. The car was under warranty, maintained by BMW service technicians to manufacturer recommendations, and it catches fire during normal operations and is a total loss. BMW investigates, and their investigation is inconclusive. If that were to happen, BMW either makes it right, or the driver sues BMW to try and force them to make it right. My guess is BMW makes it right to avoid the lawsuit.

In this situation, despite the insurance payout, my bet is BMW would have been willing to go further to make it right if the OP had hadn't lost his patience.
You keep assuming it was normal operation and random fire caused by car. If a piano fell on his car, is BMW responsible? If a thief stole it, is BMW responsible? If a raccoon shits all over his seats cause he left the moonroof open, is BMW responsible?

There is NO trend, reports, or any other indications of BMW randomly catching fire. That to me says it's not a manufacturer fault, cause BMW sells how many 3 series? Any inherent fault would have come out much earlier. Chances are he either did some mods or other actions he's not telling us (remember, were only hearing his side of the story), or its some other act of nature.
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      12-21-2012, 08:41 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoi View Post
You keep assuming it was normal operation and random fire caused by car. If a piano fell on his car, is BMW responsible? If a thief stole it, is BMW responsible? If a raccoon shits all over his seats cause he left the moonroof open, is BMW responsible?

There is NO trend, reports, or any other indications of BMW randomly catching fire. That to me says it's not a manufacturer fault, cause BMW sells how many 3 series? Any inherent fault would have come out much earlier. Chances are he either did some mods or other actions he's not telling us (remember, were only hearing his side of the story), or its some other act of nature.
All true, and there's always two sides to every story. However, all the information we have is from the OP, and he stated the car was being driven normally and had been maintained normally. He could be lying or leaving important details out, but he could just as easily be telling the truth.

Keep in mind, just because there isn't a rash of BMW vehicle fires does not mean that they might not be responsible. Engine parts and engines are built to certain specifications and tolerances, with a 1 in however many million hours chance of a catastrophic failure. With the millions of BMWs on the road, every so often one is going to experience a catastrophic failure despite being driven within normal operating limits. This particular catastrophic failure caused a fire that resulted in his car being totaled.

If this had been your car and you know you had driven and maintained the vehicle properly, wouldn't you want BMW to make it right?
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      12-21-2012, 09:53 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
All true, and there's always two sides to every story. However, all the information we have is from the OP, and he stated the car was being driven normally and had been maintained normally. He could be lying or leaving important details out, but he could just as easily be telling the truth.

Keep in mind, just because there isn't a rash of BMW vehicle fires does not mean that they might not be responsible. Engine parts and engines are built to certain specifications and tolerances, with a 1 in however many million hours chance of a catastrophic failure. With the millions of BMWs on the road, every so often one is going to experience a catastrophic failure despite being driven within normal operating limits. This particular catastrophic failure caused a fire that resulted in his car being totaled.

If this had been your car and you know you had driven and maintained the vehicle properly, wouldn't you want BMW to make it right?

In the real world, decisions in the matters of fault aren't made based on "might". It either is or isn't. Period. It definitely could have been a manufacturing defect. But we'll never know. As I said before, insurance companies do all they possibly can to hold onto their money. If there was any shred of evidence that they could definitively pin this on BMW they would have found it and denied the claim - or paid and then went after BMW.

You really need to reconsider what you're suggesting here. Do you really think it makes any sense whatsoever for a manufacturer to take the blame for something that has happened regardless of whom is at fault? This is not based on sound logic.

No one can say what happened to the OP's car. No one. Who's to say there wasn't a more minor issue that he didn't notice (or even ignored) that escalated as he continued to drive the car? It's certainly plausible that had he stopped sooner he might have avoided this whole catastrophe. But we'll never know. If he had a tire go down, but failed to stop, then suffered a catastrophic failure resulting in a horrific crash would you suggest that the tire manufacturer take the blame - just because it was their tire?

I hate to say it, but I think this sort of logic based on entitlement and the need to blame somebody is really why our society is in the shape it's in. I'm reminded of this idiocy every day when I drink coffee from a cup that warns me my coffee is hot. No shit my coffee is hot. It's coffee.

