F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > Alpina F30 B3 Bi-Turbo Revealed with 410 HP. Debuts at Geneva Motor Show
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-17-2013, 04:36 PM   #89
verbs
Lieutenant
10
Rep
539
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Totally agree with that. That is why seing how good the B3 performance figures , I can only imagine what the M3 will be.

I said that in regard to those discrediting the Alpina. It is a better choice than a 335i if you can get it. No tuned 335i will be better than the Alpina, so let alone comparing 335i to M3. (taking about F30/F80)
With a warranty, of course..... no tuned 335i will be better, but you'll get a lot of people who will tell you they can achieve all the performance improvements for 1/2 of the cost of the Alpina.

Intercooler + downpipe + tune will get you pretty close to the horsepower numbers seen, and can be done for what, $3000 or so installed. Add a few more thousand for upgraded suspension and a limited slip diff, and you're pretty close to the total package.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 04:58 PM   #90
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,446
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
With a warranty, of course..... no tuned 335i will be better, but you'll get a lot of people who will tell you they can achieve all the performance improvements for 1/2 of the cost of the Alpina.

Intercooler + downpipe + tune will get you pretty close to the horsepower numbers seen, and can be done for what, $3000 or so installed. Add a few more thousand for upgraded suspension and a limited slip diff, and you're pretty close to the total package.
With the same reliability?
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 05:01 PM   #91
verbs
Lieutenant
10
Rep
539
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
With the same reliability?
Of course not, but a lot of people will struggle to justify the cost difference for that aspect IMO. I'm not one of them however.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 06:57 PM   #92
Jamesons Viggen
Brigadier General
United_States
50
Rep
3,573
Posts

 
Drives: '98 M Roadster stg 2+ S/C
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Rochester Hills MI

iTrader: (3)

I am excited about the new M3. With the V8, although lust worthy, I drive too much for that to be my DD.

If the car has a breathed on N55 and weights less, it should get close to 30mpg and a 400 mile range.

I think it will be my next DD in less than five years.
__________________
'98 M Roadster S/C @11-16ps
'06 Saab 9-5 wagon 5mt Aero+ Tuned
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 06:59 PM   #93
shivaswrath
Brigadier General
shivaswrath's Avatar
United_States
43
Rep
3,144
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lost in NJ

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Comparing same cars with approx. the same power and the same price is "apples and oranges comparision"? So I guess there is only one sort of apple and one sort of orange.
It's apples and oranges when they are in a different price range, no?
If they are the same price, different story...I thought the Alpina was 15% more.
__________________
2012 335i Mineral Gray
M Performance Whore: PPK|Exhaust|Brakes|Performance Suspension Struts & Springs|LSD|Black Kidney Grilles|CF Spoiler and Mirror Caps|Bav Stage 1|400Ms|BMWF30.com
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 07:00 PM   #94
shivaswrath
Brigadier General
shivaswrath's Avatar
United_States
43
Rep
3,144
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lost in NJ

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
I am excited about the new M3. With the V8, although lust worthy, I drive too much for that to be my DD.

If the car has a breathed on N55 and weights less, it should get close to 30mpg and a 400 mile range.

I think it will be my next DD in less than five years.
That's what I'm thinking...I'm paid off with this one by 2018, and since the new model series is coming out in 2019, I figure I could get Lime Rock edition then...and DD the $hit out of it!
__________________
2012 335i Mineral Gray
M Performance Whore: PPK|Exhaust|Brakes|Performance Suspension Struts & Springs|LSD|Black Kidney Grilles|CF Spoiler and Mirror Caps|Bav Stage 1|400Ms|BMWF30.com
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 07:00 PM   #95
SamS
Brigadier General
SamS's Avatar
61
Rep
4,574
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
If the car has a breathed on N55 and weights less, it should get close to 30mpg and a 400 mile range.
If regular a 335i doesn't get that kind of mpg, why would you expect an M3 to get better?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 07:19 PM   #96
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,446
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
It's apples and oranges when they are in a different price range, no?
If they are the same price, different story...I thought the Alpina was 15% more.
I was talking about the data I posted. It compared B3 and M3. Not 335i. The B3 is just a proof of the 335i's potential.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 07:21 PM   #97
shivaswrath
Brigadier General
shivaswrath's Avatar
United_States
43
Rep
3,144
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 335i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lost in NJ

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I was talking about the data I posted. It compared B3 and M3. Not 335i. The B3 is just a proof of the 335i's potential.
Ugh, sorry, I think we're on two different wave lengths #forumfail.

I was saying that yes, they are very similar, but it's apples to oranges because the Alpina is more $$.

I see what you're saying though, the 335i is certainly very capable (Alpina certainly demonstrating this) and if I was in any of the EU countries, I would've held off purchase of my 335i to get an Alpina...
__________________
2012 335i Mineral Gray
M Performance Whore: PPK|Exhaust|Brakes|Performance Suspension Struts & Springs|LSD|Black Kidney Grilles|CF Spoiler and Mirror Caps|Bav Stage 1|400Ms|BMWF30.com
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 07:42 PM   #98
Jamesons Viggen
Brigadier General
United_States
50
Rep
3,573
Posts

 
Drives: '98 M Roadster stg 2+ S/C
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Rochester Hills MI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
If regular a 335i doesn't get that kind of mpg, why would you expect an M3 to get better?
335 gets 30+ on the highway and the M3 should not be heavier. I did not say it would average 30...I do mostly highway driving. 30 highway and a 400 mile range would be perfect. I think the E90 M3 struggles to crack 20mpg and 300 miles a tank. You had one, you tell me lol.
__________________
'98 M Roadster S/C @11-16ps
'06 Saab 9-5 wagon 5mt Aero+ Tuned
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 07:49 PM   #99
SamS
Brigadier General
SamS's Avatar
61
Rep
4,574
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
335 gets 30+ on the highway and the M3 should not be heavier. I did not say it would average 30...I do mostly highway driving. 30 highway and a 400 mile range would be perfect. I think the E90 M3 struggles to crack 20mpg and 300 miles a tank. You had one, you tell me lol.
Yes, the E9x really struggles to get to 20mpg. I took it all the way back from PCD to Dallas (~1000 miles), so I had plenty of opportunities to try to max out highway mpg.

The F80 may not be heavier (although, it might) than a 335i, it will have a diff, and maybe bigger/heavier brakes and wheels to eat away at mpg compared to a 335i. And it will probably have the 7-speed DCT, where the 335i often has the 8HP which helps out its highway mpg.

I realize this is all speculation, but I just don't see an F80 even matching a 335i for mpg. Just compare a 550i F10 to a M5. No doubt the F80 mpg will be better than the E9x M3, but it will still be a hard argument to make that it will be an economical daily driver. Heck, it just cost me $50 to fill up my AH3 yesterday, and I wasn't too happy about that
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2013, 08:15 PM   #100
Jamesons Viggen
Brigadier General
United_States
50
Rep
3,573
Posts

 
Drives: '98 M Roadster stg 2+ S/C
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Rochester Hills MI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Yes, the E9x really struggles to get to 20mpg. I took it all the way back from PCD to Dallas (~1000 miles), so I had plenty of opportunities to try to max out highway mpg.

The F80 may not be heavier (although, it might) than a 335i, it will have a diff, and maybe bigger/heavier brakes and wheels to eat away at mpg compared to a 335i. And it will probably have the 7-speed DCT, where the 335i often has the 8HP which helps out its highway mpg.

I realize this is all speculation, but I just don't see an F80 even matching a 335i for mpg. Just compare a 550i F10 to a M5. No doubt the F80 mpg will be better than the E9x M3, but it will still be a hard argument to make that it will be an economical daily driver. Heck, it just cost me $50 to fill up my AH3 yesterday, and I wasn't too happy about that
We will just have to wait and see. I think it will be far better than the E90.

My hugely over powered Roadster manages 26 on the highway, averages 20 and goes 200 on a tank-if it was a 17 gallon tank it would be DD worthy in my eyes lol.
__________________
'98 M Roadster S/C @11-16ps
'06 Saab 9-5 wagon 5mt Aero+ Tuned
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2013, 10:35 AM   #101
Alpina_B3_Lux
Colonel
Alpina_B3_Lux's Avatar
Germany
62
Rep
2,451
Posts

 
Drives: Audi R8 V10, BMW 330d E91 LCI
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 335i  [4.39]
Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
I don't see how you can say that. Is 100 lb-ft of peak torque gain with even more than that under the curve, and a subsequent sizeable horsepower jump under the curve as well almost no power gain? Peak numbers aren't the end all, especially on the track.
I think you misunderstood me. I never claimed that there was not more torque or more hp under the curve; although I haven't seen a hp/torque curve for the new B3 that can certainly be true. I was only commenting on the fact that 410 hp compared to 400 for the B3 S Biturbo (E9x) is only a very slight increase. Previous iterations have seen far larger jumps in power (and also torque), such as 55hp between the E46 B3 S and the B3 BT or even the 40hp between the E9x B3 BT and B3 S BT.

And my point was that Alpina would be able to achieve a far larger jump in power, but that due to the almost nonexistent power jump of the new M3 compared to its predecessor, they were not allowed to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
There are a number of ways weight can be dropped. Lighter sports seats, lighter weight wheels, lighter weight exhaust system, carbon fiber driveshaft, lighter weight battery, smaller gas tank since the car will get a lot better mileage, a few lbs from lighter engine internals, maybe a magnesium engine cradle if it's not being used currently, etc.... and as we've seen in testing carbon ceramic rotors which shave nearly 50lbs themselves. And if the M3 wants to get real serious about weight loss and back to its roots a bit, a reduction/disallowance of certain amenities.
The latter will never happen, because there exist no sizable market for an M3 with loss of amenities / ride comfort these days. That may be unfortunate and both of us may not share that view, but it's a fact - were BMW to do that, that would only be possible for a limited edition special model such as the CSL or GTS in the past. The mainstream M3 must still be a daily drivable car, otherwise it will not sell - and that means it has to have all the comfort accessories that people today are used to.

Also, I don't see carbon ceramic rotors on an M3. Maybe as an option (as for the M5), but remember that the M3 targets far lower in price than the M5 and high-cost items like this cannot be integrated as a standard option into a car that is based on a 3 series.

The rest of the stuff you listed may very well happen, but these measures (that have already been tried out partially by the GTS and CRT models) will in my opinion not result in a weight reduction that is going to be significant enough to make a difference performance wise. Anything that would do that would need to modify the 3 series setup to a point where the M3 would have little in common with its normal siblings; and that would mean it would simply be out of a price range that is marketable for that model.

Personally I believe that a significant weight reduction can only be done by way of a complete alu chassis (like Audi has been doing as well as Ferrari) or an extensive use of carbon fiber (like McLaren or Lamborghini). BMW does not have the expertise for the former, and the latter is currently cost-prohibitive for all but supercars. That may very well change (apparently BMW will move there with the next 7 series), but we are still far from a point where you can use carbon fiber for models that are mass-market. There would not even exist factories that could cope with this demand today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
Carbon fiber has gotten a lot cheaper of late, so I wouldn't be surprised to see BMW increasing its use of it....and BMW is currently partnering with BMW to improve carbon fiber manufacturing/recycling techniques.

While I'm not getting my hopes up too high, there have been rumblings of this, and keep in mind, weight loss falls into BMW's efficient dynamics mantra while allowing for improved performance.
Yes, but right now that's more of an efficient marketing strategy than anything else. There is not even one single existing model where we have seen significant weight reduction - rather the contrary, if you look at the present 5 and 6 and 7 series, and let's not even speak about the lumbering X models.

Alpina_B3_Lux
__________________
Audi R8 V10; sold: BMW 335i
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2013, 12:51 PM   #102
mapezzul
Special Agent
mapezzul's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
1,737
Posts

 
Drives: Depends on the day!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bavaria

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
BMW does not have the expertise for the former, and the latter is currently cost-prohibitive for all but supercars. That may very well change (apparently BMW will move there with the next 7 series), but we are still far from a point where you can use carbon fiber for models that are mass-market. There would not even exist factories that could cope with this demand today.
Alpina_B3_Lux
You have obviously missed the entire BMWi program thus far- the deal with BMW/SGL and Toyota and BMW collaberation with Boeing. BMW has the ability to produce CF more economically- at greater scale and has the infrastructure. We are 9 months or so from CF mass produced (not super cars) entering the world. Times are changing and the next 7 will be the first non BMWi product from BMW to be produced mainly from CF.
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2013, 03:18 PM   #103
SCOTT26
Brigadier General
SCOTT26's Avatar
311
Rep
3,236
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen Dark Silver 30 Jahre
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WORLDWIDE

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
You have obviously missed the entire BMWi program thus far- the deal with BMW/SGL and Toyota and BMW collaberation with Boeing. BMW has the ability to produce CF more economically- at greater scale and has the infrastructure. We are 9 months or so from CF mass produced (not super cars) entering the world. Times are changing and the next 7 will be the first non BMWi product from BMW to be produced mainly from CF.
We intend to over the course of the next twelve months show a body in white of either an existing or future BMW to show the use of future material technology.
Their is a very strong vocal that our first mainstream car out with BMWi will be the next generation 7er. And will show the potential of how that car compared to the current model will drastically drop in weight.
When you combine CFRP , aluminium , magnesium , thermoplastic and press-hardened steel which will filter down within the BMW portfolio even spreading into additional models for the high end premium segment.

BMW intend to use the i3 launch to also publish a report showing how cost-effective CFRP is for BMW compared to our competitors and you will be impressed. As full investment could probably have accommodated rival vanity projects to our competitors , BMW chose to focus. That is why it will be right to wait because not only will it be cost effective but profitable unlike one of our competitors.

One such example is the MINI Rocketman concept. Today it is unthinkable because it would very expensive to do if we look beyond the concept detailing and focus on the CFRP floorplan. Such a concept this size and of mass volume production would be feasible for 2018.
__________________
Electrified
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2013, 03:30 PM   #104
mapezzul
Special Agent
mapezzul's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
1,737
Posts

 
Drives: Depends on the day!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bavaria

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
We intend to over the course of the next twelve months show a body in white of either an existing or future BMW to show the use of future material technology.
Their is a very strong vocal that our first mainstream car out with BMWi will be the next generation 7er. And will show the potential of how that car compared to the current model will drastically drop in weight.
When you combine CFRP , aluminium , magnesium , thermoplastic and press-hardened steel which will filter down within the BMW portfolio even spreading into additional models for the high end premium segment.

BMW intend to use the i3 launch to also publish a report showing how cost-effective CFRP is for BMW compared to our competitors and you will be impressed. As full investment could probably have accommodated rival vanity projects to our competitors , BMW chose to focus. That is why it will be right to wait because not only will it be cost effective but profitable unlike one of our competitors.

One such example is the MINI Rocketman concept. Today it is unthinkable because it would very expensive to do if we look beyond the concept detailing and focus on the CFRP floorplan. Such a concept this size and of mass volume production would be feasible for 2018.
I pulled out of my M135i order in hopes of a BMWi product.... and more race prepped car in the garage

I am invested in BMW's commitment to the future and CF in more ways than one...
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2013, 05:48 PM   #105
lfelunden
First Lieutenant
lfelunden's Avatar
Germany
4
Rep
322
Posts

 
Drives: Alpina B3S Biturbo Coupe
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: German Autobahn

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotios335i View Post
wow, this car is impressive. I wonder what the've done to the n55. 0-62 in 4 seconds! Thats fast.
Well it's the N55, but biturbo
__________________
Alpina B5S doing 330kmh/205mph for more than 1 minute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGizo...9gVs9cAUP05Zk=
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2013, 07:35 PM   #106
tony20009
Brigadier General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
130
Rep
4,591
Posts

 
Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

It's a shame these cars don't make it to the US.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      02-19-2013, 05:02 AM   #107
Alpina_B3_Lux
Colonel
Alpina_B3_Lux's Avatar
Germany
62
Rep
2,451
Posts

 
Drives: Audi R8 V10, BMW 330d E91 LCI
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 335i  [4.39]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
You have obviously missed the entire BMWi program thus far- the deal with BMW/SGL and Toyota and BMW collaberation with Boeing. BMW has the ability to produce CF more economically- at greater scale and has the infrastructure. We are 9 months or so from CF mass produced (not super cars) entering the world. Times are changing and the next 7 will be the first non BMWi product from BMW to be produced mainly from CF.
I do not think that it is quite so obvious that I missed the electrical program. But I thought it was equally obvious that we are discussing combustion engine cars in this thread.

And I assume that you have also read Scott's post - it will be a few years until BMW can really mass produce CF cars. The new M3 will certainly not be a part of this, which was the point that I was trying to make (and which you quite obviously missed).

Alpina_B3_Lux
__________________
Audi R8 V10; sold: BMW 335i
Appreciate 0
      02-19-2013, 07:43 AM   #108
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
183
Rep
13,835
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 SO/CSAT F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
The new M3 will certainly not be a part of this, which was the point that I was trying to make (and which you quite obviously missed).
It is true that the new M3 and M4 come too early to be a part of BMW's carbon fiber revolution, but that does not mean they won't feature more weight savings efforts vs. the series cars than we are accustomed too. And that includes the M5/M6 vs. their 5/6 counterparts.

There is a reason why the M chassis is F8x while the AG chassis is F3x. This could be due to weight savings efforts by M. It could also be utterly arbitrary and mean nothing at all (not a good bet IMHO), or it could mean something else that has nothing to do with weight (any guesses? Size sure is not it. Maybe shape? Color? Flavor? Odor? ).

The fact is we don't know much about this chassis yet. If we assume a F3x rolling chassis weighs about 1800 lbs (that's a wild guess folks - feel free to provide a more accurate number), is a 10% weight reduction feasible (assuming no CF used in the unibody or body panels other than roof and perhaps hood/decklid)? Debateable, but perhaps not impossible.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
Appreciate 0
      02-19-2013, 09:42 AM   #109
ALPINA B5
Banned
Malaysia
1
Rep
175
Posts

 
Drives: the subway. otherwise the bmw.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

not to be mean but i hope it doesn't get sold in the states. loses the exclusivity once it goes there.
Appreciate 0
      02-19-2013, 09:58 AM   #110
SamS
Brigadier General
SamS's Avatar
61
Rep
4,574
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPINA B5 View Post
not to be mean but i hope it doesn't get sold in the states. loses the exclusivity once it goes there.
I'm pretty certain that Alpina 3/5 cars would not go over well in the US, because the pricing would be so close to M3/M5. Buyers in this $60-$100K USD range have a lot of options, including Porsche, MB, etc. The buyers that are looking for more exclusivity are typically in the $150K+ range, i.e. B7 territory.
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:53 AM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST