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      01-08-2013, 12:07 PM   #23
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Is it me, or are the 335xi and the S4 similarly priced in the US, when comparatively equipped? I don't see the huge price difference people mention. (Yes, you can score a 335xi stripper for much cheaper but who buys a $40,000 car and does not get any option on it?). Apples to apples, I see similar prices.
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      01-08-2013, 12:14 PM   #24
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Dunno how you customized them, when I specced a 335xi to my liking and a comparable S4 to my liking the S4 was like 5k-6k more.
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      01-08-2013, 12:34 PM   #25
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Some good perspectives from the The Economist and Frencholivier. The 335i is just an engine upgrade compared to the 328i. Most non-enthusiasts won't even know the difference. However, the S4 is viewed differently than the A4 because its got the "S", its got the upgraded engine and its got different styling. I can see why people would think the S4 is compared to the M cars.
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      01-08-2013, 02:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
there's a lot of personal opinion here, so here's mine.


I like that BMW offers all the choices though...Audi just doesn't, and the price for an A4 S line came within thousands of my 335i RWD, and THAT performance/handling gap is significant (stock for stock).
Hit the head of the nail with the Hammer on this one. The S-Line Audi does NOT even come close to comparing, it HAS to be the full blown S series

This is a great thread, cheers (Since I couldn't find the emoticon where they are clinking beer together, I chose what happens after you clink enough delicious beverages together)
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      01-08-2013, 02:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frencholivier View Post
Is it me, or are the 335xi and the S4 similarly priced in the US, when comparatively equipped? I don't see the huge price difference people mention. (Yes, you can score a 335xi stripper for much cheaper but who buys a $40,000 car and does not get any option on it?). Apples to apples, I see similar prices.
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoi View Post
Dunno how you customized them, when I specced a 335xi to my liking and a comparable S4 to my liking the S4 was like 5k-6k more.
Depending on the state you are purchasing within, you'll be lucky to get a similarly priced NEW 335xi M SPORT to a NEW Audi S4 (premium line).

Used market is totally different, and like I mentioned earlier, you are paying less for a car (335xi) that is arguably sharper at handling AND has comparable speed AND is better looking (I think Audi's look boring, except for the RS5).
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      01-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #28
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I agree that the S4 feels more bespoke and special than a 335i (I'm not talking about handling, power, braking, balance, etc.). It has unique seats and a more upscale interior on the inside and different body panels for a more unique exterior. Without looking at the mirrors or the badge, I can tell an S4 from an A4. This is compared to how BMW just slots a different engine into the exact same car ( la C250 ---> C350).

But I think that the M-Sport 335i is not the competition to the Audi S4. BMW introduced the 335is for this very reason and now BMW will have a level of M-performance cars to compete directly with Audi's S-line. The BMW M135i has more power, unique rims, bigger brakes, different steering, different bushings, etc.

So at least they're trying to make something to slot between the 335i and M3, which would likely make the M3 more hardcore (just like how Ferrari made the 458 much more serious than the F430 after introducing the California).
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      01-08-2013, 02:47 PM   #29
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Lots of great debate here and it's interesting that there's been so much BMW v.s. Audi discussion lately. I hear all this talk about RS4's, yet Audi hasn't brought one to the US since what... 2008? IMO, AoA is completely interested in mass market sales growth and has forgotten about the enthusiasts who helped make the brand what it is becoming in the US today. No more sport wagons, turned the A3 into a sedan (WTF?!) no RS4, no RS6... blah.
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      01-08-2013, 02:58 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoi View Post
Personally hate the Audi lineup advertising. You have the A4, then the S4, then the RS4. I prefer just straight forward (this has a bigger engine, otherwise you can get the exact same accessories/options and they look the same). Honestly having the S4 kinda just makes me look at anyone with an A4 like "oh man you were too cheap/broke to get an S4. or you're over 50".
How is this different from BMW?
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      01-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #31
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Lots of good insight in this thread.

What's interesting here is more of the perception v. reality angle - not saying that I think (or anyone here thinks?) that the S4 is a superior proposition to the 335i (proper RWD architecture and Q Car-like simplicity was key for me), but Audi certainly makes it feel like it, and that's where I think they are more successful than BMW.

If you had an S4-equivalent 335i (think M-Sport + more aggressive PPK), that would probably go a long way marketing-wise.
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      01-08-2013, 04:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Economist View Post
Lots of good insight in this thread.

What's interesting here is more of the perception v. reality angle - not saying that I think (or anyone here thinks?) that the S4 is a superior proposition to the 335i (proper RWD architecture and Q Car-like simplicity was key for me), but Audi certainly makes it feel like it, and that's where I think they are more successful than BMW.

If you had an S4-equivalent 335i (think M-Sport + more aggressive PPK), that would probably go a long way marketing-wise.
Agreed. I think BMW markets the 335i as a powerful 3-series whereas Audi markets the S4 as a supersports car. So to be more explicit BMW should keep the 328i as is, and maybe rename the 335i as M335i? They already started this numbering in the 1-series...
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      01-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frencholivier View Post
Agreed. I think BMW markets the 335i as a powerful 3-series whereas Audi markets the S4 as a supersports car. So to be more explicit BMW should keep the 328i as is, and maybe rename the 335i as M335i? They already started this numbering in the 1-series...
Or instead of calling the 4 series the 4 series, just call it the 3 series supersport or sth <_<

I think this is a great tie-in to the whole does badge matter thread, except it's also "does line/branding like supersport, touring, gt, limited, etc matter"

Kind like how Kia came out with the "limited" Optima, which is just an Optima with higher trim, but it's selling much better than, say, an "Optima 335 vs 328".

Keep in mind all these badging comes with a steep pricetag. I prefer BMW's "a BMW is a BMW. They're all good. Doesn't matter if it's the 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, or X, all you'll get outa us is numbers, cause a BMW speaks for itself"
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      01-08-2013, 07:14 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
there's a lot of personal opinion here, so here's mine.

The 335i can't compete with the S4 because the price difference is nearly $8k (335xi M Sport vs. S4).

With that in mind, I think a 335xi M Sport does remarkably well against an S4.

The M3 and RS4 are the competitors for sure, but it's difficult to compare because their power delivery strategies are entirely different (RWD vs. AWD, respectively).

Interesting I'm coming across this today, since the past few days I've been watching video reviews and online reviews about these cars, and I have beef too.

From my previous outsider perspective, before coming to read about BMW on an enthousist board, and based on marketing, BMW website, seeing the cars on the road, the 335i is to me a 328i with a bigger engine, maybe some options or standard features not available on 328i. Stuff like different wheels, or different colors, colored stitching...big deal right?! M3 is the mega 3-series, yes?

On the other hand for my audi perspective, the S4 is its' mega car. The car that Audi puts up against the M3. M..something, or S...something, are the mega cars, 320, 325, 328, 335 are just the next notch up in engine size, like 1.8T, 2.0T, 3.0, 3.2 etc.. for Audi.

So yes, from an outsider, casual observer, the S marketing would lead to believe that it does compete with the M, that S is a special designation, and is Audi's answer to M. So that's how I would pit them based on badge, and where they rank within the resepctive compaies series. And other casual observers would probably see it the same way too.

What is bugging from reading reviews or videos, is that I have a hard time accepting that an AWD car is to be compared to a RWD car. Not in the aspect that RWD is better or worse, or that AWD is better or worse. Not like that at all. But in how can 2 different things be compared. Maybe a 335 xdrive can be compared to an S4. Now you would have a real technical comparison. You would be comparing cars in the same category, power, drive train etc...

This leads me to say that Audi really does not have anything that can technically be compared to the M3.....or a 335i, or 328i, or even 320i. But they can compare a FWD Audi to a Mini.
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      01-08-2013, 07:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Economist View Post
Lots of good insight in this thread.

What's interesting here is more of the perception v. reality angle - not saying that I think (or anyone here thinks?) that the S4 is a superior proposition to the 335i (proper RWD architecture and Q Car-like simplicity was key for me), but Audi certainly makes it feel like it, and that's where I think they are more successful than BMW.

If you had an S4-equivalent 335i (think M-Sport + more aggressive PPK), that would probably go a long way marketing-wise.
like S4...it would be a low-volume seller.
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      01-08-2013, 07:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrunner View Post
Interesting I'm coming across this today, since the past few days I've been watching video reviews and online reviews about these cars, and I have beef too.

From my previous outsider perspective, before coming to read about BMW on an enthousist board, and based on marketing, BMW website, seeing the cars on the road, the 335i is to me a 328i with a bigger engine, maybe some options or standard features not available on 328i. Stuff like different wheels, or different colors, colored stitching...big deal right?! M3 is the mega 3-series, yes?

On the other hand for my audi perspective, the S4 is its' mega car. The car that Audi puts up against the M3. M..something, or S...something, are the mega cars, 320, 325, 328, 335 are just the next notch up in engine size, like 1.8T, 2.0T, 3.0, 3.2 etc.. for Audi.

So yes, from an outsider, casual observer, the S marketing would lead to believe that it does compete with the M, that S is a special designation, and is Audi's answer to M. So that's how I would pit them based on badge, and where they rank within the resepctive compaies series. And other casual observers would probably see it the same way too.

What is bugging from reading reviews or videos, is that I have a hard time accepting that an AWD car is to be compared to a RWD car. Not in the aspect that RWD is better or worse, or that AWD is better or worse. Not like that at all. But in how can 2 different things be compared. Maybe a 335 xdrive can be compared to an S4. Now you would have a real technical comparison. You would be comparing cars in the same category, power, drive train etc...

This leads me to say that Audi really does not have anything that can technically be compared to the M3.....or a 335i, or 328i, or even 320i. But they can compare a FWD Audi to a Mini.


RS series. Audi has the A, the S, then the RS. Though the availability of RS is horrid.
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      01-08-2013, 08:55 PM   #37
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Here's my thoughts...

Audi A4 2.0T is roughly $5k cheaper than a 328ix, item for item, and is a better bargain IMO. I see more younger people driving Audi's than BMW. While growing up as a kid, BMW was the choice vehicle for yuppies. The word Yuppy meant YOUNG urban professional. I don't see many young people, especially right out of college, drive BMW's anymore. They used to. Instead I see the young crowd swinging towards driving Audi's and the middle age crowd swinging towards BMW 3 series (they used to only buy the 5 series at one time). I think Audi has done a phenomenal job in it's advertising campaign with the younger demographic within the last 10 years. Audi has always had an excellent reputation here in New England, long before BMW developed 4WD. 20 years ago you couldn't find one BMW in a Vermont ski resort parking lot, but there would always be tons of Audi's. In snow country Audi's reputation was king. It sort of still lingers on.

Now I can afford a BMW and afford to pay that $5k difference, and yet I still like both brands. I think BMW is kidding themselves if they feel Audi isn't a serious threat and is only for wanna-be BMW owners. Here in the USA, the average Audi driver earns slightly more per capita than the average BMW, so their selection isn't based on cost alone. It's more complicated than that. Maybe it's both good marketing and good price points.
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      01-08-2013, 09:11 PM   #38
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While I'm not the youngster demographic, I did consider the A4 (and Mercedes and Infiniti) before ordering a 328ix two months ago. With my choice of gadgets, it was $50K just like the 328. Further, it got worse reviews generally, worse mileage, and looked bland to me (although my wife loved it). Also, it was last overhauled in 2008, while the 328 was in 2012.

So at the moment, I think the 328 has a clear advantage over the A4. Although if the A6 weren't $16K more and a foot longer, it would have been tempting.
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      01-08-2013, 09:40 PM   #39
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I am surprised people here think the S4 is special. My 335 x drive m sport cost more than most S4 and S5 prestige models out there, per the mfctr claims, my 3er beats both S4/5 to 60, it has more tech than you can find in both S4/5 and is more fuel efficient. Btw it only has 300 hp. If its so special why the small sales numbers (I am in the US). Yeah, yeah I have had the lease vs buy thing but looking at the Dec sales, the 3er sold 18k copies, Audi sold about 6k, assume 10% are the big engines, that's 1800 335s and 600 Audis. Even if 2/3rd of 3ers are leased that still leaves as many 335s bought as s4/5s bought leased combined. My feeling is the majority of people who know the facts prefer the 3er (in the US) despite Audis adv in the corners with tq vectoring.

I did test drive the S4, the interior is great and it drives well, unfortunately so does the 3er
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      01-08-2013, 09:47 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoi View Post
I'd say the Msport 335i gives the S4 a pretty good run for it's money. I don't know what you mean by M335i, it'd just be the M3 they're releasing this year. Personally don't really consider an M3 and RS4 "Competetors", you get an M3 if you want a sports car that's actually a sports car, you get an RS4 if you're a cock
By M335i, I mean the M335i. Something in a similar vein to the M135i, or even the E92 335is. A model (or special edition) between the top of the line 3 series and the real ///M cars.

I agree the 335i holds up well against the S4, which is why I think it surpasses the A4 3.0 TFSI quattro. To me that is its real direct competitor.

My point is you guys always seem to make comparisons between the S4 and 335i only because these are the models available in your region.
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      01-08-2013, 09:50 PM   #41
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In the US these two are direct competitors there is no doubt about that.
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      01-08-2013, 10:25 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I am surprised people here think the S4 is special. My 335 x drive m sport cost more than most S4 and S5 prestige models out there, per the mfctr claims, my 3er beats both S4/5 to 60, it has more tech than you can find in both S4/5 and is more fuel efficient. Btw it only has 300 hp. If its so special why the small sales numbers (I am in the US). Yeah, yeah I have had the lease vs buy thing but looking at the Dec sales, the 3er sold 18k copies, Audi sold about 6k, assume 10% are the big engines, that's 1800 335s and 600 Audis. Even if 2/3rd of 3ers are leased that still leaves as many 335s bought as s4/5s bought leased combined. My feeling is the majority of people who know the facts prefer the 3er (in the US) despite Audis adv in the corners with tq vectoring.

I did test drive the S4, the interior is great and it drives well, unfortunately so does the 3er
You know, you're right. A 335i msport is just a much more expensive 328 with a bigger engine and apperance package. Nothing special. Keep moving, nothing to see here.
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      01-08-2013, 10:37 PM   #43
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You got me wrong, a 328i can be had with the same m sport stuff save for a few things and that sweet smooth inline 6. I know guys who paid 54k for the 328i m sport, you can get an S4 with nav for that.

The guys spending at the S4 levels are smart enough to know the S4 is no M3, it's right there at the 3er level. Even the RS5 has bean beaten in every comparo by the E90 M3. One of my neighbors who has the f30 328i thought mine was a 5 series, probably she was thinking M5 due to the color, if these types of comments give me a high then I am lost.
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      01-08-2013, 11:24 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
You got me wrong, a 328i can be had with the same m sport stuff save for a few things and that sweet smooth inline 6. I know guys who paid 54k for the 328i m sport, you can get an S4 with nav for that.

The guys spending at the S4 levels are smart enough to know the S4 is no M3, it's right there at the 3er level. Even the RS5 has bean beaten in every comparo by the E90 M3. One of my neighbors who has the f30 328i thought mine was a 5 series, probably she was thinking M5 due to the color, if these types of comments give me a high then I am lost.
This might be so, but we're talking about marketing, this is how this all started, and how Audi has seemingly been sucessful in making the S4 out to be the competitor to the 335 and the M3. Rightfully or not, sticking S4 on an audi has the same effect as sticking M, or SS, or GT,GTR, GTS etc... on various cars, and is what the marketing hopes to, and has largely achieved with buyers in the market for an Audi or BMW. Eventhough, maybe it is true, that in terms of where it sits, performance wise it probably sits where the 335sits.

And I'm not going to take away from your enjoyment of your 335. You got the proper car. Tell you what. I went to see an A4. I sat it in it in the show room, I didn't even take it out on a test drive, I just didn't want it, it tries too hard to be the cool kid, I went back to the BMW dealer and bought one. It makes me happy. BMW is, THE CAR. It doesn't need to try to be cool,figuratively, it just is. Crappy cup holders and all. Audi is the current trend, and I don't want to follow it.

Now if we step away from what marketing wants us to believe, for me, what I said before was, that I think that a AWD 335 should be the comparison, not as what I usually see as the comparisons to be between a RWD 335 or M3 and and S4 on internet reviews/comparisons or videos. Again not because RWD is bad, and the RWD does well vs the S4. But you can't compare them properly. They don't behave the same way. You get enthousiastic reviewer comments for the S4 like "you just can't get this car loose, it's like it is riding on rails" and for the M3, "You really can get the rear loose, i'm fighting it, it takes every skill I have to race it, i wonder if I will make it out alive" but then again maybe that is the whole point of the M3.

But If the reviewer likes the RWD M3 type of sports car, then maybe the comments, for the S4 could be "you just can't get this car loose, it's like it is riding on rails, how boring" and for the M3 "everytime I take a corner the rear gets loose, i'm fighting it, it really makes you feel alive"

But if you are reviewing 2 AWD cars, or 2 RWD cars then it is a comparison of apples to apples. And now you can really pick out the nuances between the 2. But you don't have a RWD Audi, so audi really has no comparative competitor.
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