Bad things happen all the time. Sometimes it's obvious why. Sometimes it isn't. There are mechanisms in place to make things right (insurance) and it appears everything worked as it was designed to in this regard. He suffered a loss and his carrier paid the claim. Just because you've been inconvenienced doesn't mean you're automatically ENTITLED to compensation for it - regardless of what your attorney says...
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      12-21-2012, 02:05 PM   #96
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Good for you for taking a stand and highlighting a principle: accountability. There aren't many businesses out there that still think the "customer is always right."

It seems from the responses on this post that most of us would have taken the money, which is exactly what BMW wants the majority to do. They want to buy loyalty and uphold their brand, at any cost.

I have a love-hate relationship with BMW. They make great products, and they know damn well that they do and hence they do have leverage when it comes to customer relations because at the end of the day, their products will still sell, even if there are lemons out there.

It's easy for someone to say "take the money and run", but unless they have gone through so much stress/paperwork/phone calls/frustration with a BMW product, no one can say for sure how they would react under those circumstances until it happens.
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      12-21-2012, 02:14 PM   #97
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I see now we're on to conspiracy theories... If someone proved BMW liable, then you could talk about accountability. I would say offering over 10,000 in discounts when the could have offered ZERO is plenty accountable. It wasn't hush money, it was an offer of good faith.
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      12-21-2012, 02:44 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus2003 View Post
Good for you for taking a stand and highlighting a principle: accountability. There aren't many businesses out there that still think the "customer is always right."

It seems from the responses on this post that most of us would have taken the money, which is exactly what BMW wants the majority to do. They want to buy loyalty and uphold their brand, at any cost.

I have a love-hate relationship with BMW. They make great products, and they know damn well that they do and hence they do have leverage when it comes to customer relations because at the end of the day, their products will still sell, even if there are lemons out there.

It's easy for someone to say "take the money and run", but unless they have gone through so much stress/paperwork/phone calls/frustration with a BMW product, no one can say for sure how they would react under those circumstances until it happens.
You registered just to post this comment? Interesting...
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      12-21-2012, 04:42 PM   #99
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You registered just to post this comment? Interesting...
Agreed. Not to mention pretending that a slogan is a business principle is hopelessly naive.

Everyone is focusing on the insurer and BMW, but the dealership could be at fault. If the were negligent in their inspection and missed a potentially dangerous flaw because they did not follow the guidelines of a proper inspection, for example, they would be the ones expected to compensate for the loss.

As has been mentioned, however, we don't have enough information to make a judgment in this case--nor did BMW most likely, so we've devolved to people projecting their personal perceptions onto the matter at hand.
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      12-21-2012, 05:45 PM   #100
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Does anyone here believe that BMW would actually admit that due to faulty engineering/workmanship one of their cars caught on fire, assuming normal driving conditions and no third party tampering? I highly doubt it. So their internal investigation ending up as inconclusive does not mean much, however, the insurance company's assessment is another issue.

The dealer's discount is generous/fair, depending on your personal threshold of such, but regardless if BMW is at fault or not, to ask a customer to sign a release and absolve themselves from any future liability is bonkers IMHO. It's like saying to a patient: "I'll prescribe and even pay for your medication and treatment, but sign here first so that any complications you experience thereafter are your problem, and not my responsibility or that of my department/institution."
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      12-21-2012, 06:19 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus2003 View Post
Does anyone here believe that BMW would actually admit that due to faulty engineering/workmanship one of their cars caught on fire, assuming normal driving conditions and no third party tampering? I highly doubt it. So their internal investigation ending up as inconclusive does not mean much, however, the insurance company's assessment is another issue.

The dealer's discount is generous/fair, depending on your personal threshold of such, but regardless if BMW is at fault or not, to ask a customer to sign a release and absolve themselves from any future liability is bonkers IMHO. It's like saying to a patient: "I'll prescribe and even pay for your medication and treatment, but sign here first so that any complications you experience thereafter are your problem, and not my responsibility or that of my department/institution."
Pretty sure if BMW launches an investigation they'd have to hire a third party independent investigator who has to publicize any results. That's how most of these liability investigations work....

Also doctor analogy is flawed. In the case of the doctor, they are absolving any responsibility for a surgery PERFORMED AT THAT MOMENT OR LATER, WHERE THE RESULTS ARE UNKOWN.

BMW is offering a NEW CAR WITH WARRANTY, in return for NO FURTHER PRESS ABOUT A PREVIOUS RESOLVED ISSUE WITH KNOWN CONSEQUENCES. They are NOT ABSOLVING LIABILITY (two separate investigations already did that), but rather limiting option of going to the press/public. It's non-disclosure, not release of liability.

It's like a doctor saying "hey so apparently after your last tooth cleaning, you randomly developed a rash on your arm. Now I have no idea whether this rash is due to sth during the cleaning, or cause you ate something you're allergic to or got stun by some bug. But here, I'll give you $7,500 in freebies plus WARRANTY on said freebies so you don't go around blaming me for it."
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      12-21-2012, 06:52 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoi View Post
Pretty sure if BMW launches an investigation they'd have to hire a third party independent investigator who has to publicize any results. That's how most of these liability investigations work....

Also doctor analogy is flawed. In the case of the doctor, they are absolving any responsibility for a surgery PERFORMED AT THAT MOMENT OR LATER, WHERE THE RESULTS ARE UNKOWN.

BMW is offering a NEW CAR WITH WARRANTY, in return for NO FURTHER PRESS ABOUT A PREVIOUS RESOLVED ISSUE WITH KNOWN CONSEQUENCES. They are NOT ABSOLVING LIABILITY (two separate investigations already did that), but rather limiting option of going to the press/public. It's non-disclosure, not release of liability.

It's like a doctor saying "hey so apparently after your last tooth cleaning, you randomly developed a rash on your arm. Now I have no idea whether this rash is due to sth during the cleaning, or cause you ate something you're allergic to or got stun by some bug. But here, I'll give you $7,500 in freebies plus WARRANTY on said freebies so you don't go around blaming me for it."
Your argument about a third party investigation is noted, but please spare me the uppercase letters....you clearly don't know the responsibilities of an MD or a dentist (FYI both consent patients prior to any procedure for most known complications/side effects based on experience/expertise as well as what is published in the literature before anything is done).

So is it still acceptable that BMW asked to not disclose the incident (especially with inconclusive findings) in exchange for a large discount?
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      12-21-2012, 07:02 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus2003 View Post
Your argument about a third party investigation is noted, but please spare me the uppercase letters....you clearly don't know the responsibilities of an MD or a dentist (FYI both consent patients prior to any procedure for most known complications/side effects based on experience/expertise as well as what is published in the literature before anything is done).

So is it still acceptable that BMW asked to not disclose the incident (especially with inconclusive findings) in exchange for a large discount?
It is acceptable. Consider:

BMW is known to have offered a substantial discount off a new car despite an inconclusive investigation.

The offer is assumed, by the general public or press, as an admission of liability (why offer discount if you're not responsible).

Suddenly attorneys and consumers are investigating either a) BMW coverup, or b) new potentially dangerous BMW defect.

A good faith offer thus becomes an admission of guilt and massive headache for corporate.
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      12-21-2012, 07:54 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus2003 View Post
Your argument about a third party investigation is noted, but please spare me the uppercase letters....you clearly don't know the responsibilities of an MD or a dentist (FYI both consent patients prior to any procedure for most known complications/side effects based on experience/expertise as well as what is published in the literature before anything is done).

So is it still acceptable that BMW asked to not disclose the incident (especially with inconclusive findings) in exchange for a large discount?
Hey, you brought up doctors/MD (look ma no caps), and was the one comparing a scenario where a doc could perform on you without liability. Just cause that analogy blew up in your face doesn't mean you can come around and blame me for it.
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      12-21-2012, 08:26 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus2003 View Post
Your argument about a third party investigation is noted, but please spare me the uppercase letters....you clearly don't know the responsibilities of an MD or a dentist (FYI both consent patients prior to any procedure for most known complications/side effects based on experience/expertise as well as what is published in the literature before anything is done).

So is it still acceptable that BMW asked to not disclose the incident (especially with inconclusive findings) in exchange for a large discount?
3 posts and registered just to post in this thread... Markus... are you the original poster? Come on... fess up!
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      12-21-2012, 10:26 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
You really need to reconsider what you're suggesting here. Do you really think it makes any sense whatsoever for a manufacturer to take the blame for something that has happened regardless of whom is at fault? This is not based on sound logic.
Is that what I said? No. The manufacturer has a responsibility to ensure that their product does not burst into flames under normal operation, especially during the warranty period. An inconclusive finding does not absolve them of all responsibility. As it's inconclusive, it does not imply 100% responsibility, either.

Quote:
I hate to say it, but I think this sort of logic based on entitlement and the need to blame somebody is really why our society is in the shape it's in. I'm reminded of this idiocy every day when I drink coffee from a cup that warns me my coffee is hot. No shit my coffee is hot. It's coffee.
I agree with this, but it has no bearing on this particular situation. I think we'll just need to agree to disagree on this one.
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      12-22-2012, 09:19 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnerJi View Post
But there is also no proof that it wasn't a manufacturer fault. The reasonable solution is to meet somewhere in the middle, which BMW obviously tried to do, but the OP apparently wasn't ready or didn't have the available cash on-hand to jump up to a brand new car, despite the $7,500 discount.

The OP has gone silent so we may never know, but in this case if the first offer (a discount off of a new car) was unacceptable, then BMW should have offered alternatives, such as a lesser amount of cash towards a used or CPO equivalent model. This would have paid for his deductible, offset some of his inevitable premium increase in the coming years, and ensured he could get into an equivalent model without an out-of-pocket expense.
Here's the thing to remember in all of this. The losing party was the insurance company. They had to pay the claim to make their insured whole. Both THEY and BMW did their own separate investigations. Both were inconclusive. If even a hint of blame could be definitively placed on BMW following either investigation they would have denied the claim.

What BMW offered as goodwill was very generous. They had no obligation to do so. Attempting to push for compensation sufficient to bridge the gap with a brand new car was ridiculous.




Just to clarify. The insurance company, in the USA would never deny the claim in this case. They would only deny the claim if the OP intentionally set fire to the car. That's all the insurance company is looking for in their investigation.

They don't care if BMW was at fault. The insurance company rarely subrogates in cases like this since it is so hard to prove one way or the other.
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      12-22-2012, 11:04 AM   #108
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3 posts and registered just to post in this thread... Markus... are you the original poster? Come on... fess up!
gthal, actually I am not the original poster However, I felt after reading all the comments that the original poster was not getting a lot of support but rather more stink eye. It always sucks to have your car burst into flames irrespective of the circumstances.
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      12-23-2012, 03:34 AM   #109
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After reading this long story, and BMW's response and your back and fourth..is BMW"s are way over priced and are not worth shit...I have a z4 and I love it, and I take care of it, but I'm sick of the fracking repairs and the rip off ass STEALERSHIPS for service. I'm being serious...my wife has a 16 yr old toyota van, and we live in Japan and this thing is a tank, and I bought it second hand....car has just been awsome...I love my z4 but I'm so tired of the repairs cost so much money...Yes Japan is expensive but damn....BMW should had gotten you a better deal..ther fracking car caught on fire, iwas considering the purchase of a used X6, but wife was like no not but heck no, and she right ..to much money and repairs are to much, so i'm stuck with my Z4....I know what some will say that's the price of a nice car..but BMW needs to get real about the service on these
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      12-23-2012, 05:44 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by THE JEDI View Post
After reading this long story, and BMW's response and your back and fourth..is BMW"s are way over priced and are not worth shit...I have a z4 and I love it, and I take care of it, but I'm sick of the fracking repairs and the rip off ass STEALERSHIPS for service. I'm being serious...my wife has a 16 yr old toyota van, and we live in Japan and this thing is a tank, and I bought it second hand....car has just been awsome...I love my z4 but I'm so tired of the repairs cost so much money...Yes Japan is expensive but damn....BMW should had gotten you a better deal..ther fracking car caught on fire, iwas considering the purchase of a used X6, but wife was like no not but heck no, and she right ..to much money and repairs are to much, so i'm stuck with my Z4....I know what some will say that's the price of a nice car..but BMW needs to get real about the service on these
BMW isn't known for stellar reliability, I agree, but your issue and the OP's issue are not close to being comparable.
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