F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (IMSA, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..) > We need more race cars with manual transmissions
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-29-2017, 09:51 AM   #23
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
7209
Rep
13,942
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [4.29]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
You went too extreme...why not talk about not even having an engine and race on bare feet?
The ultimate race car for REAL drivers
Attached Images
 
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps / CF spoiler / GC Camber plates / Eibach springs
Appreciate 1
MKSixer6661.00

      10-29-2017, 09:53 AM   #24
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
7209
Rep
13,942
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [4.29]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The thing is Manual does offer more options than DCT in driving dynamics where as the removal of power steering does not. One example is you can ride the clutch while throttle on as a way of traction control during cornering (but keep turbo boost up because there is still throttle input) where as with DCT you are either left to electronics or simply throttle down or off with boost down.
First time I've ever heard of that.

I've heard of left foot braking to manage traction or to keep the car on boost. But riding the clutch ...
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps / CF spoiler / GC Camber plates / Eibach springs
Appreciate 0
      10-29-2017, 10:35 AM   #25
w00tw00t
Colonel
w00tw00t's Avatar
United_States
280
Rep
2,166
Posts

Drives: 2016 MW M4
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Jose, CA

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
You went too extreme...why not talk about not even having an engine and race on bare feet?

The thing is Manual does offer more options than DCT in driving dynamics where as the removal of power steering does not. One example is you can ride the clutch while throttle on as a way of traction control during cornering (but keep turbo boost up because there is still throttle input) where as with DCT you are either left to electronics or simply throttle down or off with boost down.
riding the clutch in turns????? Is that how you do it?
Appreciate 0
      10-29-2017, 10:39 AM   #26
mtoosexy
Second Lieutenant
184
Rep
288
Posts

Drives: It like I stole It
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtoosexy View Post
completely agree!! automatic is faster than I would ever be able to manually change gears...nor am I as intuitive as a machine bred and built to do the shifting . But man would it be fun to try...in order to keep it competitive I will give the automatic guys the few second advantage
I think MT folks are missing the point that DCT can be "manually" shifted. There is no "intuitivity" aspect needed for the transmission, the driver still remains in the best position to anticipate and determine what gear should be used. The DCT is faster because it can shift gears without interrupting power to the drive wheels during a shift, while with a traditional MT, there will be an inherent short deceleration while the clutch is engaged, the gear is changed and clutch re-engaged. Further, with a DCT, since there is no interruption of power during a shift, it is possible to shift while cornering without upsetting the balance of the chassis. DCT is faster because th way it operates, not because it can "automatically" change gears.
OK? maybe we need to pump the brakes ? this wasn't supposed to turn into MT guys vs Automatic guys. I am sure we are all TOUGH GUYS/GALS here. I didn't mean to step on anyone's manhood/womanhood. I happen to be an MT guy and I know full well that the automatic is faster. I Know the reasons why autos are faster -with the un-interruption of power and the instantaneous power delivery. Nobody has forgotten that you can change your gears in an automatic "manually". I have driven a few supercars with paddle shift? they were magnificent. (Ferrari 488 Being my favorite.) My original post stated that I would pay extra for a third pedal. Not because I think it's faster or better around a race track, ONLY because it is more enjoyable to ME. My enjoyment comes 1st, track times come 2nd.
Name any car on the planet? and I would pay extra for a third pedal. I just wish more car manufacturers offered the option? I know it's not gonna happen, but a guy can dream right?
__________________
RS4 guy turning to the "DARKSIDE"?
Appreciate 0
      10-29-2017, 09:36 PM   #27
Scrippy
Lord Scrip
Scrippy's Avatar
United_States
332
Rep
1,362
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: LA,Ca

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
While we are at it, they should also remove the DSC and ABS from the GT4, with the front-rear brake bias manually set by the driver to put more on the driver. And remove the synchros from the gearbox, so they really learn how to shift gears. And why not remove power steering and brake assistance so they can truly exercise their skills with arm and leg muscles. Maybe we should also have the drivers set the ignition advance manually, like in the good ol' days, as well as have them set the fuel mixture manually, that'd be a hoot. Only the "true" drivers would win ...
You went too extreme...why not talk about not even having an engine and race on bare feet?

The thing is Manual does offer more options than DCT in driving dynamics where as the removal of power steering does not. One example is you can ride the clutch while throttle on as a way of traction control during cornering (but keep turbo boost up because there is still throttle input) where as with DCT you are either left to electronics or simply throttle down or off with boost down.
If you have turbos, I suppose this is true. I'm not sure what DCT you are driving but the DCT in the E92 can be on gas during up or down shift, so if there were turbos in the S65 they'd still be spooled up for ya. Unfortunately the only value in a stick is the enjoyment you get. There really isn't anything else beyond this. The DCT is a manual but instead of a slave cylinder and a third pedal, there is no pedal and solenoids to engage and disengage the clutch for you. Once in manual mode it only does what you say except if your driving 20 in 5th gear it will downshift for you if you don't. There is nothing a DCT can't do but I'll wait to see if someone comes up with something.
__________________
Love it, clean it, maintain it and drive it like you stole it!
Appreciate 1
Robin_NL2520.50

      10-29-2017, 09:40 PM   #28
1MOREMOD
2018 track days - 0 ridge 1:52:24 pacific 1:33:30
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
5759
Rep
18,879
Posts

Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by w00tw00t View Post
riding the clutch in turns????? Is that how you do it?
I dump the clutch on entry down shifts to get the car turned in quicker.
Appreciate 1
w00tw00t280.00

      10-30-2017, 01:08 AM   #29
Karmic Man
Lieutenant
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
283
Rep
479
Posts

Drives: 1M
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sydney

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
First time I've ever heard of that.

I've heard of left foot braking to manage traction or to keep the car on boost. But riding the clutch ...
I became aware of this technique over 25 yeas ago from racing car driver Motoharu Kurosawa.

Have la ook at his left footwork after the double de-clutching from 2:12 onwards.


Last edited by Karmic Man; 10-30-2017 at 01:21 AM.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2017, 01:21 AM   #30
Karmic Man
Lieutenant
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
283
Rep
479
Posts

Drives: 1M
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sydney

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The ultimate race car for REAL drivers
There you go

Appreciate 0
      10-30-2017, 01:40 AM   #31
kprocivic
Lieutenant Colonel
kprocivic's Avatar
725
Rep
1,552
Posts

Drives: ecoboost s to the t
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: 92346

iTrader: (7)

i'd like to see people post laps in a manual car first, then in a auto or dct and compare the time.

have a strange feeling they may be similar. you can only drive as fast as you are able to no matter how easy a car is to drive.
__________________
2.0l ecosmackkaa

Last edited by kprocivic; 10-30-2017 at 01:46 AM.
Appreciate 2
RABAUKE2715.50

      10-30-2017, 06:26 AM   #32
madmax240
Enlisted Member
9
Rep
35
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Sep 2007

iTrader: (0)

Auto/DCT cars have the electronics in the transmission that control the gear shifts. the driver just selects up/down. so what annoys me is the programming taking over and over-riding what I gear I want. e.g. if I want to use a lot of engine braking, I might down shift very early. or if I want to keep a car stable during a corner, I might hold it past redline.
unless you have a race programmed transmission, I'm pretty sure, the car is going to disallow any commands it doesn't like. This also means I might not be in the gear I think I am in, if the down shifts didn't happen each time I selected the downshift paddle. which will cost me time when I go to accelerate.
so MT for me, because it's fun and I stay in control.
Appreciate 1
mtoosexy183.50

      10-30-2017, 06:58 AM   #33
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
7209
Rep
13,942
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [4.29]
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax240 View Post
Auto/DCT cars have the electronics in the transmission that control the gear shifts. the driver just selects up/down. so what annoys me is the programming taking over and over-riding what I gear I want. e.g. if I want to use a lot of engine braking, I might down shift very early. or if I want to keep a car stable during a corner, I might hold it past redline.
unless you have a race programmed transmission, I'm pretty sure, the car is going to disallow any commands it doesn't like. This also means I might not be in the gear I think I am in, if the down shifts didn't happen each time I selected the downshift paddle. which will cost me time when I go to accelerate.
so MT for me, because it's fun and I stay in control.
Seems like you haven’t driven an ///M DCT. It does exactly what the driver commands, it will ride the rev limiter if you don’t upshift, it will downshift early if you ask it to. The only time the DCT will override the driver is when the driver commands a downshift that would cause an overrev (prevent a morey shift) or if the driver omits to downshift when it would cause the engine to bog down. Besides those exceptions, the DCT does exactly what the driver wants.
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps / CF spoiler / GC Camber plates / Eibach springs
Appreciate 2
Robin_NL2520.50
MKSixer6661.00

      10-30-2017, 09:08 AM   #34
M3 Adjuster
Major General
M3 Adjuster's Avatar
United_States
5591
Rep
9,931
Posts

Drives: 1M, X1 M Sport, E46 325ic
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas, Tx

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax240 View Post
Auto/DCT cars have the electronics in the transmission that control the gear shifts. the driver just selects up/down. so what annoys me is the programming taking over and over-riding what I gear I want. e.g. if I want to use a lot of engine braking, I might down shift very early. or if I want to keep a car stable during a corner, I might hold it past redline.
unless you have a race programmed transmission, I'm pretty sure, the car is going to disallow any commands it doesn't like. This also means I might not be in the gear I think I am in, if the down shifts didn't happen each time I selected the downshift paddle. which will cost me time when I go to accelerate.
so MT for me, because it's fun and I stay in control.
Seems like you haven’t driven an ///M DCT. It does exactly what the driver commands, it will ride the rev limiter if you don’t upshift, it will downshift early if you ask it to. The only time the DCT will override the driver is when the driver commands a downshift that would cause an overrev (prevent a morey shift) or if the driver omits to downshift when it would cause the engine to bog down. Besides those exceptions, the DCT does exactly what the driver wants.
It's dry outside , beside those exceptions when it rains.

My kid was really good , Beside those exceptions when he shot an animal and bullied another child.

It's pretty easy to remove the point by explaining it away.




A manual transmission *requires* that the driver *always* be in command of the car.

It doesn't " shift up to prevent an over rev ".. and it doesn't " shift down to get in the correct gear ". if you miss a gear as a driver , or if you choose the wrong gear in a manual transmission vehicle then there are consequences.

These consequences are what makes the difference. If I miss a gear, then I missed it.

It's like taking a test in school, no one comes along and checks the correct answer box for me just because i forgot to check a box.

Any error made is mine, I accept that , whether taking the test above or if I am racing or driving on track with another driver in a session and I lose time because I was in the wrong gear , then i have to figure a way to make up the time I lost.

If the difference in skill is that the other driver shifts better than I do then that's why the other driver is superior.

CanAutM3 i think it's an interesting item to debate, whether or not why the majority of racing series that spec an automated transmissions did so or if they did so because it's * faster* or instead to limit costs.

One of the pitfalls of racing is blowing up stuff like engines and transmissions. Besides the exception of being *faster * : a DCT transmission helps manage expenses for manufacturers of street cars and also does the same in racing series like Formula 1.

Traction control does the same as DCT with respect to tire management... by limiting the amount of wheelspin, tire management becomes less a factor. The same is true of ABS although extreme driver error can still occur under braking and even ockup occurs.
In an F1 for example a driver can still blister a tire.
__________________
Lone Star BMW CCA Chapter Ex-president (retired 2017) , Chief Driving Instructor - LIFETIME Member # 119366
If you don't STAND for something.. you'll FALL for anything
Past: 1991 BMW E30 M3 street car ; 1988 BMW E30 M3 track car
Appreciate 1
mtoosexy183.50

      10-30-2017, 11:39 AM   #35
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
3746
Rep
17,311
Posts

Drives: 2015 SO/CSAT F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax240 View Post
Auto/DCT cars have the electronics in the transmission that control the gear shifts. the driver just selects up/down. so what annoys me is the programming taking over and over-riding what I gear I want.
This is not true of all DCT/AT transmissions. Specifically, it is not true of BMW's DCT transmission used in the M2/M3/M4 and the ZF8 in the new M5.

Quote:
e.g. if I want to use a lot of engine braking, I might down shift very early. or if I want to keep a car stable during a corner, I might hold it past redline.
The transmissions I refer to above allow you to do this. More to the point, they behave exactly like the MT does in those two cases. That is, you can downshift as early as you like, and you can hold the gear at redline and it will soft-bounce on the limiter. Again, identical behavior to the MT.

Quote:
unless you have a race programmed transmission, I'm pretty sure, the car is going to disallow any commands it doesn't like.
You're wrong. But even if you were correct, did you forget that this thread is specifically about a race car? So we are indeed talking about a "race programmed transmission" here.

It's ok though. Now you have the facts and you can go on about your life in a more informed manner. Have a good one.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:58 AM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST