[boltjames]

Originally Posted by jbass524

I'm the guy who said to buy an E36 and customize it to your needs. It's the perfect BMW if that means light, nimble, and raw. Mine is a track-only car.

I ironically, I just bought an F30 yesterday. I bought the base with leather. Sport seats, BMW wheels and m-sport is pointless for me as I want better than what BMW offers. After a little suspension w/ added camber, wheels and tires, and a tune, the F30 will be a lot like the BMW of yore but with some luxury bits that I do like. This makes sense to me.

I think someone said something about customized BMWs for everyone. This is the exact customization I want. It will be a car that is economical, nimble, powerful, luxurious, and can probably go sub 2:00 at Sears Point while being a phenomenal daily driver. Perfect!

Well done.

BJ

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

Nice, now I know I know I've won the discussion when the personal insults fly.

Yes, congratulations! You win! Here's a cookie..

[jmsent]

Originally Posted by JamesMA

I am sure that there are people who are disappointed with the retro look of the newest interaction of the Ford Mustang as well. As for me, I am going to buy one of those too in a few years.

Then you'll be buying a used one. Ford has already announced that the next generation won't be "retro". Yup, they're kicking the boomers to the curb.

[boltjames]

Originally Posted by cardnation

I see merit in both sides of the argument. I'm going to stir the pot a little and leave this here to illustrate how far we've come in the last 22 years. This is my 91 E30 next to my wife's MKV Jetta, which in turn is dwarfed by the F20 328.

Nice photo. Illustrates the point quite clearly that times have changed. What once was a small, economical, shy import trying to find its way in the American marketplace has now become the 500 pound gorilla, the dominant player in its class.

It boils down to whether or not you believe that:

a. BMW has built a smaller version of the 3 Series to satisfy that niche in the 1 Series.

b. BMW has laden the F30 with enough customization to satisfy the sporty needs of those who also require more space.

But either way, you're either a 1 guy or a 3 guy or you take your toys and go play in another sandbox.

BJ

[batislav]

I don't know about dwarfed.

The Jetta is 2.7 inches smaller in length and 1.2 inches smaller in width.

Haven't heard anyone say their f30 is dwarfed by the A4/S4 (similar difference in size).

[verbs]

Originally Posted by boltjames

I drive an ///M328i, the perfect blend of sport and luxury. The ///M logo on the trunklid makes Mr. & Mrs. Camry think I'm driving a special edition and it gets me tons of street cred from other BMW drivers and driving enthusiasts.

BJ

I personally don't think that justifies adding an M badge to the back of the car. As someone who used to drive an E60 M5, I'd laugh anytime I saw M badges on peoples' cars. Adding a few M aesthetic components does not make an M car.

The M brand has already been diluted IMO, I think people throwing badges on their non-M cars just makes it worse. Just my $.02

And for what it's worth I did order a 2013 M-sport 335.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

My dealer has 2 VO 1Ms and a white one fwiw.

Cheers
Robin

Yes, BMW continued to make the 1M for the Euro market, but gave the US/NA market a limited number and the stopped.
BMW said that they would build more if there was demand.

I don't know, maybe demand stopped or slowed dramatically in the US after all the initial allocation was sold?
BMW paid for US certification, one would think they would want to maximize return on investment, especially since BMW said they have the capacity to make more if demand was there.

There are used 1M's in the market, but from what I read on the 1 forum, used 1M's are still selling for near new MSRP or not much lower.
Dealers marking them up when new didn't help. That can happen when a very limited number of cars is offered. Some US dealers didn't even get one 1M.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I understand what you are saying, personally I can't grasp that test drives don't sort this sort of issue out.

For me, I take the same driving route for any test drive. It gives a baseline you don't get with ramdom drives. I cover about 80 miles on every kind of road, terrain and surface I'm likely to encounter in my driving. Try any modes/options available on the demo car and make an assessment on that basis. Ignore trim levels, as that is all so personal and I wouldn't dream of judging it in a negative way because the model (say the Modern Line) is not to my taste. Simple, I wouldn't choose it, but some may love it to bits and desire it with the same feelings as someone else would a Sport Line.

I want to try Comfort, ECO mode, etc., that is where IMO, BMW scored and added the ace card. We can choose our mode. We carry Grandma or the sleeping Grandsons, we can cruise along in comfort mode. Out for a solo drive down the Glens, we have a mode to suit our mood. I love the options, simply at the touch of a switch. WELL DONE BMW, at last a car for all moods, in one package. Just spec' it correctly, to get all we need as a driver.

I feel as a long term owner and driver of BMW, I ought to write to BMW and commend them on doing such a fine job, and giving this BMW enthusiast and loyal customer exactly the options I desire and can specify in my BMW.

Again, WELL DONE BMW ... my taking part in customer surveys has been listened to.


HighlandPete

Exactly. It's about choice.

This time BMW created a different marketing approach to try and appeal to different tastes.

Before the "line", BMW offered a 3 series available in 2 main versions distinguished by their engines size and/or output.
From there the customer added the options that appealed to them.
If they wanted a softer ride, then don't add the sport suspension or sport package.
If one wanted firmer ride, better handling control, then add the sport package.

Basically, it's still the same except that the "lines" attempt to create a broader range. So instead of one base 3 series, you can now choose 1 "base" model and 2 "base" variant models, luxury and modern.
Those 3 lines are mechanically the same, respective to 328 or 335.
The "base" 3 comes standard with 17" wheels, and has a different steering wheel.
Cosmetic variance is the appeal here.

The sport and Msport lines are basically the same mechanically as well. The Msport having a different steering wheel, and standard staggered wheel/tire size. Again, cosmetics makes the difference between the two.

This is something we all know. I point it out to illustrate that BMW is attempting to broaden the appeal by taking the same 2 versions of 3 series, and creating a perception that there are 5 different 3 series automobiles.
The suburban professional can feel different and special by having a "luxury" or "modern" 3 series. The enthusiast can feel special by choosing a sport line or Msport.
So far it's working great for BMW.

I want to clear up that I wasn't "judging" a luxury or modern line.
For me, I wouldn't choose it. Also, I don't see them as appealing to those who want the best driving/handling 3 series, simple because that's not the intent by design.
I know that in the US/NA market, non sport 3 series are the majority of what BMW sells.
That's great.
I'm happy that BMW still knows where they came from, and offer a more driver oriented 3 series.

It's interesting that when BMW sends a 3 to be reviewed and tested, they typically send a sport version, even though they know most of the cars won't have that set up.
But then, nearly all auto magazines lean towards driving and automotive enthusiasts.
That's why we see so many issues including Ferrrri's, Porsche's, Corvette's, etc..., when most vehicles sold to the general public are family sedans and trucks.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by 328inGE

Well said RPM90.

BJ makes some legitimate points but the over-the-top judgement against enthusiasts is BS. There may be a small percentage of hardcore enthusiasts out there but I would bet there are quite a large percentage of 3 series owners who choose BMW because of the driving dynamics and not just for tech, luxury or status. Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, etc all offer those amenities as good if not better, however, BMW still tops then in sales. Why is that?

I personally like the F30 because its like a modern E39 at 3 series pricing. If they would make a slightly more aggressive version (i.e., 328is or 335is) then I think it would be perfect. I do believe BMW will release a smaller 2 series sedan that will make the enthusiasts who miss the old E36 or E46 happy, as long as they nail the styling.

I also think with the 2 series BMW will have no need to make the 3 series any larger. Its equally sized to its competitors now, so it no longer has that negative against it when compared to the others. BMW did well with this one, and it will only get better with updates.

Thanks.

Yes, it is the WAY over the top generalizations.

A 2 series sedan would be a valid option.
The A3 sedan, and the new ATS will be interesting to see how they perform and now they sell.

A 1 series is not really an option for many people who may need 4 doors occasionally. The 1 may offer many aspects that some want, but it's a coupe, not comparable to a sedan and it's added utility.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by 328inGE

I noticed a coworkers A4 has the same Pirelli Cinturato tires as my 328i sport. I haven't researched the A4 or Mercedes tire lineup but I wonder if BMW's competitor's tire choices that may have more to do with the choice than strictly MPG?

There are still a very limited number of RFT's in the market.
The limited competition and low volume is also why they cost so much.
If they keep improving them and more manufacturers switch to RFT's, then we'll see better and better performance and comfort from them, and eventually reasonable prices.

It's a good question why BMW choose these tires.
The tires they put on some sport lines seems haphazard.

Do you have the 19" wheel/tire option?

The Cinturato is an "ultra high performance" summer tire.
But, most early sport lines, especially the 328i's in professional reviews, ran with the standard 18" wheels/tires.
They tires the got were the Goodyear Efficient Grip.
Those tires are "grand touring" summer tires, which is not a performance tire.

The A4 has tested pretty well with that tire. It is a UHP tire, so it should perform well.
It doesn't make sense that BMW would put grand touring type tires on a sport line, unless they wanted to maximize MPG. The Goodyears are a low rolling resistance tire, which helps with MPG. But they're not what you would want for best performance.

BMW has the Bridgestone S001 "max performance" summer tire, the Cinturato, and the Goodyear.

I'll bet Msports will get either the Bridgestone or Cinturato, but not likely to get the Goodyears.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by cardnation

I see merit in both sides of the argument. I'm going to stir the pot a little and leave this here to illustrate how far we've come in the last 22 years. This is my 91 E30 next to my wife's MKV Jetta, which in turn is dwarfed by the F20 328.

And dwarfed even more by the Jetta's rear end being about 6 feet closer to the camera lens, which exaggerates size the closer it gets.

Line them up even for a better comparison.
Your point is well taken though. Even lined up the Jetta is bigger.

[cardnation]

Originally Posted by RPM90

And dwarfed even more by the Jetta's rear end being about 6 feet closer to the camera lens, which exaggerates size the closer it gets.

Line them up even for a better comparison.
Your point is well taken though. Even lined up the Jetta is bigger.

LOL, yeah my wife parks like a 15 year old girl whom just got a driving permit.

Like I said I see merit in both sides.

On one hand I wonder when the 3 cars will stop growing.

On the other hand much of the reason we waited for the F30 rather than grabbing an F90 is the larger rear seat and the doors that open to nearly a right angle. (easy to get car seats in and out)

JC

P.S. - I'll be sure to snap a pic of all three, when the F30 arrives.

[norMcal]

I guess the increase in size in cars over the last 30 years, is proportionate with the increase in portions we are served. What used to be a large soda at a fast food restaurant is now a small, same with the fries and burgers.................Super-size me!

It's not healthy, it is unnecessary to eat that much, yet we do it anyway.

[BMWinGE]

Originally Posted by RPM90

It's a good question why BMW choose these tires.
The tires they put on some sport lines seems haphazard.

Do you have the 19" wheel/tire option?

The Cinturato is an "ultra high performance" summer tire.
But, most early sport lines, especially the 328i's in professional reviews, ran with the standard 18" wheels/tires.
They tires the got were the Goodyear Efficient Grip.
Those tires are "grand touring" summer tires, which is not a performance tire.

The A4 has tested pretty well with that tire. It is a UHP tire, so it should perform well.
It doesn't make sense that BMW would put grand touring type tires on a sport line, unless they wanted to maximize MPG. The Goodyears are a low rolling resistance tire, which helps with MPG. But they're not what you would want for best performance.

I have the 18" sport line wheels with the cinturato tires. I received my car in Feb, so no idea how ended up with those versus the goodyears. Guess Im glad I did.

[norMcal]

Sorry for bringing a 2 year old thread back, but I feel somewhat vindicated. BMW wised up and made an enthusiasts car again, the M235. The fact that it has replaced the 3-series on the 10 Best cars list proves that I wasn't wrong in my thinking. Thanks BMW and please don't stop there, make the M2 even better, that is what I am ultimately waiting for.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Sorry for bringing a 2 year old thread back, but I feel somewhat vindicated. BMW wised up and made an enthusiasts car again, the M235. The fact that it has replaced the 3-series on the 10 Best cars list proves that I wasn't wrong in my thinking. Thanks BMW and please don't stop there, make the M2 even better, that is what I am ultimately waiting for.

Isn't the M235i just a natural progression from the M135i, which is a natural progression from the previous 1-series, with models like the 135i and 1-series M coupe?

Don't understand where the vindication comes in, or any relationship to the 3-series. Just perceptions or opinion of what is a better car. User choice I'd say, and that is what BMW are good at.

HighlandPete

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Isn't the M235i just a natural progression from the M135i, which is a natural progression from the previous 1-series, with models like the 135i and 1-series M coupe?

Don't understand where the vindication comes in, or any relationship to the 3-series. Just perceptions or opinion of what is a better car. User choice I'd say, and that is what BMW are good at.

HighlandPete

I suppose you would have to read through a lot of the thread to understand.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by norMcal

I suppose you would have to read through a lot of the thread to understand.

I have reread some of it and did share in the discussion early on. Hasn't it really just been a case of patiently waiting for BMW to extend their model line up.

I sense some of the frustration has been BMW NA marketing policy, rather than what BMW actually have been making, as markets like the UK have had plenty of 1-series offerings, while the latest 1 & 2-series have been coming to market.

HighlandPete

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I have reread some of it and did share in the discussion early on. Hasn't it really just been a case of patiently waiting for BMW to extend their model line up.

I sense some of the frustration has been BMW NA marketing policy, rather than what BMW actually have been making, as markets like the UK have had plenty of 1-series offerings, while the latest 1 & 2-series have been coming to market.

HighlandPete

If you read some of the comments by "Boltjames", you will understand what I am talking about.

Yes, to some extend you are correct. BMW does offer better choices on your side of the Atlantic, so it may not have been as much of an issue in the UK.
Never the less, the M3/M4 (although awesome cars) are a far cry from what some of us want. I think that will be demonstrated when the M2 arrives. I am patiently waiting for that car.