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      12-31-2012, 11:31 AM   #67
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What happens when you take a hard corner in the snow with xDrive without applying gas or brake?
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      12-31-2012, 11:41 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
What happens when you take a hard corner in the snow with xDrive without applying gas or brake?
Same thing that will happen in a RWD with snow, you will be in a ditch somewhere
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      12-31-2012, 11:44 AM   #69
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Same thing that will happen in a RWD with snow, you will be in a ditch somewhere
+1... exactly correct. Jam the brakes on ice in either xDrive or RWD and you end up in a tree. Take a corner too fast in either and, as x-men says, you end up in a ditch.
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      12-31-2012, 12:06 PM   #70
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Ok I'll try it later and see if anything activates (ABS,DTC,DSC) when not applying gas or brake around a slippery corner.
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      12-31-2012, 12:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
Ok I'll try it later and see if anything activates (ABS,DTC,DSC) when not applying gas or brake around a slippery corner.
These things may activate but, if they do, they would on a RWD car too. RWD also has ABS, DTC and DSC but on a RWD car it doesn't impact where the power is directed. RWD has DSC intervention too where the car can cut power or apply brakes to correct slides. All modern cars have this. AWD versions take it one step further to redirect power to maximize acceleration.

So, take a corner without gas or brake. If DSC activates it proves nothing as it would in the same circumstance on a RWD car too.

You really still don't believe all of us (including some with xDrive) who have said the same thing over and over again? I admire your dedication to your cause
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      12-31-2012, 12:49 PM   #72
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I'm not trying to prove anything. I just wanted to see if these safety features activated without gas or brake application.

I already know which is best so no need to prove anything
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      12-31-2012, 12:53 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
I'm not trying to prove anything. I just wanted to see if these safety features activated without gas or brake application.

I already know which is best so no need to prove anything
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      12-31-2012, 12:55 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
What happens when you take a hard corner in the snow with xDrive without applying gas or brake?
Same thing that will happen in a RWD with snow, you will be in a ditch somewhere
Lol, good one.

Ppl really think xDrive will save ur ass from stupidity in the snow...that's why I stay away from people with AWD when it's snowing.
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      12-31-2012, 01:07 PM   #75
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i've had rwd e60 and rwd e90, currently driving awd f30.
IMO, its not the speed or acceleration that provide most of driving pleasure. I used to love the level of control over vehichle, road feel and predictability that even base BMWs used to provide. Not a huge fan of my F30.
AWD certainly feels different. Some might enjoy the increased "grip", but you loose the RWD sensation. You can feel the power driven to the front axle trying to interfere with the steering. Front of the car jumps up when you start moving. You certainly feel increased height in turns, even during normal driving, although the new super soft base suspension is partially to blame for that. Car is a bit less nimble than RWD F30s i have driven. It's still a great car, with descent handling, just a bit less than the RWD version IMO.
Now, to be fair, i have driven an e90 xdrive loaner, and it had more of a RWD feel than F30 xdrive. So maybe it's an F30 issue.
The reason I got the xdrive is the 2010 christmas snow storm in NYC, we got something like 20 inches of heavy wet snow in one day. My RWD e90 with stock all seasons was getting hopelessly stuck everywhere. I grew up in Russia, so i am somewhat used to driving in the snow with a RWD Lada, but e90 being so much lower and wide tires, it was set up to fail.
Have not had any snow yet this year, curious to see how xdrive will perform if we get any. However considering all of the above, the next vehicle will be rwd, and will just stay in the garage on those few snow days.
But if i lived in a region where it snows a lot, i would learn to live with AWD.
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      12-31-2012, 01:19 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
BMW has been doing AWD since 1982, but your right it's not there thing lol.

One of the performance advantages of AWD is launching. AWD is what let me get awesome 60 foot/1/4 mile times running all-season tires with my Evo VIII. While the guy next to me needed super sticky performance tires in his RWD car. It was nice being able to drive to the track and back home with no tire modifications.
I didn't say BMW didn't do AWD, just when I think of BMW and the Ultimate Driving Machine I think RWD. When I think Audi or Subaru I think AWD.

I agree there are advantages of AWD, I never argued against the benefits. However I notice you keep talking about your Evo and are relating its performance to the BMW Xi drive. It very well may be same, however as I said earlier, I've never seen an documented proof (reviews, BMW marketing, etc) that a BMW Xi outperforms its RWD counterparts in normal conditions. If that was the case, why wouldn't BMW offer an M car with AWD?
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      12-31-2012, 01:33 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
Lol, good one.

Ppl really think xDrive will save ur ass from stupidity in the snow...that's why I stay away from people with AWD when it's snowing.
Its not just stupid drivers with x-drive, its stupid drivers with RWD and snow tires as well. I-drive, snow tires, stability system, ABS are all useless when put in the hands of a stupid drivers. In the end, none of these systems can over come the laws of physics.

Where the coefficient of friction=

Ff = μ N

Ff = frictional force (N, lb)

μ = static (μs) or kinetic (μk) frictional coefficient

N = normal force (N, lb)

As the coefficient of friction approach zero as with ice, μ(ice)= 0.05, the frictional force approach zero as well.
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      12-31-2012, 02:58 PM   #78
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I didn't say BMW didn't do AWD, just when I think of BMW and the Ultimate Driving Machine I think RWD. When I think Audi or Subaru I think AWD.

I agree there are advantages of AWD, I never argued against the benefits. However I notice you keep talking about your Evo and are relating its performance to the BMW Xi drive. It very well may be same, however as I said earlier, I've never seen an documented proof (reviews, BMW marketing, etc) that a BMW Xi outperforms its RWD counterparts in normal conditions. If that was the case, why wouldn't BMW offer an M car with AWD?
There was a rumor BMW would start offering the M5 in xDrive, we'll see.
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      12-31-2012, 08:33 PM   #79
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Well just had the privilege of driving behind a newer 328i in 0.5-1in of snow and yyeeaahh hope that guy gets home safe.
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      12-31-2012, 10:05 PM   #80
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Well just had the privilege of driving behind a newer 328i in 0.5-1in of snow and yyeeaahh hope that guy gets home safe.
That's what happens when you don't put good winter tires on and have a RWD car... bad, very bad...
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      12-31-2012, 10:12 PM   #81
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He probably had near bald all-seasons.
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      01-01-2013, 01:46 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by shicobico View Post
I personally paid extra for the xDrive, knowing that I was buying a compromise.


My opinion has never been that xDrive is 'a better performing car', but only that xDrive+all seasons performs better than RWD+Snow in snow/wet/slippery conditions. It will get you out of corners quicker in wet conditions. It will accelerate faster off the line in dry conditions, and if it does not, it sure as heck feels like it. It will be more balanced, and significantly decrease the incidences of the car fishtailing or loosing traction in snow/ice conditions. It will get you up a slippery/snowy hill without breaking a sweat.


In every other imaginable situation, it's a compromise. Compromise to ride height, weight, weight distribution, sport suspension, gas mileage, ...


Just my opinion and observations from personal experiences. And yes, I personally agree these threads are silly, but they make for good reads. I'm entertained.
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xDrive vs RWD - I now realize and see the difference more clearly. I use to have an e90 335xi and now I have an f30 335i. Both had/have snow tires, and I've finally had big enough dumps to compare.

After a week of off an on snow, and snow up to or past the center caps of my wheels in a single dump, I have to say this is what I miss form the XI/xDrive:
  1. Pretty well ( or the feeling of ) 100% certainty of not getting stuck or having to worry about losing momentum and getting stuck
  2. Not worrying about turtling or having the car sit on the snow such that the rears get no traction
  3. Not slowing down to a crawl ( less than walking speed ) while traction control kicks in for constantly for 15mins as I travel over unplowed roads
  4. Not have the ENTIRE wheel well gap filled with snow which, over night freezes into solid blocks of ice, impeding the steering. With the extra 10mm on the XI, it would more easily cake off. This one was a surprise to me, and I realized this would be very handy/nice to have that 10mm extra clearence. 10mm would definitely make a difference. I actually had to take my car to a spray booth to specifically target blasting/melting/clearing this area. I could hear the scraping on every turn or bump otherwise. All those guys in CA or southern US who have virtually zero wheel gap and push the limits of tire width would not survive long in any real snow conditions. Which is fine for them, since they won't need to. I use to envy that look ( to an extent ) but now I know it can't be for me, or my geography. Its a fish out of water.

Now granted, sometimes the RWD and XI would behave similarly - for example if the entire section of road was equally slippery due to black ice or mash potato snow. But with the xi/xDrive, I'd probably feel more confident in these conditions. RWD in snow = I can get by. XI/xDrive in snow = unstoppable.

BTW, I don't regret my RWD. The point of my post is to inform others, so they make an informed decision that they can live with. Whether it is driving feel or some number/measurable specification, know what you want and what you are gaining and giving up.

After that..... ENJOY IT
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Great posts.

Intrinsically there are benefits and disadvantages to both, and how much you end up feeling those characteristics are an advantage or disadvantage depends on lot, IMHO, on your circumstances (e.g. where you live, your driving conditions), your needs and the other cars you may or may not have.

When I bought my 335i, I wanted a car with the sportiest handling possible. I've lived with it 3 winters in a climate similar to that of Toronto. It did fine, but the x-drive variant I had for 2 weeks one winter (E92, with winter tires), was more confidence inspiring in winter, no question about it.

Our 335i RWD has served us well as the "go-to car" when the M stays in the garage due to snow++. (the M wears its snows in winter too, but we don't want to risk damaging the lower-sitting car. )

We've also now driven an F30 with x-drive with the M adaptive suspension and came away very impressed (although some of that may be due to the improved 6MT short shifter, lol). I think this suspension option available for the first time on an x-drive model helps, even if it doesn't lower the ride height. And like another poster said, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the stock x-drive ride. If we were to replace the E92 with an F30/F32, that's how we've go, since we now have another RWD in the garage.

Happy holidays all, and may you have lots of opportunity to get out and drive this week!
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      01-01-2013, 02:26 PM   #83
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Good so far

Just picked up my new 2013 328i xDrive yesterday. Of course it started snowing again here in Ohio, right before I got to the dealership, so the beautiful black car is now soiled..

However, after 1.5-2" of sloppy wet snow came down with a totally sloppy mess on the highways, the car (and Conti all-season tires) seemed to do pretty well. Always felt in control even at 40-50 mph highway speeds right in the middle of the snowfall. Did well on all surfaces: wet, deeper snow, slush, and even in areas where there was ice underneath. Very balanced and level.

Totally impressed so far. We'll see as winter plays out.
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      01-01-2013, 02:38 PM   #84
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Oh I just remembered some guys on here said the xDrive only helps when gas is applied, that's false.

xDrive relies on the ABS and DSC to transfer up to 100% power to the front or rear axle. The gas has nothing to do with this process.
You tell yourself it transfers power if you don`t push the gas pedal there is no power to transfer.
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      01-01-2013, 07:10 PM   #85
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I've got new Blizzacks on my F30 and it does quite well for a RWD car in the snow. I think it's a blend of decent tires and an experienced driver that results in favorable feedback for RWD car in the snow regardless of the brand of car.
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      01-03-2013, 02:49 PM   #86
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You guys are missing the point enTIREly, IMO.

Sure, you can separate discrete road conditions to find which car component contributes to traction, but the bottom line is twofold, again IMO and I've driven a number of 2000+ RWD 3s including and F30, in addition to my F30 335 DHP xDrive:

1. The F30 xDrive delivers 99% of what older RWDs did in terms of feel and steer.
2. The F30 xDrive kicks the living shit out of RWD in actual, real-time slippery conditions regardless of what tires you're switching back-and-forth all year round on your RWD.

I find it very hard to believe people who are putting the F30 xDrive and F30 RWD to head-to-head tests in all conditions think the RWD is the better performer in all conditions.
My E90 RWD was good on this road that I do daily. But with my F30 X drive I can be unreasonable and survive. I agree with you.
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      01-04-2013, 04:31 PM   #87
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Yeah I got to test it out also during this storm. I was really impressed how the car handled especially since it has Pirelli all-season tires on.

Was passing practically everyone on the road and freeways.
I have to agree. My last two BMWs (e90s) were RWD. This year I got the 2013 F30 xDrive. What a difference in the snow last week! Like another contributor noted, the control and traction were outstanding in the slippery conditions with Pirelli all-seasons that came with car.

And the best part? Leasing the xDrive is actually cheaper than RWD, at least up here in Toronto. I originally ordered the RWD but the salesperson asked me if I would take the same car but in xDrive for same monthly payment. I said sure. It actually turned out to be less in the end. Why? The residual is significantly higher on the xDrive. I believe 55% vs 48% (i may not have the exact #s) on a 4 year lease.

And just to be clear, the extra $2k for xDrive was tacked on to the invoice but the monthly payment was $25/month less than the exact same equipped RWD 328i.
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      01-04-2013, 04:39 PM   #88
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And the best part? Leasing the xDrive is actually cheaper than RWD, at least up here in Toronto.
A lot of the times, thats the case with leasing or buying. If you find a AWD on the lot, its usually cheaper or about the same price as ordering a RWD up here in the Northeast US.
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