F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > MT Head 2 Head: BMW 335i vs ATS 3.6 vs C350
MINHS Auto Care Center
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-02-2012, 04:24 PM   #287
MotoEV
Private
United_States
0

 
MotoEV's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW Active Hybrid 3
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlanta Georgia


Posts: 87
iTrader: (0)

Times Have Changed.... Time To Change With Them

The Motor Trend review is a weak effort and represents a simple-minded view of the automotive industry

After watching the Motor Trend review and reading through the comments, I reached the following conclusion. The era of the highly focused car is ALMOST over. Most consumers who buy high performance vehicles will not race them on track day or push them to their limits. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche and others know this. This is the direction the automotive market is going and for good reason. Electronics allow for manufacturers to offer 'profiles' to sharpen steering, change throttle mapping, and suspension dampening to provide 90% of the focused car experience while improving emissions, safety, and fuel economy while making the car slightly bigger. When was the last time Cadillac built and sold a mainstream product that had to compete in all global markets and meet consumers wants and tastes?

Those who own an E46 know it is not a great space in the backseats for a second couple on a long 2 day road trip. However, the E46 seemed more focused and tighter 'out-of-the-box'. BMW now offers more variations of products for those who want that 'old school no compromise experience'. You can find it in an M series or through sport options from BMW.

However, this hardcore buyer may only represent 10% of the buying public. BMW knows what they are doing and are not alone in this trend. Porsche has also made the new 911 S more comfortable and a little less sharp but through performance options can build a 911 S to meet 90-95% of what a hardcore owner may want.

Yes, the doors are lighter on all new BMW products (3 series through 7 series) and harder plastics are in lower touch points in the interior however, that is offset by better fuel economy, and a sticker price lower than the costs of inflation and the diminished value of our US currency.

Finally, the 3 series is still built outside the United States and the price reflects foreign manufacture, shipping, health costs, etc. There has been talk of the 3 series being built domestically to reduce costs and add more content (ala VW in Chatanooga TN). I'll pay the premium for German design and manufacture as well as the investments in Efficient Dynamics.

Last edited by MotoEV; 12-02-2012 at 04:30 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:00 PM   #288
F30AM
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
65

 
F30AM's Avatar
 
Drives: F30 330d M Sport sDrive
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: London, UK


Posts: 4,174
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F30AM View Post
Do USA spec F30s have softer suspensions than EURO Spec ones, I wonder?
Our F30s feel just perfect and we do like a planted feel in this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
To what are you comparing it to?
I'll rephrase: Does a USA F30, say a 328i, have a softer suspension set-up than a UK/EURO F30 328i?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
no
Thanks.
__________________
Present: Superman 330d sDrive M Sport + Toys (Auto Car: 0-60 in 5.5s, 0-100 in 14.2s, 30-70 in 5.1s)
Ordered: Red Tornado Golf 7R 5 Dr, DSG + Toys (Top Gear: 0-60 in 4.5s, 0-100 in 11.5s, 30-70 in 4.0s)

Last edited by F30AM; 12-02-2012 at 05:20 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 02:47 PM   #289
amdmaxx
My gift Registry: M2
United_States
21

 
amdmaxx's Avatar
 
Drives: Future Mowner of Monster
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA


Posts: 1,354
iTrader: (0)

Winding Road also pronouncing ATS 3.6 a winner over BMW.. BMW got some catching up to it!

http://www.windingroad.com/articles/...ource=email-55
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 03:56 PM   #290
tuned2ride
First Lieutenant
9

 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hell


Posts: 344
iTrader: (0)

ATS 3.6 or 2.0 is dead on birth.

Slow initial sales + pricey +crampy in the rear is a recipe for ... failure.

GM should have learned more from the Regal GS, really.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 04:55 PM   #291
DerekS
Captain
Canada
12

 
DerekS's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i M Sport GS
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver,B.C.


Posts: 912
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by amdmaxx View Post
Winding Road also pronouncing ATS 3.6 a winner over BMW.. BMW got some catching up to it!
I very much doubt that BMW Ag will take seriously the views of a few American automotive journalists who praise the virtues of the ATS. In the meantime, the sluggish sales of this strange looking car are not likely to offer a significant challenge to BMW in the North American market nor in the European one.

Apart from the stylistic handicap faced by the ATS, there is a huge cultural one presented by GM dealers; they haven't a clue as to what makes a BMW/Mercedes/Audi owner tick.
__________________
2013-335i M Sport, 8 spd, Glacier silver, adaptive M suspension, variable sport steering, 18" style 400 staggered wheels/tires, M Sport brakes,
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 05:42 PM   #292
Red Bread
Brigadier General
United_States
45

 
Drives: My wife's car
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,304
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
Apart from the stylistic handicap faced by the ATS, there is a huge cultural one presented by GM dealers; they haven't a clue as to what makes a BMW/Mercedes/Audi owner tick.
I disagree on the styling, as I actually prefer the ATS to the F30, but to be fair, neither does much for me. But the dealer comment is spot on with where the real issue lies. The only customer ticks that they truly understand are the ones with pacemakers.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 06:22 PM   #293
Elk
Major
12

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: *


Posts: 1,275
iTrader: (0)

Have any of you actually driven a Cadillac into a dealership for service? So many of the anti-Cadillac posts appear to be based upon personal bias rather than experience.

