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      01-02-2013, 10:49 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
All well and good, but I really do not think the fog lights cause a relevant decrease in airflow/cooling.
Do you have anything to back up your beliefs or are you just guessing?
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      01-02-2013, 11:02 PM   #24
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I'm guessing this is only for the N55 Engine?
Been searching the N20 Radiators, nothing came up except for the main central cooling.

Anyways, Interesting find.
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      01-02-2013, 11:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by David328M-Sport View Post
Hmmm. So why do the ultra hot middle eastern countries get fogs with their F30 M-Sport?
Oh I dunno, maybe because only say 10-20 335i M-sports per year get ordered to the middle east?

BMW lately sells about 400,000 3 series a year (260,000 are sedans) with 100,000 of those going to the U.S......(which comes to roughly 65,000 sedans).

Someone posted a while back that only about 1% of all 3 series in the U.S. are ordered with the M-sport package. So that's about 650 sedans a year in the U.S. getting this package a year, and probably closer to 1000 a year once all the F3x models come out. Over a 5 year run you're maybe gonna sell 5000 total M-sports in the U.S.

I'm a finance/accounting guy, and I can tell you that companies are much more apt to make one off changes for one large market like the U.S. as opposed to tiny ones like the middle east that might sell a whopping 100 M-sport cars over the next 5 years. Configuration changes for limited production runs like middle east 335i M-sports aren't worth the cost/benefit.








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Originally Posted by David328M-Sport View Post
And is it ok for Australia to get less than 'perfect' F30 M-Sports compared to USA, because that's what it seems to be, according to your post.

What, BMW don't have enough engineering brain power to include fogs for USA cars, despite the weather????? No, I think that your cars being the cheapest on the planet come with some compromises. Not at all about hot climates & 'tweaks'. More about $$$ & 'tweaks'.
See above.
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      01-02-2013, 11:29 PM   #26
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Do you have anything to back up your beliefs or are you just guessing?
Educated guess/experience.

I have been designing/developing product from cars to toys and electronics for quite a few years now. It's penny pinching and marketing at play here, not so much an engineering/durability issue.

Am I 100% sure I am right, nope.

But I like my odds
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      01-02-2013, 11:50 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
Educated guess/experience.

I have been designing/developing product from cars to toys and electronics for quite a few years now. It's penny pinching and marketing at play here, not so much an engineering/durability issue.

Am I 100% sure I am right, nope.

But I like my odds
I tend to agree. I suspect they will try and pull cost out every way they can from every car they deliver to the US, probably the lowest margin market they operate in.
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      01-02-2013, 11:55 PM   #28
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I tend to agree. I suspect they will try and pull cost out every way they can from every car they deliver to the US, probably the lowest margin market they operate in.
Yep. When questioned on it, what do you think they say-the truth? They spin it into a positive-that is the job of marketing.
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      01-03-2013, 04:12 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Teemo Panda View Post
I'm guessing this is only for the N55 Engine?
Been searching the N20 Radiators, nothing came up except for the main central cooling.

Anyways, Interesting find.
There's an additional radiator for the 328i if it's either hot climate version or u have a factory fitted tow hitch. In US the additional rad is also fitted to M-sport ot Sport line cars or with "high speed sychronisation".

Last edited by clarence; 01-03-2013 at 04:32 AM.
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      01-03-2013, 04:30 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by verbs View Post
I'm a finance/accounting guy, and I can tell you that companies are much more apt to make one off changes for one large market like the U.S. as opposed to tiny ones like the middle east that might sell a whopping 100 M-sport cars over the next 5 years. Configuration changes for limited production runs like middle east 335i M-sports aren't worth the cost/benefit.
We're now in the 21st century & BMW's production lines are flexible enough to custom build every car on the line. In fact it's their aim to produce on demand for 100% of production.
They can & will make changes for very small runs of cars for individual markets, esp if it only involves the inclusion or exclusion of existing available features. For the case of US-spec M-sport the only new part needed is a mold for the no-fogs plastic grill. In the long run the mold pays for itself as they've reduced the cost by not fitting 2 fogs+bulbs, less wiring and a simpler light switch, not to mention less labour hours.
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      01-03-2013, 09:39 AM   #31
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So, I'm guessing not one person in this thread ever has/ever will drive their car on track. People who don't understand just don't understand. You'll all correct. BMW is a cheap piece of shit company that likes to cut corners and screw over their customers every chance they get. What a bunch of douches you all are for letting them do that to you. I think you should all let your voices be heard and trade your POS BMWs in for some killer Kia's that come standard with fog lights. That'll show them!
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      01-03-2013, 10:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
So, I'm guessing not one person in this thread ever has/ever will drive their car on track. People who don't understand just don't understand. You'll all correct. BMW is a cheap piece of shit company that likes to cut corners and screw over their customers every chance they get. What a bunch of douches you all are for letting them do that to you. I think you should all let your voices be heard and trade your POS BMWs in for some killer Kia's that come standard with fog lights. That'll show them!
You must be having a bad day. 99% of US BMW drivers don't track their cars. 1. because they are just not into that hobby, 2. because they have no tracks available. And I'm not talking POS drag strip or an oval course. There are actually more BMWs being tracked in Europe where real tracks are abundant and cheap.

Show me a fucking race track near Philly, there are none!!!!
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      01-03-2013, 10:24 AM   #33
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So, I'm guessing not one person in this thread ever has/ever will drive their car on track. People who don't understand just don't understand. You'll all correct. BMW is a cheap piece of shit company that likes to cut corners and screw over their customers every chance they get. What a bunch of douches you all are for letting them do that to you. I think you should all let your voices be heard and trade your POS BMWs in for some killer Kia's that come standard with fog lights. That'll show them!
Useless post. Someone piss in your cornflakes?
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      01-03-2013, 10:36 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by clarence View Post
We're now in the 21st century & BMW's production lines are flexible enough to custom build every car on the line. In fact it's their aim to produce on demand for 100% of production.
They can & will make changes for very small runs of cars for individual markets, esp if it only involves the inclusion or exclusion of existing available features. For the case of US-spec M-sport the only new part needed is a mold for the no-fogs plastic grill. In the long run the mold pays for itself as they've reduced the cost by not fitting 2 fogs+bulbs, less wiring and a simpler light switch, not to mention less labour hours.
100% correct. A modification made on a modern volume production line can be made instantly, and more importantly (as stated) on an individual car. The cost of adding an additional radiator is almost non-existent over the course of the car's production run, unlike other, far more complex components.

If the M Sport cars in the US market do in fact have additional cooling, it's a Legal/Marketing decision based the Market itself. The US is a far more litigious country than say the UK or the Middle East, therefore "overheating" claims and their resulting warranty and legal payouts could be a potential financial disaster for the company, as opposed to the nominal investment of additional cooling. Think "Class Action", and it all begins to make sense.

It's unfortunately a sad commentary on modern Marketing and manufacturing that I've seen countless times over the past 20 years in the business...
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      01-03-2013, 11:08 AM   #35
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You must be having a bad day. 99% of US BMW drivers don't track their cars. 1. because they are just not into that hobby, 2. because they have no tracks available. And I'm not talking POS drag strip or an oval course. There are actually more BMWs being tracked in Europe where real tracks are abundant and cheap.

Show me a fucking race track near Philly, there are none!!!!
Nope. I'm having a great day.

There's a track within an hour of Philly - New Jersey Motorsports Park. Look it up.

Then of course there's Summit Point, Watkins Glen, Pocono, VIR, etc. that are a bit further, but well worth the drive.

So, you're one of the 1%. Therefore you have no point of reference or understanding about just how important cooling is.

The BMWCCA is one of the largest enthusiast automotive clubs in the world (if not THE largest). Imagine the other side of the coin if BMW didn't take this into consideration. Not having fog lights is a small price to pay for not burning down cars on track. These motors run very, very high oil temperatures. It's not a game.

Even if only 1% actually do track their cars, don't you think it would be a bit ridiculous if BMW just ignored that fact and delivered cars that weren't able to handle it? Sure, they're not P-cars or F-cars, but they're still a well respected, performance-oriented brand. You just don't deliver a product that "looks" like it will deliver, but ultimately doesn't.

By the way, I'm not making this up. It's straight from the proverbial horse's mouth. I'm not guessing, speculating or theorizing. Hate all you want, I really don't care. I just think it's ridiculous how many folks on here resort to conspiracy theories to explain away things they don't understand. And it's even MORE ridiculous the same damn crap is brought up over and over again when it's been played out a million times before. The OP started a thread about the fact that he discovered the M Sport has auxiliary cooling. It's degraded into a bitchfest about BMW cheapening their products and hiding that fact behind bullshit marketing.
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      01-03-2013, 11:10 AM   #36
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Useless post. Someone piss in your cornflakes?
About as useful as the rest of the posts in this thread! I think my tolerance is eroding.
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      01-03-2013, 11:13 AM   #37
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100% correct. A modification made on a modern volume production line can be made instantly, and more importantly (as stated) on an individual car. The cost of adding an additional radiator is almost non-existent over the course of the car's production run, unlike other, far more complex components.

If the M Sport cars in the US market do in fact have additional cooling, it's a Legal/Marketing decision based the Market itself. The US is a far more litigious country than say the UK or the Middle East, therefore "overheating" claims and their resulting warranty and legal payouts could be a potential financial disaster for the company, as opposed to the nominal investment of additional cooling. Think "Class Action", and it all begins to make sense.

It's unfortunately a sad commentary on modern Marketing and manufacturing that I've seen countless times over the past 20 years in the business...
This is a big part of it. Has everyone already forgotten about the guy who came crying because his 4 year old car burned down and he was upset BMW didn't give him a brand new one for his troubles? The "land of entitlement" should be added to the national anthem.
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      01-03-2013, 11:16 AM   #38
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Can we get back to the topic of how this different cooling setup can possibly cause the fan to go Full Blast and dead throttle when its not even hot outside?
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      01-03-2013, 11:19 AM   #39
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Nope. I'm having a great day.

There's a track within an hour of Philly - New Jersey Motorsports Park. Look it up.

Then of course there's Summit Point, Watkins Glen, Pocono, VIR, etc. that are a bit further, but well worth the drive.

So, you're one of the 1%. Therefore you have no point of reference or understanding about just how important cooling is.

The BMWCCA is one of the largest enthusiast automotive clubs in the world (if not THE largest). Imagine the other side of the coin if BMW didn't take this into consideration. Not having fog lights is a small price to pay for not burning down cars on track. These motors run very, very high oil temperatures. It's not a game.

Even if only 1% actually do track their cars, don't you think it would be a bit ridiculous if BMW just ignored that fact and delivered cars that weren't able to handle it? Sure, they're not P-cars or F-cars, but they're still a well respected, performance-oriented brand. You just don't deliver a product that "looks" like it will deliver, but ultimately doesn't.

By the way, I'm not making this up. It's straight from the proverbial horse's mouth. I'm not guessing, speculating or theorizing. Hate all you want, I really don't care. I just think it's ridiculous how many folks on here resort to conspiracy theories to explain away things they don't understand. And it's even MORE ridiculous the same damn crap is brought up over and over again when it's been played out a million times before. The OP started a thread about the fact that he discovered the M Sport has auxiliary cooling. It's degraded into a bitchfest about BMW cheapening their products and hiding that fact behind bullshit marketing.

I am one of the few who do track their cars, modify their cars.

It's not so much a conspiracy. Take the rose colored glasses off. BMW is a corporation first. One out to make money.

No one is saying they made an inferior product by deleting the fog lights for NA cars. But for a long time now, fog lights are one of these features stripped from model to model as a means of saving money.

If you look at the shape and surface area of the fog light, you would see, it's not a deal breaker.

Fact is, if the fog light really was a restriction NO where in the world would they be installed on the M-Sport.

You happen to notice in other countries M-Sports either come with the bigger brakes or it's a $350 option? Nothing like that for the US?(unless you count M-Performance stuff for $2k) Why is that? Oh yeah, BMW wanted to keep the unsprung weight down on the US cars because US drivers are more concerned with handling over braking.
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      01-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #40
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Why is that? Oh yeah, BMW wanted to keep the unsprung weight down on the US cars because US drivers are more concerned with handling over braking.
We're also chubbier, in general, than most other countries, I'm sure they had to factor that into the overall weight equation

I used to track with M Club several years ago, let me know where you AutoX, would be great to get them out for an afternoon this spring!
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      01-03-2013, 12:00 PM   #41
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We're also chubbier, in general, than most other countries, I'm sure they had to factor that into the overall weight equation

I used to track with M Club several years ago, let me know where you AutoX, would be great to get them out for an afternoon this spring!
I am going to make a change with where I auto-x.

I bought a hardtop for the Roadster just so I could track with the CCA. Nope, politics and fear of being sued keeps all open top cars from participating, even rollbar/hardtop cars. So I did events with the Audi club of all people.

Now with the F30, I can play in all their reindeer games
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      01-03-2013, 12:08 PM   #42
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100% correct. A modification made on a modern volume production line can be made instantly, and more importantly (as stated) on an individual car. The cost of adding an additional radiator is almost non-existent over the course of the car's production run, unlike other, far more complex components.
If a special adjustment has to be made just for middle east cars, they're not going to recover the costs over the minuscule run of maybe 10-20 m-sport cars a year.

If these cars are produced in a factory that can handle adjustments like this in the blink of an eye, and the cars meant for the middle east don't have something different about them which prevents the extra cooling from being fit-able without having to move other components around, then no it's not a problem.

I understand the litigious aspect as well. Car companies figure out the probability and cost of a lawsuit and compare it to the cost to make an adjustment. The chance of one of the 10-20 middle east M-sport car purchasers per year suing BMW for cooling issues is next nothing. If it costs more for BMW to add the extra cooling vs. just plugging in some fog lights then there's no business case to provide the extra cooling to the middle east.

Whether it's production cost increases or litigation likelihood, the fact that only a handful of M-sports will go to the middle east could very likely be a big factor in why they're not getting the extra cooling.
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      01-03-2013, 12:30 PM   #43
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Nope. I'm having a great day.

There's a track within an hour of Philly - New Jersey Motorsports Park. Look it up.

Then of course there's Summit Point, Watkins Glen, Pocono, VIR, etc. that are a bit further, but well worth the drive.

So, you're one of the 1%. Therefore you have no point of reference or understanding about just how important cooling is.

The BMWCCA is one of the largest enthusiast automotive clubs in the world (if not THE largest). Imagine the other side of the coin if BMW didn't take this into consideration. Not having fog lights is a small price to pay for not burning down cars on track. These motors run very, very high oil temperatures. It's not a game.

Even if only 1% actually do track their cars, don't you think it would be a bit ridiculous if BMW just ignored that fact and delivered cars that weren't able to handle it? Sure, they're not P-cars or F-cars, but they're still a well respected, performance-oriented brand. You just don't deliver a product that "looks" like it will deliver, but ultimately doesn't.

By the way, I'm not making this up. It's straight from the proverbial horse's mouth. I'm not guessing, speculating or theorizing. Hate all you want, I really don't care. I just think it's ridiculous how many folks on here resort to conspiracy theories to explain away things they don't understand. And it's even MORE ridiculous the same damn crap is brought up over and over again when it's been played out a million times before. The OP started a thread about the fact that he discovered the M Sport has auxiliary cooling. It's degraded into a bitchfest about BMW cheapening their products and hiding that fact behind bullshit marketing.
I wouldn't want to catch you on a bad day!

Your thoughts are really hard to follow but whatever. Fog lights or not I don't give 2 shits. I was just making a side comment about the fact only very few people track their cars and therefore the justification of tracking/racing was bogus to explain this omission. ALSO, cars that are tracked should and are prepped for this purpose, nobody would track a stock F30 unless they were retarded or tracking it 2 times a year. SO, to rely on BMW to prep your car for tracking is a fail proposition. This can't be the explanation. The explanation is either economics or warm weather which is a little far fetched but not as much as the tracking explanation!
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      01-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #44
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If a special adjustment has to be made just for middle east cars, they're not going to recover the costs over the minuscule run of maybe 10-20 m-sport cars a year.

If these cars are produced in a factory that can handle adjustments like this in the blink of an eye, and the cars meant for the middle east don't have something different about them which prevents the extra cooling from being fit-able without having to move other components around, then no it's not a problem.

I understand the litigious aspect as well. Car companies figure out the probability and cost of a lawsuit and compare it to the cost to make an adjustment. The chance of one of the 10-20 middle east M-sport car purchasers per year suing BMW for cooling issues is next nothing. If it costs more for BMW to add the extra cooling vs. just plugging in some fog lights then there's no business case to provide the extra cooling to the middle east.

Whether it's production cost increases or litigation likelihood, the fact that only a handful of M-sports will go to the middle east could very likely be a big factor in why they're not getting the extra cooling.
The R&D cost for additional cooling has already been sunk for US-spec cars, so it'll cost nothing more to fit them to even a production run of a single unit. The line workers just fit or not fit certain parts according to the computer screen. If BMW deems it's necessary for certain markets to have the additional cooling then they'll include it in their national spec. The marginal cost is only the additional parts.
As for no-fogs, BMW can offset the extra cost of the additional cooling with not fitting fogs.
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