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      12-07-2017, 02:05 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Here's where BMW is at right now: Lots of people didn't like the 2012-2016 F30 suspension, steering, interior materials and what have you. But that wonderful marriage of the N20/26 with the 8AT was a landslide winner. It was the one thing about that car that was universally praised by forum members and the automotive press. It's the combo that really stood out as special against the competition.

So what does BMW do for MY2017? They replace the N20/26 with an engine that is noticeably slower, less responsive, harsher sounding, and more laggy. The so-called standard "Sport AT" snaps off shifts slower than my previous base AT, with shift points that are not as well-calibrated. Is it my imagination? According to CR's tests, the 2017 is 0.6secs slower from 0-60MPH, and 0.7 slower from 45-65MPH than the 2016! For some reason this never gets discussed on this forum, but yes, BMW de-contented the drivetrain of all things. Does it just sting too much for us to think that BMW made the 3-series a slower car?

So to me, it isn't whether BMW deserves to be on a 10 best list, it's whether they have any desire to be.

I am by no means saying current gen BMWs don't drive well and I agree fully about the synergy between motor and transmission. I think the F30, if properly equipped drives very well and in my ripe old age of 40, don't mind a little luxury or tech with my ride. My initial impressions of the new engine were similar to your comments but the 430i really grew on me. I pretty much like them all and I am not one of the 'enthusiasts' who is playing the violins over BMW's recent direction.
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      12-07-2017, 04:05 AM   #90
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I have been in denial for sometime. It's time for me to finally face the fact that the manual transmission is dying. I am sad. To all of you that think this is a good thing your automous car will be waiting for you soon. Soon it will be illegal to drive your own car.

#SaveTheManualTransmission
#SaveTheDriver
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      12-07-2017, 09:12 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by eluded View Post
I have been in denial for sometime. It's time for me to finally face the fact that the manual transmission is dying. I am sad. To all of you that think this is a good thing your automous car will be waiting for you soon. Soon it will be illegal to drive your own car.

#SaveTheManualTransmission
#SaveTheDriver
When exotic sports cars like Ferraris don't come with a true MT, it is already dead.

There are holdouts that still use a flip phone too. Those physical buttons give you a better connection to dialing your phone....
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      12-07-2017, 12:34 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
When exotic sports cars like Ferraris don't come with a true MT, it is already dead.

There are holdouts that still use a flip phone too. Those physical buttons give you a better connection to dialing your phone....
You would probably not be shocked then to hear how many "ANALOG" users held out, my pops being one of them. He was shut down and told to move on. His next "leap" was from the first dual-band Sprint PCS phone...some people just cannot let go.
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That seat was meant to be used, are you going to deny it's purpose in life?
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      12-07-2017, 12:35 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eluded View Post
I have been in denial for sometime. It's time for me to finally face the fact that the manual transmission is dying. I am sad. To all of you that think this is a good thing your automous car will be waiting for you soon. Soon it will be illegal to drive your own car.

#SaveTheManualTransmission
#SaveTheDriver
First step to recovery brother
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Originally Posted by jmg

That seat was meant to be used, are you going to deny it's purpose in life?
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      12-08-2017, 06:50 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eluded View Post
I have been in denial for sometime. It's time for me to finally face the fact that the manual transmission is dying. I am sad. To all of you that think this is a good thing your automous car will be waiting for you soon. Soon it will be illegal to drive your own car.

#SaveTheManualTransmission
#SaveTheDriver
Yes, I can see it now: Nancy Pelosi standing at the House podium to sponsor a new tax on people who drive cars. The money will go to a fund for those who are injured by these holdouts who obviously don't care about the safety of others. Driving will be considered along the same lines as second hand smoke.
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      12-08-2017, 06:51 PM   #95
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The following are some of my thought and opinions on the topic at hand, as to why the F30 3 series is regarded, overall, as not as good as previous 3 series.

There are things that BMW still does well, and they are the reasons why I keep giving BMW another chance.
When I go and test drive the competition I am quickly struck by one thing that is extremely important to me and that BMW gets very right, the sitting position and the ergonomics of driver to controls.

Audi does pretty well as well, and even their lower cost VW products. MB doesn't feel as good to me. NONE of the Japanese cars have the driver to controls ergos that I like. That said, I have not yet had a chance to sit in and test driver the new Kia Stinger or new Hyundai G cars. Some American cars have done a good job, but overall I still love how I feel in a BMW 2 or 3 series.

The sport seats are fantastic, and have excellent adjustments. The steering wheel positions and adjustments are great. The placement of the pedals, trans controls, and view out of the driver's position is very much to my liking, and BMW still does those things very well. I-drive is excellent, and BMW still gives the auto trans driver a very nice trans shifter/control lever, something the Jaguar idiots didn't even bother to create.

The engines offered are fantastic still. I favor the inline-6 because I like how it feels and sounds. The inline-4 is a great engine, but it's courser in operation for my tastes. Still, BMW has great engines.

Both MT and AT's are fantastic and a great job. The MT needs modernization such as a 7th gear, better clutch engagement by improving the clutch stop point, shorter shift lever throws. A 7th gear allows for better acceleration along with better fuel economy, making it more competitive with the AT.

To know what the F30 is missing and what it needs to be loved again by BMW driving enthusiasts, it's simply a matter of driving an E46 or E90 sport pkg equipped 3 series.
It's the steering response and the "feel" at the steering wheel and at the driver's butt that is missing, or just not quite right. There is a distinct vagueness in the steering in both the stand rack and the VSS version.

Having more drive "modes" does not make for a better or more capable suspension, and thus, doesn't make the ride or handling better.
Suspension "modes" is a psychological marketing play at falsely giving the driver a sense of something "better". The buyer is sold a lie that he can have a soft big sedan smooth ride, and then with just a button push he can transform his car into a "sports" car. That, as we know, is far from the truth.

BMW isn't far from correcting the problems with the F30. Address the vague feeling in the steering. Alter, adjust, and/or change the components that translate driver steering input at the steering wheel so that the driver has a better "feel" for how the car is then responding to those inputs. Using the same steering and suspension parts while also offering RFT and non RF tires means that a great compromise is happening. Tires are part of the steering and suspension and it's tuning. RFT vs non alter those areas as they have different attributes.
The sum is the total of all the parts. Change a single part and the sum changes.

The brakes are very good and competent. However, the brake feel has softened with the F30. There is more brake pedal travel in order to get more brake force. That can be easily fixed with stiffer brake lines. In the E46 and E90 when the brake pedal is release it returns to it's neutral position quietly and with nothing noticed. With both of my F30's, releasing the brake pedal results in a noticeable light "thud", which makes it sound cheap and disconnected. It's subtle, but still noticeable.

Wind and tire noise and roar. The F30 is TOO loud. Better seals and better air flow control will result in less "noise" and that gives a sense of quality. It's psychological and important. It's very much like closing a door and it's resulting sound. If the sound is singular with no noticeable reverb like noises, then the car is perceived as having a higher quality, and even just that singular quality primes the driver, and reviewer's, mind about the cars quality even before he fires up the engine.

As or the criticism about interior cosmetics and materials quality, those things become more noticeable and more discussed when the other qualities are not better executed and controlled. If the F30's driving performance were up to the same levels of the previous 3 series, it's more "dated" interior would be much less scrutinized.

All that is just my opinion of course.
Feel free to use my opinions as your own.
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      12-08-2017, 07:11 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
The following are some of my thought and opinions on the topic at hand, as to why the F30 3 series is regarded, overall, as not as good as previous 3 series.

There are things that BMW still does well, and they are the reasons why I keep giving BMW another chance.
When I go and test drive the competition I am quickly struck by one thing that is extremely important to me and that BMW gets very right, the sitting position and the ergonomics of driver to controls.

Audi does pretty well as well, and even their lower cost VW products. MB doesn't feel as good to me. NONE of the Japanese cars have the driver to controls ergos that I like. That said, I have not yet had a chance to sit in and test driver the new Kia Stinger or new Hyundai G cars. Some American cars have done a good job, but overall I still love how I feel in a BMW 2 or 3 series.

The sport seats are fantastic, and have excellent adjustments. The steering wheel positions and adjustments are great. The placement of the pedals, trans controls, and view out of the driver's position is very much to my liking, and BMW still does those things very well. I-drive is excellent, and BMW still gives the auto trans driver a very nice trans shifter/control lever, something the Jaguar idiots didn't even bother to create.

The engines offered are fantastic still. I favor the inline-6 because I like how it feels and sounds. The inline-4 is a great engine, but it's courser in operation for my tastes. Still, BMW has great engines.

Both MT and AT's are fantastic and a great job. The MT needs modernization such as a 7th gear, better clutch engagement by improving the clutch stop point, shorter shift lever throws. A 7th gear allows for better acceleration along with better fuel economy, making it more competitive with the AT.

To know what the F30 is missing and what it needs to be loved again by BMW driving enthusiasts, it's simply a matter of driving an E46 or E90 sport pkg equipped 3 series.
It's the steering response and the "feel" at the steering wheel and at the driver's butt that is missing, or just not quite right. There is a distinct vagueness in the steering in both the stand rack and the VSS version.

Having more drive "modes" does not make for a better or more capable suspension, and thus, doesn't make the ride or handling better.
Suspension "modes" is a psychological marketing play at falsely giving the driver a sense of something "better". The buyer is sold a lie that he can have a soft big sedan smooth ride, and then with just a button push he can transform his car into a "sports" car. That, as we know, is far from the truth.

BMW isn't far from correcting the problems with the F30. Address the vague feeling in the steering. Alter, adjust, and/or change the components that translate driver steering input at the steering wheel so that the driver has a better "feel" for how the car is then responding to those inputs. Using the same steering and suspension parts while also offering RFT and non RF tires means that a great compromise is happening. Tires are part of the steering and suspension and it's tuning. RFT vs non alter those areas as they have different attributes.
The sum is the total of all the parts. Change a single part and the sum changes.

The brakes are very good and competent. However, the brake feel has softened with the F30. There is more brake pedal travel in order to get more brake force. That can be easily fixed with stiffer brake lines. In the E46 and E90 when the brake pedal is release it returns to it's neutral position quietly and with nothing noticed. With both of my F30's, releasing the brake pedal results in a noticeable light "thud", which makes it sound cheap and disconnected. It's subtle, but still noticeable.

Wind and tire noise and roar. The F30 is TOO loud. Better seals and better air flow control will result in less "noise" and that gives a sense of quality. It's psychological and important. It's very much like closing a door and it's resulting sound. If the sound is singular with no noticeable reverb like noises, then the car is perceived as having a higher quality, and even just that singular quality primes the driver, and reviewer's, mind about the cars quality even before he fires up the engine.

As or the criticism about interior cosmetics and materials quality, those things become more noticeable and more discussed when the other qualities are not better executed and controlled. If the F30's driving performance were up to the same levels of the previous 3 series, it's more "dated" interior would be much less scrutinized.

All that is just my opinion of course.
Feel free to use my opinions as your own.
Very well said and I couldn't agree more. If I may sum up your evaluation I would say BMW needs to pay more attention to nuances. I remember a video from CR where the reviewer was evaluating, I believe, the Acura TLX. He said "winning the luxury car wars was a matter of winning battles of nuance," or words to that effect.

I think BMW has glossed over many of the small nuances you pointed out: the loud clapping of the doors upon closure; the numbskull central door lock button; excessive wind/road noise, and, may I add that driving with the sunroof open is just exasperating. Why does my Honda Odyssey's sunroof muffle wind noise so much better than my BMW? It just doesn't need to be that way and I agree totally that these small annoyances really do affect the attitude towards the car's other attributes.
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      12-08-2017, 08:05 PM   #97
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Well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Wind and tire noise and roar. The F30 is TOO loud. Better seals and better air flow control will result in less "noise" and that gives a sense of quality. It's psychological and important. It's very much like closing a door and it's resulting sound. If the sound is singular with no noticeable reverb like noises, then the car is perceived as having a higher quality, and even just that singular quality primes the driver, and reviewer's, mind about the cars quality even before he fires up the engine.

As or the criticism about interior cosmetics and materials quality, those things become more noticeable and more discussed when the other qualities are not better executed and controlled. If the F30's driving performance were up to the same levels of the previous 3 series, it's more "dated" interior would be much less scrutinized.
Having just switched to Audi I would say that the interior of my S5 Sportback is more comparable to an F80/F82 with leather package than the 2014 435i xDrive coupe I was driving. And the same can be said of the quality of the suspension/tires, which is a real problem with the F30/F32 if you prefer AWD.

And I would double down on the comments about noise. If BMW wants us to buy into a tradeoff of sporty feel for luxury they should produce a luxury car.

On the other hand I concur regarding BMW's drivetrains and ergonomics, and look forward to testing iterations of the G20 platform. But in my most recent purchasing decision BMW wasn't even close. And it bothers me that they fell this far behind.
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      12-08-2017, 10:20 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by xantdieselx View Post
For me it is. I like both the Camaro and the Mustang, especially the exterior styling, but the single biggest reason I would never buy one is the interior. So your reasoning is just like everyone else's...based on opinion.
Well of course its opinion..
but the reason the BMW(esp 3) is still top dog is cause the majority has that opinion/preference
its still the best overall when its all added up
The 3 is top dog? Really?? Sales of the 3 are down over 15% this year and have decreased every year since the 2014...how's that for opinion?
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      12-09-2017, 07:40 AM   #99
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November 2017 data from the same data source you used, Xant:

Merc C-class (which would be coupes and sedans so the other two brands need to be combined, too): 6,001
Audi A4/S4/A5/S5/A4 Allroad: 4933
BMW 3 and 4: 8,957

Certainly not disputing dropping sales, but the 3 and 4 are near the end of a model run and you only posted one third of the relevant German car data. That happens to EVERY car as it nears a model change. BMW still has some room until it actually loses the sales crown in this model segment to either of the other two major German brands. In 2016, Audi and Merc combined only sold 16287 more cars in this segment than BMW did by themselves with the 3 and 4. That math is more Audi's fault than Merc's. Audi should do much better this year, I'd think, since 2016 was end-of-model for the A4 and A5.
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      12-09-2017, 08:23 AM   #100
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Audi should do much better...

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Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
Audi should do much better this year, I'd think, since 2016 was end-of-model for the A4 and A5.
Anecdotally (at this point) the A5/S5 Sportback's introduction in North America has successfully parried the Gran Coupe, which of course accounts for BMW's surprisingly robust 4 series increases.
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      12-09-2017, 04:58 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by xantdieselx View Post
The 3 is top dog? Really?? Sales of the 3 are down over 15% this year and have decreased every year since the 2014...how's that for opinion?
A downtrend doesnt mean the 3 isnt still top dog
it just means theres more competition and its losing some marketshare
dont mistaken a trend with stature..so yer conclusion is yer opinion
cause the 3 is still top dog
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      12-09-2017, 05:50 PM   #102
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I don't know about top dog or not, but sedan sales in general for most brands/models are down due primarily to the continued sales growth of CUV's and SUV's.
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      12-15-2017, 11:55 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantdieselx View Post
The 3 is top dog? Really?? Sales of the 3 are down over 15% this year and have decreased every year since the 2014...how's that for opinion?
A downtrend doesnt mean the 3 isnt still top dog
it just means theres more competition and its losing some marketshare
dont mistaken a trend with stature..so yer conclusion is yer opinion
cause the 3 is still top dog
Someone's feelings got hurt. Sometimes the truth will do it to you.
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      12-17-2017, 08:27 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by xantdieselx View Post
Someone's feelings got hurt. Sometimes the truth will do it to you.
Essentially, you've no idea what yer talking about
because you cant tell the difference between a trend and placement
it doesnt take much effort in looking at figures to know the 3 is atop its segment

Based on your reply tho, maybe you should go back to kindgergarten because you are starting to communicate like an immature little child..
and clearly out of touch

Last edited by insanecoder; 12-17-2017 at 08:58 AM.
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