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      10-06-2013, 09:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk
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Originally Posted by DVC View Post
. . . even the best AWD systems that have a complete rear wheel bias when cornering still inherently create more understeer when pushing the car hard in a turn.
Yes.

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If you plan to track your car I doubt anyone can argue with the merits of hanging the tail out on the track, best done with the rwd.
This is the absolutely worst way to go through a corner, it is the slowest. Ever see an F1 car hanging out the rear end? Of course, not.

Rally cars employ a cross-controlled pendulum turn which forces the rear end to slid around because of the poor traction of the surfaces upon which they race - coupled with the inherent understeer of AWD. This straightens the car out as quickly as possible so that AWD's advantage of acceleration in a straight line on loose surfaces can then be exploited.

Not a good technique on the street.

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The xdrive dials out some of the under steer that may kick in with the rwd car though.
No. Never. And this is not even vaguely possible.

At best, the xDrive system can transfer torque to the rear wheels, reducing the inherent understeer of xDrive. If it transfers 100% to the rear, xDrive then finally reaches the lowest understeer characteristics of any driveline configuration - RWD. At any other time xDrive exhibits more understeer than RWD.

This is engineering reality and physics. One simply cannot design out AWD understeer without employing sophisticated torque steering and the like - none of which xDrive possesses.

(FWD, of course, exhibits the most understeer of the three driveline variants. AWD is in the middle. RWD the lowest.)

xDrive is a fine choice. It can provide increased acceleration in snow and ice. This can provide a driver more confidence getting going at intersections, climbing icy hills, etc. In exchange, xDrive gives up some handling - a perfectly fine tradeoff for many.

If you live in a warm climate with few curvy roads you probably will never notice either.

As a high-performance driving instructor, living in an area of twisty roads, and having driven many BMWs of both RWD and xDrive persuasions the characteristics of both are obvious - even in routine street driving. If you do not notice, buy either as it will never matter to you.

For the OP, either configuration will get you through Chicago winters with all-season or winter tires. If you are worried, get the xDrive and a set of winter tires.

The tail out was meant to show that the rwd is more fun to drive on the track. Even the part about laying down rubber. Those are some nice ways to have fun that unfortunately xdrive will not provide.

We get back to the under steer issue, that was by design, since you are an instructor I will believe you on that
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      10-06-2013, 09:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp
Xdrive has come a long way from its initial application and now only adds about a tank of gas in terms of weight. It's also proven that in a straight line the rwd is slower than the xdrive. (This is fact, not theory) In the twisties we do not have any evidence of the rwd being faster so the jury is still out. We can speculate but it would be more useful if we had track data on this.

Judging from your post this is not what you are looking for.

In the winter what is dead certain is awd with winters is the best choice for winter driving. Any other combination (awd with all seasons, rwd with winters, etc) will have to come in second.

If you plan to track your car I doubt anyone can argue with the merits of hanging the tail out on the track, best done with the rwd. I also doubt you can lay down some rubber on the xdrive as it just puts power to the floor and takes off. For everyday driving or if you go to the track less often xdrive was designed to mirror the rwd, so whatever you get from the rwd you will get from the xdrive car. The xdrive dials out some of the under steer that may kick in with the rwd car though. With DHP you reduce the body roll from the standard suspension given the additional ride height in the xdrive compared to sport suspension. Either way body roll has been noted to be one unfortunate traits of the F30 in general probably save for those with MPS.

Either way, we have happy campers with rwd cars and equally happy campers with xdrive. All the best with the choice you make.
Totally agree. I know that a lot of enthusiasts on this board shun AWD. And, it's true that AWD rides a bit higher and has a little more body roll. On the other hand AWD will ride better on wet roads, and will allow you to go up a snowy hill a lot better than RWD. (Folks will say that RWD with snow tires will do just fine. I don't agree. Good luck trying to drive up a steep, icy/slushy incline with RWD.)

At the end of the day, unless your tracking your car, or are in the habit of kicking out the rear on public roads (neither of which I'm in the habit of doing), AWD does not present any performance disadvantages. On dry public roads, I don't think you'll feel much of a difference in terms of handling.
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      10-06-2013, 09:22 PM   #25
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No, it can't.
Yea, it can.

xDrive 335 is as fast, if not slightly faster, than the RWD variant.
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      10-06-2013, 09:29 PM   #26
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No, it can't.
Yea, it can.

xDrive 335 is as fast, if not slightly faster, than the RWD variant.
Correct, Xdrive is faster than rwd, in a straight line. That's a fact. However when we get to the 120mph area rwd will start to take the lead.
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      10-06-2013, 10:49 PM   #27
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15mm* higher center of gravity. 'Nuff said.

* Likely closer to 14mm, accounting for the weight of wheels, brakes, and partial weight of suspension.
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      10-06-2013, 10:59 PM   #28
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Elk, try not to have any sort of technical discussion with 300hp. His extent of knowledge only goes as far as car magazines and manufacturer brochures.
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      10-06-2013, 11:07 PM   #29
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Yea, it can.

xDrive 335 is as fast, if not slightly faster, than the RWD variant.
LOL. Sure. But no.

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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Correct, Xdrive is faster than rwd, in a straight line. That's a fact. However when we get to the 120mph area rwd will start to take the lead.
Please stop talking.

Back 0-30 MPH acceleration out of any acceleration figure in the magazine you're reading and then compare. RWD will have an acceleration advantage from the lowest point of full traction and beyond. This is only magnified as speeds increase when higher drivetrain losses have a greater effect. If all you do is a full standing-start launch across every intersection, then by all means...an xDrive will perform better. Aside from that, there is not a single performance measure where the xDrive (or practically any AWD version of the same car offered in RWD) will outperform.

People should sack up and run the enthusiast-standard V-Box 60-130 MPH test. I'll bet the xDrive is more than a full second slower.
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      10-07-2013, 01:09 AM   #30
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Correct. Due to higher weight alone awd will be a little slower than rwd. Due to higher ride, and softer suspension, xDrive will not handle quite the same as a rwd with sport suspension. As an owner of an xDrive, I acknowledge and accept this. I will say, however, that even if you are an aggressive driver, the performance advantage of rwd will not really be that noticeable unless you're on the track, or driving dangerously on public roads. (Controlled oversteer and power drifts are fun, but they are not part of everyday driving.)

I chose AWD because It will handle better in rainy weather and snowy conditions. And I do a lot of my driving in these conditions. If I didn't, I would have chosen RWD, because it IS the sportier option.
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      10-07-2013, 04:10 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32
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Yea, it can.

xDrive 335 is as fast, if not slightly faster, than the RWD variant.
LOL. Sure. But no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Correct, Xdrive is faster than rwd, in a straight line. That's a fact. However when we get to the 120mph area rwd will start to take the lead.
Please stop talking.

Back 0-30 MPH acceleration out of any acceleration figure in the magazine you're reading and then compare. RWD will have an acceleration advantage from the lowest point of full traction and beyond. This is only magnified as speeds increase when higher drivetrain losses have a greater effect. If all you do is a full standing-start launch across every intersection, then by all means...an xDrive will perform better. Aside from that, there is not a single performance measure where the xDrive (or practically any AWD version of the same car offered in RWD) will outperform.

People should sack up and run the enthusiast-standard V-Box 60-130 MPH test. I'll bet the xDrive is more than a full second slower.
This test also has some descent rolling start numbers. This one has PPK.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...?fullsite=true

Here are the same rolling start numbers for rwd no PPK.

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se...50_comparison/

Yes rwd will catch up, around 120mph, no one denied that. However whatever lead xdrive gets at one point, it will maintain into the triple digit territory where the rwd will then start realizing its weight advantage.

What would be more useful is to find track data so we can see which is faster around a track and we can stop bench drag racing
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      10-07-2013, 05:51 AM   #32
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Correct. Due to higher weight alone awd will be a little slower than rwd. Due to higher ride, and softer suspension, xDrive will not handle quite the same as a rwd with sport suspension. As an owner of an xDrive, I acknowledge and accept this. I will say, however, that even if you are an aggressive driver, the performance advantage of rwd will not really be that noticeable unless you're on the track, or driving dangerously on public roads. (Controlled oversteer and power drifts are fun, but they are not part of everyday driving.)

I chose AWD because It will handle better in rainy weather and snowy conditions. And I do a lot of my driving in these conditions. If I didn't, I would have chosen RWD, because it IS the sportier option.
Don't worry too much about the weight, xdrive takes care of that and beats the rwd till 120.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bimmer-page-4

This was the E9x generation and the xdrive back then weighed more than it does now.

However this was a case of lazy journalism since both cars could have been tracked and we would know now which one tracks faster.
Big fail to C&D here
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      10-07-2013, 06:43 AM   #33
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What about the principle of work of X drive? DSC makes some predictions ...

I have experience with quattro (on Q7) and everything is OK when the car is moving, but if you go to park the car in some snowy area there is a problem. You have to stope and go back to park. Then front left and rear right wheels try to move but the others two wheels do nothing. The car stay on a place and even goes down (there is icy after the upper snow level). A years ago I had Cherokee - it was real 4x4.
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      10-07-2013, 07:15 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDK
What about the principle of work of X drive? DSC makes some predictions ...

I have experience with quattro (on Q7) and everything is OK when the car is moving, but if you go to park the car in some snowy area there is a problem. You have to stope and go back to park. Then front left and rear right wheels try to move but the others two wheels do nothing. The car stay on a place and even goes down (there is icy after the upper snow level). A years ago I had Cherokee - it was real 4x4.
I've seen plenty of 4x4 vehicles stuck in snow. Driving in those conditions there will always be tough spots to get out of especially if your tires are not ideal. Overall AWD cars cover you for most cases. I have never been stuck in my AWD cars.
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      10-07-2013, 07:16 AM   #35
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What about the principle of work of X drive? DSC makes some predictions ...

I have experience with quattro (on Q7) and everything is OK when the car is moving, but if you go to park the car in some snowy area there is a problem. You have to stope and go back to park. Then front left and rear right wheels try to move but the others two wheels do nothing. The car stay on a place and even goes down (there is icy after the upper snow level). A years ago I had Cherokee - it was real 4x4.
The previous gen quattro center differentials are not self locking - they are something like max 15-85/60-40. If one axle has literally zero traction than it will act like an open diff and route all torque to the freely spinning axle. The simple solution is to hit the brakes. The newest iteration of the quattro diff is self-locking (crown center differential), but currently can only be found a select few Audi cars.

Xdrive won't have this problem since the torque routing to the front axle is computer controlled, so the abs computer will detect front wheel slip and tell xdrive what to do. Of course this has negative implications in other scenarios, but for the one above, this is the best configuration other than a true 4x4 locking diff or self-locking one. The EVO and STI employ more advanced versions of active (computer controlled) center differentials.
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      10-07-2013, 07:57 AM   #36
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I've seen plenty of 4x4 vehicles stuck in snow. Driving in those conditions there will always be tough spots to get out of especially if your tires are not ideal. Overall AWD cars cover you for most cases. I have never been stuck in my AWD cars.
Yes, probably the tyres also was problematic (4 th year Michelin winter tyres). It was enough protector but maybe the ruber becomes harder.
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      10-07-2013, 08:02 AM   #37
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The previous gen quattro center differentials are not self locking - they are something like max 15-85/60-40. If one axle has literally zero traction than it will act like an open diff and route all torque to the freely spinning axle. The simple solution is to hit the brakes. The newest iteration of the quattro diff is self-locking (crown center differential), but currently can only be found a select few Audi cars.

Xdrive won't have this problem since the torque routing to the front axle is computer controlled, so the abs computer will detect front wheel slip and tell xdrive what to do. Of course this has negative implications in other scenarios, but for the one above, this is the best configuration other than a true 4x4 locking diff or self-locking one. The EVO and STI employ more advanced versions of active (computer controlled) center differentials.
When you have to stop the car in order to reverse the gear to rear one ( when you park the car) what the computer can do? There is nothing to predict.
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      10-07-2013, 08:08 AM   #38
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When you have to stop the car in order to reverse the gear to rear one ( when you park the car) what the computer can do? There is nothing to predict.
I don't follow what you're talking about with respect to AWD systems, sorry....
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      10-07-2013, 08:17 AM   #39
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Sorry.

When you go to park the car in some parking with lots of snow. You have to change the gear box from front to rear. Then the car stop ot place.
The computer can predict that some of wheels going to loose the traction posibilies, when the car moving. But when the car is stoped for manoeuvre - what the computer can do?
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      10-07-2013, 08:29 AM   #40
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Sorry.

When you go to park the car in some parking with lots of snow. You have to change the gear box from front to rear. Then the car stop ot place.
The computer can predict that some of wheels going to loose the traction posibilies, when the car moving. But when the car is stoped for manoeuvre - what the computer can do?
OK, I understand, when you change gear and attempt to move the car (assuming now you're stopped), the wheels will slip if there is no traction. The ABS system will detect this slip by means of optical wheel count encoders, and inform xdrive to change the torque appropriation to the axle that presumably has traction. There could possibly be some delay, but eventually the car will move.

When you stop and change direction (drive to reverse or vice versa), this process will start over. There is no need for "memory" within this system to function properly (Markov property), the computer will update itself in real-time (the estimated state vector used for feedback control).
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      10-07-2013, 08:33 AM   #41
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Thanks for detailed explanations! It have to be usefull!
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      10-07-2013, 08:38 AM   #42
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Quote:
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Sorry.

When you go to park the car in some parking with lots of snow. You have to change the gear box from front to rear. Then the car stop ot place.
The computer can predict that some of wheels going to loose the traction posibilies, when the car moving. But when the car is stoped for manoeuvre - what the computer can do?
The computer can detect wheel spin, and transfer torque to the other axle.
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      10-07-2013, 08:51 AM   #43
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Correct. Due to higher weight alone awd will be a little slower than rwd. Due to higher ride, and softer suspension, xDrive will not handle quite the same as a rwd with sport suspension. As an owner of an xDrive, I acknowledge and accept this. I will say, however, that even if you are an aggressive driver, the performance advantage of rwd will not really be that noticeable unless you're on the track, or driving dangerously on public roads. (Controlled oversteer and power drifts are fun, but they are not part of everyday driving.)

I chose AWD because It will handle better in rainy weather and snowy conditions. And I do a lot of my driving in these conditions. If I didn't, I would have chosen RWD, because it IS the sportier option.
Again, I am not an xDrive detractor, but I do disagree that only on a track (or driving dangerously) can the differences between xDrive and RWD be appreciated. In good traction conditions, when xDrive is at it's best, it is heavily biasing the rear wheels... but even at it's best, the increased drag on the front wheels is still felt. If you drive an equally equipped xDrive and RWD back-to-back, I think you'd feel it too.
Also, just to be clear about the advantages of xDrive, it will never offer a "handling" advantage... in any road conditions. It offers an acceleration traction advantage, which is best appreciated in slippery conditions. This has nothing to do with braking/cornering traction, which is more a function of tires in slippery conditions. And unless you're driving very aggressively in the rain/snow (where you're on the gas hard in a turn while exceeding the lateral grip of the tires) the acceleration traction advantage has nothing to do with cornering. Where xDrive offers the appreciable advantage is acceleration traction (from a stop, up a hill, etc.) in snowy/slushy/icy conditions... OR (and this is for you 300hp ; ) from a dead stop when drag racing from light to light!
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      10-07-2013, 08:58 AM   #44
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Elk, try not to have any sort of technical discussion with 300hp. His extent of knowledge only goes as far as car magazines and manufacturer brochures.
I had not seen this. Why would anyone with more in depth knowledge about engineering (I am not an engineer) not want to test their theory against observations made in the established magazines. That to me would be dumb. If you have a thesis that says rwd is faster than awd all the time, from 30, whatever the case may be. Then the auto magazines should be pure heaven for you since you can confirm this thesis.

One of the arguments I have had with Elk and I can confirm he knows more that I do is he believes xdrive should under steer more than rwd. I told him this is not being observed by the automotive journalists, the S4 seems to exhibit this more than the xdrive. See those two articles I put through to you. At least he has never shied away from what is being said and instead he just told me he is an instructor for high end vehicles.

Out of respect for him I will believe what he said and honestly he has stuck to his word from day one, never wavered from his position on that.

Now your turn to say something that we can confirm.
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