[NealfromNZ]

Thanks Bill. I believe the 6.5s are glued in so will probably put of the shelf and return everything to stock when I sell the M3 in the future.

I was considering these at for mids. But Morel car audio sized tweeters are quite premium. By the time I pay for postage down under it doesn’t quite stack up.


https://www.parts-express.com/Morel-MSW-114-Shallow-Classic-Series-4-DPC-Cone-Woofer-Midrange-4-Ohms-297-002?quantity=1

[Billfitz]

The 6.5s are probably glued in but they can be removed. Or you can get new boxes on AliExpress. Those Morel are nice enough, but twice the price I'd pay for any four inch. The Q is also too low for best results in a car door. I would think you'd find a source closer to home for the Tymphany Peerless. I got a pair of these tweeters for my rear doors, they're also widely distributed: https://www.amazon.com/JBL-GTO19T-Pr...00881CT1Q?th=1

[Julian2]

I installed a Match Up 10 and the ESX VXB8.3C speaker set in my F31 last week.
I was adjusting the crossover from the underseat woofer and my subwoofer in the trunk and then tested the sound.
When the volume was turned up to about 60-70% on the iDrive the music started to cut out. Weirdly only the bass was still playing. After 1-2 sec the sound came back, cut out again and came back. This happens until I lower the volume. I watched the speaker output level in the software for several channels and they weren't red or close to max. I then thought it could be a power issue so I turned off the underseat woofers, and the front and rear doors. I only let the rear roof and the center speaker play. The music still cut out over a certain volume.
The input signal is coming from the SDMI25. Since the underseat woofers are still playing, this doesn't seem to be the problem.
Has anyone experienced such a problem or knows a solution?

[Billfitz]

Cutting out at high volume is usually caused by speaker impedance being too low, triggering the current protection circuitry.

[Julian2]

The door speakers are 4 Ohms and the Underseat Woofers are 2 Ohms. That's what the Match Up 10 can handle.
The underseat woofers don't seem to be the problem, since they keep playing but the other speakers stop. Even the ones that I didn't upgrade.
I disabled the output on the exchanged door speakers and even on the stock rear door speakers. The same thing is happening. The center and rear roof speakers that were still playing are OEM Harman Kardon.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Julian2

I installed a Match Up 10 and the ESX VXB8.3C speaker set in my F31 last week.
I was adjusting the crossover from the underseat woofer and my subwoofer in the trunk and then tested the sound.
When the volume was turned up to about 60-70% on the iDrive the music started to cut out. Weirdly only the bass was still playing. After 1-2 sec the sound came back, cut out again and came back. This happens until I lower the volume. I watched the speaker output level in the software for several channels and they weren't red or close to max. I then thought it could be a power issue so I turned off the underseat woofers, and the front and rear doors. I only let the rear roof and the center speaker play. The music still cut out over a certain volume.
The input signal is coming from the SDMI25. Since the underseat woofers are still playing, this doesn't seem to be the problem.
Has anyone experienced such a problem or knows a solution?

Not sure what to tell you other than verify all of the settings in the DSP software (and the harness connections to/from the amp) as I did not experience what you are describing during my install. After that, my only guess is the actual EQ tune itself of the different channels in your system. However, I do know that if I turn the volume up past the 75-80% mark (while I was actually tuning), I will get noticeable distortion/clipping starting to come from the speakers, which is not that uncommon from just about any system at that level...

[NealfromNZ]

Check a couple of things

The voltage available in the car

• Does the system cut out with engine running ( alternator running system )
• Measure the voltage across the battery or engine bay terminals , is it at least 12.8 volts indicating that battery is holding charge.

Match amp install

Power cable

• What gauge cable are you running to the match amplifier ?
• Is it at least 8 gauge if not 6 gauge
• Are all the connection points between battery and the amp clean and well connected
• Is the inline fuse connection well terminated
• If you aren’t doing above and just using Factory power input it won’t provide enough current to run the match past a certain volume point

Earth cable

• Do you have a clean connection between amp and ground cable
• Is the ground cable is a good gauge size ( at least 8 gauge if not 6 )
• Is the earth point for the amp on the bmw chassis clean and clear of paint

[Julian2]

Thanks for the replies. I checked everything and found no issues with the cables. I also completely unplugged the power connection and plugged it back in but it didn't help.
How would a sound setup cause music to cut out? But just the mid/highs and not the subwoofer.

The engine was on while testing. Bimmerlink showed me 14,X Volt and the charge level of the battery was 72%. The DSP PC-Tool Software also showed me 14V+ constantly. When the cut out happened there was no dip to be seen. The temperature of the Match was also fine at about 28°C.

I am running a 10mm² OFC cable to the Match. This is about 7 Gauge converted.
The connection points at the battery terminal, and the fuse are all clean and good.

The ground is connected at a clean and unpainted earth point that is also used to ground the 12V socket in the trunk. It is also 10mm², the same as my power cable.
However, I don't think it's a power problem. If it was, muting the subwoofer channels and only playing half the speakers would solve it, since the woofer channels have the most power. I would also see a voltage dip in the software.

[johnung]

Removing a glued in under seat subwoofer from the BMW plastic sub box… I learned this tip from Bryan at Kies Motorsports.
Just remove the sub boxes containing the subwoofers and place them in the freezer for 1-2 hours. The glue turns from sticky to brittle. Then take plastic trim tools and pry around the edges of the sub to pop it out.

Note that the sub boxes are the same in the F30. They hold both 6.5” subs (in a base audio system) and 8” subs (in the HiFi and Harman Kardon systems). So a base audio system can upgrade to an 8” sub while using their stock sub boxes.

Hope this helps!

[NealfromNZ]

Originally Posted by Julian2

Thanks for the replies. I checked everything and found no issues with the cables. I also completely unplugged the power connection and plugged it back in but it didn't help.
How would a sound setup cause music to cut out? But just the mid/highs and not the subwoofer.

The engine was on while testing. Bimmerlink showed me 14,X Volt and the charge level of the battery was 72%. The DSP PC-Tool Software also showed me 14V+ constantly. When the cut out happened there was no dip to be seen. The temperature of the Match was also fine at about 28°C.

I am running a 10mm² OFC cable to the Match. This is about 7 Gauge converted.
The connection points at the battery terminal, and the fuse are all clean and good.

The ground is connected at a clean and unpainted earth point that is also used to ground the 12V socket in the trunk. It is also 10mm², the same as my power cable.
However, I don't think it's a power problem. If it was, muting the subwoofer channels and only playing half the speakers would solve it, since the woofer channels have the most power. I would also see a voltage dip in the software.

You’ve covered this off well.

As for the subwoofer verse mids I’m guessing that in the amplifier design the amp has two sections within its design. One for the 75 rms section and one for 2 bass channels.

It really sounds like a self protection mechanism activating on the mids section. These are typically where the power supply becomes overloaded and either has heat protection or over current protection kick in.

Heat protection is normally obviously as the amp will run hot and is normally due to running system at continuous high volume where the amp can’t dissipate the heat. Easy to check for as I’m guessing that the match amps would only get warm due to circuit design ( not class A/B so more thermally efficient )

Troubleshooting

Touch amp and see how hot it’s getting, double check installation for airflow with the way you’ve routed your cables etc. The amp is close to the left bmw vent with wil have airflow in the area when the cabin climate control is on.

Next is over current protection kicking in.
This can be caused by a number of areas.

One of the amp channels going faulty and causing protection to kick in.
There is a short in one of your speaker wires.
The speakers are running too lower impedance for amp design ( eg dropping below 3 ohms )
A speaker is going faulty and causing a short
There is an issue with the connections at the amp speaker connector causing a short or similar.

What Id suggest you do is test and listen to each speaker . On your dsp mute all mid / tweeter channels and unmute one speaker at a time checking each one.If each individual speaker checks out ok then test a pair at a time and see if amp cuts out. If not then mute all and add one speaker at a time to see at what point the amp protection kicks in.

[Julian2]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

You’ve covered this off well.
It really sounds like a self protection mechanism activating on the mids section. These are typically where the power supply becomes overloaded and either has heat protection or over current protection kick in.

Heat protection is normally obviously as the amp will run hot and is normally due to running system at continuous high volume where the amp can’t dissipate the heat. Easy to check for as I’m guessing that the match amps would only get warm due to circuit design ( not class A/B so more thermally efficient )

Troubleshooting

Touch amp and see how hot it’s getting, double check installation for airflow with the way you’ve routed your cables etc. The amp is close to the left bmw vent with wil have airflow in the area when the cabin climate control is on.

Next is over current protection kicking in.
This can be caused by a number of areas.

One of the amp channels going faulty and causing protection to kick in.
There is a short in one of your speaker wires.
The speakers are running too lower impedance for amp design ( eg dropping below 3 ohms )
A speaker is going faulty and causing a short
There is an issue with the connections at the amp speaker connector causing a short or similar.

What Id suggest you do is test and listen to each speaker . On your dsp mute all mid / tweeter channels and unmute one speaker at a time checking each one.If each individual speaker checks out ok then test a pair at a time and see if amp cuts out. If not then mute all and add one speaker at a time to see at what point the amp protection kicks in.

Heat protection definitely didn't kick in. As I said it had 28°C and was not warm when I touched it. The amp for my subwoofer in the trunk had more temperature.

I will check each channel as you said. If this doesn't give me any results, it has to be a combination of speakers. I then would try disabling each channel pair ( door front, door rear and the roof speakers).
If I find a channel that is causing the issue, I will measure the impedance. There shouldn't be anything wrong but who knows...
If this doesn't get me any closer to solving the issue I will directly call Audiotec Fischer. They might have some advice for me. But before I do that I want to narrow it down as much as possible.
One more thing I tried was to lower the bluetooth audio volume on my phone. I then was able to turn up the volume by more than 65% without it cutting out.

[Julian2]

I have an update.
I checked each individual channel. Every channel was good with the exception of the trunk roof speakers. They kept dropping out.
After I verified this issue with both of them, I simply disabled them in the software.
Now everything is working fine. I tried to adjust the eq but this only raised the possible volume by a bit.
My multimeter showed me 2,1Ohms for each of the speakers. So much for the 4 Ohm the Match wants...
In my opinion these speakers don't add much value for me anyways. They sound very harsh and tinny, even after using RTA.
Keep in mind that these speakers are not the regular round ones found in the F30. The F31 has rectangular speakers in the roof.

[NealfromNZ]

Good that you’re worried out the issue. I’d say thise rear speakers would only be adding some rear fill , but the rear doors will be doing the same.

You could use the spare channels and run active tweeters on your front stage. Does mean running extra speaker wires, but you’d get better time alignment on the front stsge . The drivers side tweeter especially.

[Julian2]

As you said, the additional sound from the roof speakers is not that noticeable.
Since they don't sound great, most likely due to their form factor, it's not really a loss in sound quality from the driver's seat.
The rear door speakers do enough to not make me miss them.
Sure, a full active front system would be possible with the two now free channels but I don't think it's worth the effort. I am happy with how it sounds currently.

[Jag325i]

Jmciver any more updates on your build over the winter break? Hows the tuning with the added trunk sub?

I’m planning an install for my F30 with HK system (UK) and its clear you’ve gone through all the trials and tribulations for this format already. This thread has been very useful so thank-you.

So far I have picked up
Match Up 10
Match Harness
Helix Sdmi 25
10” Audison APBX10 (active)
To buy - Audiotech Fischer Conductor remote & Underseat subs.

I’ve been mulling over on the underseats over the last few weeks but have also come to a decision on the Audisons (2ohm) For the boot sub I’ve got an Audison APBX10AS2, 400w RMS. I liked the form factor and the ability to remove easily when necessary.

[mikejacobs]

Excellent thread

I originally planned to use the Techniq harness and just add a subwoofer but I am somewhat of an audio addict so decided to add some of the other equipment I had in a previous build

I have purchased the UP10DSP
I have already changed my door speakers to Audiofrog 4" midrange and 1" tweeters and Match under-seat subwoofers
I have installed a Gladen RC1200 monoblock powering a Ground Zero 12" subwoofer in a custom birch enclosure

I have searched the Audiotech website and can only find a very basic setup file, my installer is 5 hours away so if anyone could help me with a setup file that I could then tweak for my setup that would be most helpful

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Jag325i

Jmciver any more updates on your build over the winter break? Hows the tuning with the added trunk sub?

I’m planning an install for my F30 with HK system (UK) and its clear you’ve gone through all the trials and tribulations for this format already. This thread has been very useful so thank-you.

So far I have picked up
Match Up 10
Match Harness
Helix Sdmi 25
10” Audison APBX10 (active)
To buy - Audiotech Fischer Conductor remote & Underseat subs.

I’ve been mulling over on the underseats over the last few weeks but have also come to a decision on the Audisons (2ohm) For the boot sub I’ve got an Audison APBX10AS2, 400w RMS. I liked the form factor and the ability to remove easily when necessary.

Just waiting on the trunk sub enclosure to come in, which is not anticipated until the middle of Jan unfortunately . I also wanted to experiment with a different set of front speakers and decided to replace my front door speakers with a set by Match. I wanted to have better tweeters (with an actual crossover network instead of the simple capacitor that comes with the BimmerTech Alpha Ones I currently have installed).

Otherwise I am ready to start tuning again, and can’t wait to hear the system with the trunk sub and new front speakers.

Originally Posted by mikejacobs

Excellent thread

I originally planned to use the Techniq harness and just add a subwoofer but I am somewhat of an audio addict so decided to add some of the other equipment I had in a previous build

I have purchased the UP10DSP
I have already changed my door speakers to Audiofrog 4" midrange and 1" tweeters and Match under-seat subwoofers
I have installed a Gladen RC1200 monoblock powering a Ground Zero 12" subwoofer in a custom birch enclosure

I have searched the Audiotech website and can only find a very basic setup file, my installer is 5 hours away so if anyone could help me with a setup file that I could then tweak for my setup that would be most helpful

I have posted three of my tune files in this thread. They should be a better starting point than what AF currently provides (which is merely basic signal routing setup).

[phc77]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

Good that you’re worried out the issue. I’d say thise rear speakers would only be adding some rear fill , but the rear doors will be doing the same.

You could use the spare channels and run active tweeters on your front stage. Does mean running extra speaker wires, but you’d get better time alignment on the front stsge . The drivers side tweeter especially.

That's exactly what I want to do in my G22 with HK. Add wires and switch to active filtering on front stage. But, I can't remove the rear channels, especially because I want to keep all the assistance with parking distance control. So, in my config, I think about replace the MATCH UP 10DSP by HELIX V TWELVE DSP.

Thank you for sharing this very good job, very complete and very successful thread.

[jmciver]

I was doing a bit of research for another potential project and came across this while looking up some wiring diagram info. It is the basic specs for the stock speakers found in F3x/F8x cars with either the HK (Top HiFi) system or HiFi system (from the factory BMW maintenance procedures). I am sure this info has been posted somewhere on the net, but I never came across it during my research for this project. But I figured it would be relevant to this discussion as more people look into integrating aftermarket amps like the UP10DSP.

[Billfitz]

Where the speaker power ratings are concerned they can be very deceiving. Power density drops by half with every octave increase in frequency. On average in a 100w system the woofer receives 75w, the midrange 20w and the tweeter 5w. Power in general is also very deceiving, as loudness is logarithmic with respect to power. That means for a system to sound twice as loud as 100w it won't be 200w, it will be 1,000w.

[NealfromNZ]

Bills spot on with his post. I remember ready that top hifi will run to 110db , hifi 98 db remember and base audio ( uk market ) was around 96 db. These maximum figures are all in the bass frequencies with the 110 db measured at 40 hz on top hifi with 125 watts on bass duties.

In my previous system ( e46 ) with 100 rms x 4 on 5.25 components maxed out a bit over 100 db ( at 68 hz ) and the sub ( 13 inch sub and Xmax of 22 mm ) with 600 rms was low 130s ( 30 hz ) with cabin gain. For normal listening levels the amps had considerable headroom and had plenty of power for music transits without getting into amp clipping or running out of mechanical travel on the speakers which both lead to adding extra distortion.

With my f80 build I’m not expecting as much volume from the door midbass due to size of the 100 mm drivers and the limitations they have.

I currently have bass audio ( Uk spec F80 )which on the plus side is easier to upgrade due to limited number of speakers. I don’t have to concern myself with Centre or Parcel shelf speakers.

However, there are limitations for increasing power to mid basses ( BMW speaker wire at 0.75mm ) is roughly 18 gauge so at 4 ohms it starts to choke the power levels above 120 watt peaks .

This is fine for all factory BMW audio options , but it changing out mid bass speakers and amps to say GB40s , Morel Hybrids a with 100 watt plus amps then power loss will occur in the wiring . Running new speaker wire can help but then there’s the MQS pin connectors are rated for a max of 7.5 amps of current. Basically the door options are limited to roughly 130 watts at 4 ohms

The BMW wire gauge to the underset wonders however is a reasonable gauge even for running 2 ohm at 100 watts plus. ( must do some calculations)

For my front stage I’m going Active ( new mid bass and tweeter dedicated amp per speaker ) and will add 16 gauge wiring for the mid bass, some new pins into the door connector. I did look at 14 gauge , but no point due to the MQS connector pin limitation.

Amp options will be a bit over 100 watts which is more than will be needed but should give clean power.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

the sub with 600 rms was low 130s with cabin gain.

Where subs are concerned cabin gain is key. It's what's responsible for the silly numbers seen in dB competitions. In half-space, which is when the sub is outdoors on the ground away from buildings, a sub with 90dB/watt sensitivity would require 10,000 watts to reach 130dB. 600 watts would only give you 118dB. The good news where cars are concerned is that thanks to cabin gain you don't need massive power to go louder than you should.

The BMW wire gauge to the underseat woofers however is a reasonable gauge even for running 2 ohm at 100 watts plus

I haven't bothered to check the gauge on mine, but I wouldn't overdo it. The H-K woofers are 8 ohms, and there's only one logical reason for that: if they were 4 ohms the wiring would be taxed. Rather than have to use a different wiring harness for the higher power H-K amp they would have realized the added power by increasing the amp voltage output into the higher impedance load, which keeps the current level within the capacity of the wiring.