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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > BMW Announces 320i and 320i xDrive for U.S. Market priced at $33,445
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      01-25-2013, 06:35 PM   #353
clarence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Propagator View Post
Thanks for the summary, I was following the thread quite closely, but it's nice to have all the info in one thread.

But let me rephrase my criticism against your binning hypothesis in a clearer form. I am not rejecting the notion that there would be some binning. I am arguing that that alone is not enough to explain why the low output version cannot be made to generate higher output for long enough for someone to develop and sell the software.

In other words, if you apply a cut on a continuous distribution with one maximum, most of the failed cases will come from just below the cut line, meaning that they will be very similar to the ones that barely passed the cut. Now, we know that the ones that pass the cut is very likely capable of withstanding high output for 100K miles or longer. Then there is no way that the ones that barely failed the cut, which is the most likely case, will be so different from the ones that barely passed, that no tuner can tune it up long enough to market a product.
I understand ur point, & no, I don't think it's the be all & end all in this case. Binning is only the starting point for engine selection.

Firstly, I think partly it depends on the variance distribution of those engines, which nobody outside of BMW will know. That is to with with the inherent tuneability of those engines.

Secondly, there can also be sensors which are inaccessible to piggy-back modules, in which case the DME will receive unadultered data for those parameters.

I don't know whether any tuner have managed to obtain a low compression U0 for development purpose, as the first thing they can try is to fit a O0 DME & then bench the engine.
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      01-25-2013, 11:17 PM   #354
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So the 320 and 328 are (almost) identical and yet there is a sizeable price difference. 2 possible conclusions from there:
* The 328i is insanely profitable
* The 320i will be at a loss or no benefit for BMW, and is just intended to fill the market and prevent other brands from gaining followers

I suspect the second one. Also, the 3 bangers is expected to deliver the same 180hp, but think of the sale pitch on the US market.
You would have had a 300hp i6, 240hp i4, and introduce a new 180hp i3. People would have been trashtalking about brand dilution and ridiculous undermotorenwerke for ages, damaging the new engine sales and possibly the brand image.
Now look at the sales pitch when introducing the 180hp i3, when the 180hp i4 exists in the lineup already... Same hp, gets 30% mpg increase, that's like you can actually make a point that the i3 is superior technology, instead of being watered down crapola.
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      01-25-2013, 11:27 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
That is an interesting note (bolded), but I think it supports my hypothesis better than yours. If the production runs are smaller, then the binning approach makes even less sense. I'm still not convinced that BMW is concerned with broad scale modding affecting their bottom line.

Also, think about the entire argument you're making about BMW trying to protect their bottom line against chip-tuned 320i cars competing with a standard 328i. A chip-tuned 180 HP N20 is capable of 230-ish WHP according to the dyno chart referenced here:

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=14

So customers could still buy a 320i, then chip tune it to get factory 328i power. In this case, BMW has failed in the goal that you set for them.
It makes perfect sense. They only need a small number of engines to become U0 from a production run that has a low failure rate (tho there are probably more which passes the test but at the lower end of the variance). So the "demand & supply" in this case is in equilibrium.

The dyno chart u attached is for a low compression U0. If no binning has been done then by running at O0's level of boost (plus other parameters) it should give at least the full 245ps/350Nm, if not more (as dyno readings from a number of 28i in stock form proves time & again). Remember wht the BMW China tech staff said regarding swapping pistons & DME mapping on a high compression U0? From this dyno I wouldn't say BMW failed cos a.) this is from a low compression U0 & b.) it did not manage to produce at least the O0 baseline output. Most tuners quote around 220ps from piggy-backs w/o optimisation to individual cars, so 230ps is the most u can get just by using a piggy-back.

Don't forget that the difference in margin is big for most markets where the U0 is popular when compared to the O0 (e.g. the pre-tax price delta in Japan for a X1 20i is around USD10,000 when compared to the X1 2.8i, in China the delta is USD14,600), u can see the cost/benefit is skewed hugely towards using measures to preventing this opportunity cost, however small the number of ppl willing to do such tunes. The cheaper & the more convenient the tune is, the more the ppl are willing to buy them. Piggy-backs are inexpensive & installation is easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Ok, so sometimes the 180 HP U0 engines are made from defects, but sometimes they're not. Doesn't this also degrade the strategy you've outlined?
How does it degrade? The number one goal is cost saving. Being able to sell otherwise "defective" engines already gives instant cost savings. As I said before, they already dyno every engine that leaves the line & they already have all the data for each engine. There's no additional cost to them to identify which are potential candidates to be a U0 & which ones must be a U0.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Interesting, but there's still the matter of motivation. Simply protecting their bottom line still doesn't make sense for the reasons outlined above. What if, instead, they use the low-compression engine in foreign assembly plants expressly for the purposes of JIT. If all your engines were identical, you could just flash them with the appropriate software and send them down the line. I don't have an explanation for the lower than normal tuning results from the 20i, but maybe there is some other unknown factor?
AFAIK that's not sth currently done cos plants that does not build engines doesn't have engine testing facility apart from the dynos that are run at the end of final assembly QC. It would take too much time if they only found out sth is wrong when the car is fully assembled. Part of the principle of JIT is to identify problems at source so downtime is minimised if problems do occur.
JIT for BMW is to minimise production cost & maximise quality, it's not for satisfying customer orders so they can get their cars double quick. They try to dictate customer demand rather than the other way round (different to volume makers, they make u choose them rather than they choosing u). That's why there're all these dealer & importer allocations. As these allocations are fully committed by the respective importers/dealers, they have advanced info right at the beginning of the year regarding wht to make & when to make. The only variable is the colour combo & equipment spec. That's the reason why, for example, they have incentive programmes for various models during various times. That is to create demand for hitting allocation targets.
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      01-28-2013, 12:45 AM   #356
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0-60 in 7.1 is pretty impressive actually
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      02-03-2013, 04:44 PM   #357
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Clarence, I hate to burst your bubble but the 320i and 328i share the same piston, at least in the USA. The article sites info source by BMW NA.

so basically in summary the only thing limiting the 320i from putting out 300hp is the ecu
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      02-03-2013, 05:02 PM   #358
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^I didnt see any facts in that post, only lots of speculation. It seems to me that if the 320i and 328i had the same engine that the European tuners like Schnitzer, Hartge, G-Power, etc would have already found this.
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      02-03-2013, 06:09 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by 328inGE View Post
^I didnt see any facts in that post, only lots of speculation. It seems to me that if the 320i and 328i had the same engine that the European tuners like Schnitzer, Hartge, G-Power, etc would have already found this.
they have already found this because as it has been repeated a million times before but people still miss it is that those companies release the tuning chip for the 328i is to be used for the 320i because they are the same but the 320i limits power
also u just skimmed through the article and u concluded it'd speculation when all the facts are there the writer stated everything clearly and mentioned his source in the comments his source is BMW north America
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      02-03-2013, 07:37 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by topcat87 View Post
they have already found this because as it has been repeated a million times before but people still miss it is that those companies release the tuning chip for the 328i is to be used for the 320i because they are the same but the 320i limits power
also u just skimmed through the article and u concluded it'd speculation when all the facts are there the writer stated everything clearly and mentioned his source in the comments his source is BMW north America
I "skimmed" the article again but still not clearly seeing any facts that the pistons are the same as you stated or that the 320i can be tuned to the same power as the 328i.
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      02-04-2013, 09:55 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by topcat87 View Post
Clarence, I hate to burst your bubble but the 320i and 328i share the same piston, at least in the USA. The article sites info source by BMW NA.

so basically in summary the only thing limiting the 320i from putting out 300hp is the ecu
Actually one doesn't really need that article. If you go to the website of BMW NA, the Specification of 320i Sedan clearly states that the compression ratio of 320i is 10:1.

However, if you look at the Spec of 320i xDrive, you'll be surprised to find that the compression ratio of 320i xDrive is 11:1.

So, could this be some kind of error, or BMW NA is taking a completely different approach from those in rest of the world?
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      02-04-2013, 10:38 AM   #362
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I bet they will sell a ton of these things. I had one as a loaner (been available up here for a while) and it was pretty good. 8 speed tranny is always on the move which makes it great (quick but a little annoying) in the city. Great little car.
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