I cannot speak to Cadillac dealers, but as a many year Corvette owner I have been treated at least as well at Chevy dealerships than at BMW. Moreover, the dedicated C5 and C6 Corvette technicians know a 'Vette better than the BMW techs know their cars in my experience. They are also obviously pleased to get a chance to work on the car and are extremely mod friendly.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 06:49 PM   #294
CirrusSR22
Captain
14

 
Drives: E36 318ti, R50 MINI
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Minnesota


Posts: 950
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuned2ride View Post

GM should have learned more from the Regal GS, really.
What does that even mean? If learning from the forgettable Regal means building a completely new, and far superior car, that's exactly what they did. Chassis, engine and transmission are all completely different.
__________________
If you want things done right, you gotta do it yourself.

Last edited by CirrusSR22; 12-26-2012 at 07:18 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 07:23 PM   #295
buildbright
Captain
9

 
buildbright's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i BMW F30 Sedan
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Tampa, FL


Posts: 907
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Have any of you actually driven a Cadillac into a dealership for service? So many of the anti-Cadillac posts appear to be based upon personal bias rather than experience.

I cannot speak to Cadillac dealers, but as a many year Corvette owner I have been treated at least as well at Chevy dealerships than at BMW. Moreover, the dedicated C5 and C6 Corvette technicians know a 'Vette better than the BMW techs know their cars in my experience. They are also obviously pleased to get a chance to work on the car and are extremely mod friendly.
They know how to hot rod your car when you bring it in for service.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 07:59 PM   #296
adc
Brigadier General
53

 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC


Posts: 4,145
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CirrusSR22 View Post
What does that even mean? If learning from the forgettable Regal means building a completely new, and far superior car, that's exactly what they did. Chassis, engine and transmission are all completely different.
I think he's talking about the current Regal GS, a sporty and very nice looking sedan based on the European Opel Insignia. A good car, but plagued by an indifferent audience. He's right, Buick and Cadillac have a huge uphill battle against their traditional brand values and customer base with these new sporty cars.
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 08:16 PM   #297
CirrusSR22
Captain
14

 
Drives: E36 318ti, R50 MINI
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Minnesota


Posts: 950
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I think he's talking about the current Regal GS, a sporty and very nice looking sedan based on the European Opel Insignia. A good car, but plagued by an indifferent audience. He's right, Buick and Cadillac have a huge uphill battle against their traditional brand values and customer base with these new sporty cars.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about too. I do like the looks of the current Insignia/Regal, but the ATS is a far better, totally new car.
__________________
If you want things done right, you gotta do it yourself.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 08:56 PM   #298
Elk
Major
12

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: *


Posts: 1,275
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
They know how to hot rod your car when you bring it in for service.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 10:15 PM   #299
buildbright
Captain
9

 
buildbright's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i BMW F30 Sedan
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Tampa, FL


Posts: 907
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
The mechanics beat on your car. Joyride.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 10:16 PM   #300
Elk
Major
12

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: *


Posts: 1,275
iTrader: (0)

Nonsense.
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2012, 11:13 PM   #301
pkimM3r
Banned
92

 
pkimM3r's Avatar
 
Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles


Posts: 7,321
iTrader: (0)

The vette is pretty much top of the line. Try taking in some any ole chevy - i cant recall any of there other models right now without thinking about it.
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2012, 09:41 AM   #302
Elk
Major
12

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: *


Posts: 1,275
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
The vette is pretty much top of the line.
Yes, for Chevy.

Cadillac has its own dedicated dealerships servicing these cars of higher than average price. I would expect they treat their customers pretty well.

Given my experiences with "base" Chevy dealerships with the 'Vette has been as good as BMW I anticipate Cadillac dealers treat their customers well. A number of my Corvette owning friends own a CTS-V as their daily driver/winter car. None have complained of bad dealer service.

As with bad BMW dealer experiences (there are many posted on this board) I am certain their are bad Cadillac dealers however.
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2012, 02:01 PM   #303
mso4
Private First Class
1

 
Drives: '07 335i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: So Cal


Posts: 109
iTrader: (0)

I remember when the CTS-V beat the M5, but that M5 was dated. Never thought I see a brand new BMW being beat by a Cadillac on driving dynamics. Wait, actually the 535 M Sport got spank by the new Lexus GS 350 F Sport too! I had always love BMW for their sharp handling and road feel. I guess it's time for BMW take down the slogan the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. Very sad in deed.
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2012, 02:10 PM   #304
gthal
Brigadier General
Canada
66

 
gthal's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Canada


Posts: 3,350
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 M3  [3.37]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mso4 View Post
I remember when the CTS-V beat the M5, but that M5 was dated. Never thought I see a brand new BMW being beat by a Cadillac on driving dynamics. Wait, actually the 535 M Sport got spank by the new Lexus GS 350 F Sport too! I had always love BMW for their sharp handling and road feel. I guess it's time for BMW take down the slogan the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. Very sad in deed.
Everyone else is catching up or has caught up. This is actually quite good because the closer competition is, the better everyone will get. Good for all.

The other issue is BMW has tended to go just a little softer as of late and some others are going less soft to compete with BMW. Lexus, for example, are building their next gen IS350 after the E9X BMW because their engineers say BMW softened the current generation. Now, that is somewhat of a marketing scheme IMO and you can option the car with sportier suspensions, etc but it is an ongoing trend... along with smaller displacement engines, more luxury, etc. Not bad... just different. Personally, I like the direction BMW is going. Softer, more luxurious cars that can be optioned with sport suspensions, etc for those who desire that. Don't forget, a LARGE portion of the market want soft and quiet. Only a small, unrepresentative group of enthusiasts (like many here) and car magazine editors want performance cars to be more raw and visceral. BMW is simply building cars that the vast majority of its buyers want.
__________________
2015 M4 | Austin Yellow | Black Full Merino Leather | DCT
2014 Corvette Stingray | Z51 | Torch Red | 7MT - Sold
2012 MB C63 Coupe | Performance package | Obsidian Black - Sold
2011 E92 M3 | Jerez Black | Fox Red | DCT | Competition Package - Sold

Last edited by gthal; 12-27-2012 at 02:28 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2012, 03:35 PM   #305
Elk
Major
12

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: *


Posts: 1,275
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
. . . BMW has tended to go just a little softer as of late . . .
I just brought my sportline F30 in for service (routine) and have a new X5 as a loaner. Interestingly, the X5 has much firmer steering feel than the F30.
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2012, 10:31 PM   #306
MNBart
Private
1

 
Drives: F30 335ix Sport Line - Alpine
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Minneapolis


Posts: 72
iTrader: (0)

So... anyone pick up the newest issue of Motor Trend? They compared the Cadillac, Merc, and 335 and ranked the 335 last out of the three based on interior quality even though it had the best performance metrics.

I didn't shop the other 2 cars so I can't really comment but come on...
Appreciate 0
      12-27-2012, 10:57 PM   #307
batislav
Private First Class
3

 
Drives: 2012 335i Sportline
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Ohio


Posts: 193
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBart View Post
So... anyone pick up the newest issue of Motor Trend? They compared the Cadillac, Merc, and 335 and ranked the 335 last out of the three based on interior quality even though it had the best performance metrics.

I didn't shop the other 2 cars so I can't really comment but come on...
Tons of reviews on this subject are contradictory. Seems like personal preference is the only reliable predictor. Not necessarily a bad thing; most consumers should be able to pick out a car in the segment and feel confident it holds up well to the competition.
Appreciate 0
      12-28-2012, 12:58 AM   #308
DarkTrigger
Professional
United_States
13

 
DarkTrigger's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i MPPK
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: LB, SoCal


Posts: 973
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by batislav View Post
Tons of reviews on this subject are contradictory. Seems like personal preference is the only reliable predictor. Not necessarily a bad thing; most consumers should be able to pick out a car in the segment and feel confident it holds up well to the competition.
It seems a lot of the reviews are becoming personal preference now. The 335i beat out the ats and c350 in performance numbers both in the figure 8 and drag. However, it got dead last because of creeks and rattles and it's 6k price premium in the latest motortrend article. Although, I think they breezed over the practicality part where the 335i trunk is 17cuft while the caddy is 10cuft and had the only back seat that comfortably sat a 6' person.

You must understand though that the article started with, "I think the problem here is that we've got three second-place cars." Only way to break the tie are with minor things. The caddy shamelessly copied the 3 series anyways, and the 3 series hasn't really changed that much in driving dynamics regardless of what people say.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
3 series f30, 3 series f30 forum, 3 series f30 review, 3 series forum, 3-series forum, 335i vs ats, bmw 3 series f30, bmw 3 series forum, bmw 3-series f30, bmw 3-series forum, bmw f30, bmw f30 3 series, bmw f30 3 series review, bmw f30 3 series reviews, bmw f30 3-series, bmw f30 forum, bmw f30 review, f30 3 series, f30 3 series forum, f30 3 series review, f30 3 series vs ats, f30 3-series, f30 forum, f30 forums, f30 review, f30 reviews, f30 vs ats

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:08 PM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST