[Tiago@VRSF]

These are nothing but overpriced piggy backs, no different than what BMS is offering.

From that Hartge email it sounded like it was almost identical to the BMS with the exception of boost manipulation.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

These are nothing but overpriced piggy backs, no different than what BMS is offering.

From that Hartge email it sounded like it was almost identical to the BMS with the exception of boost manipulation.

The schematics for the plug-n-play are completely different. The Hartge, etc. boxes plug into the injectors to manipulate main injection time without increasing CR pressure. The BMS product does not do that.

Edit: Wow, that's funny, you live like five miles from me!

[Tiago@VRSF]

I'm not sure if BMS has the CPS offsetting figured out with the N20 platform yet, but on the N54/N55 platforms they manipulate ignition timing using the same method. The wiring may be different but the end result isn't changed.

You're definitely going to have higher gains from a tune that raises boost over a tune that relies only on more aggressive ignition/afr timing.

I'm curious if the reason it's less likely to throw a tune code is because the tune isn't manipulating boost levels which might make sense.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

I'm not sure if BMS has the CPS offsetting figured out with the N20 platform yet, but on the N54/N55 platforms they manipulate ignition timing using the same method.

I didn't know that...interesting.

The wiring may be different but the end result isn't changed. You're definitely going to have higher gains from a tune that raises boost over a tune that relies only on more aggressive ignition/afr timing.

Yes, but I'm interested more in protecting my engine and not voiding my warranty than I am with attaining maximum output. For me, that's the primary end result--a safe(r) source of extra power.

I'm curious if the reason it's less likely to throw a tune code is because the tune isn't manipulating boost levels which might make sense.

That's my thinking.

[Tiago@VRSF]

I should have re-worded that. You're going to safely make more power by adding a couple PSI of boost rather than running more aggressive ignition timing.

If you advance ignition too much you're going to get pre-detonation which over a prolonged period of time will blow a motor. This becomes more and more prominent as IAT's rise which is why it's recommended to run a good intercooler to keep temps as low and consistent as possible.

[Sherhart]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

You're definitely going to have higher gains from a tune that raises boost over a tune that relies only on more aggressive ignition/afr timing.

I was going to call you on this before you clarified in a later comment. Anyone who has tuned with high octane knows that most of the added power comes with advanced timing vs. additional boost.

Jimbo

[Tiago@VRSF]

I agree, especially when running E85 or race gas since you have quite a bit more room to play before reaching MBT.

[casualDIYer]

Would be nice to see a PPKs for the gasoline 320i. Any rumours swirling around about that? I can only guess why it just showed up. It seems like there are a lot of tunes for the F30 and the platform is only 2 years old. Someone sees there's money to be made.

One reviewer mentioned the 320d should have came with 200hp 'out of the box'. I'd agree with the sentiment. The GTI has 200, the CLA 208, the 250C 201, the A4 220. Are these cars not all German turbo 4 bangers?

Mysteriously the 2014 320 came with 20 ft-lbs more than the 2013 model yet other parts remain the same. Seems like even BMW can't resist tuning the 320i.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

I should have re-worded that. You're going to safely make more power by adding a couple PSI of boost rather than running more aggressive ignition timing.

If you advance ignition too much you're going to get pre-detonation which over a prolonged period of time will blow a motor. This becomes more and more prominent as IAT's rise which is why it's recommended to run a good intercooler to keep temps as low and consistent as possible.

I realize that the following doesn't rightly belong in the N20 forum, but it might be interesting nevertheless. It may well be that folks can more safely approximate the unreleased PPK for the N20B20, as I think can be done for the N47D20 in the 328d. You need to find out what parts are in the N20B20 PPK and find out which are already in our 328i and which aren't, and find out how they can be obtained. It may turn out to be too complicated or costly, but it seems pretty straightforward for the 328d.

The 328d already comes with the enlarged intercooler (OEM# 17427640511) initially used for the E90 320d LCI PPK for the N47D20 engine. The F30 320d PPK also uses this part.

The enlarged 600W radiator fan from the 325d used in the original PPK for the E90 320d LCI (OEM# 17428621192) is now used in the 328i and many other F30 models, and can be obtained slightly used for ~$500. (I'm unclear if even that is necessary because the 328d may well already have a 600W fan, I just can't confirm it. The OEM# for the 328d fan is 17427640512, if anyone can track down that information.)

Bottom line is that the unreleased PPK for the 328d can be approximated by purchasing the piggyback of your choice and possibly the enlarged radiator fan. If you choose a low-end piggyback like BMS you can get it done for $800+labor (much less if the fan isn't needed) assuming you don't DIY. I emphasize "approximated" because the ECU of the PPK will be programmed differently than either a high-end box like Hartge, Schnitzer, etc. or a low-end box like BMS. But at least the mind of 328d owners can be at rest concerning the possibility of chronically increased IATs harming their engine if using a piggyback--if this information is correct.

My bias is toward the high-end boxes because I believe that it's usually the case that you get what you pay for. If we didn't believe that we'd be buying Kias over BMWs. The German tuners' long association with BMW engines gives them a real advantage IMHO.

None of the above applies to approximating the PPK for the 328i n20 engine. Someone else would need to do the research on that. The above information only applies to the N47d20 engine.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by menncars

Would be nice to see a PPKs for the gasoline 320i. Any rumours swirling around about that? I can only guess why it just showed up. It seems like there are a lot of tunes for the F30 and the platform is only 2 years old. Someone sees there's money to be made.

One reviewer mentioned the 320d should have came with 200hp 'out of the box'. I'd agree with the sentiment. The GTI has 200, the CLA 208, the 250C 201, the A4 220. Are these cars not all German turbo 4 bangers?

Mysteriously the 2014 320 came with 20 ft-lbs more than the 2013 model yet other parts remain the same. Seems like even BMW can't resist tuning the 320i.

Diesel output cannot be compared to gasoline, so your 200hp GTI etc, the diesel will be down up horsepower but up on tq.

Do you have a source on the '14 320 having more power than 2013? That might be a website error as the engine should be unchanged.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

I realize that the following doesn't rightly belong in the N20 forum, but it might be interesting nevertheless. It may well be that folks can more safely approximate the unreleased PPK for the N20B20, as I think can be done for the N47D20 in the 328d. You need to find out what parts are in the N20B20 PPK and find out which are already in our 328i and which aren't, and find out how they can be obtained. It may turn out to be too complicated or costly, but it seems pretty straightforward for the 328d.

The 328d already comes with the enlarged intercooler (OEM# 17427640511) initially used for the E90 320d LCI PPK for the N47D20 engine. The F30 320d PPK also uses this part.

The enlarged 600W radiator fan from the 325d used in the original PPK for the E90 320d LCI (OEM# 17428621192) is now used in the 328i and many other F30 models, and can be obtained slightly used for ~$500. (I'm unclear if even that is necessary because the 328d may well already have a 600W fan, I just can't confirm it. The OEM# for the 328d fan is 17427640512, if anyone can track down that information.)

Bottom line is that the unreleased PPK for the 328d can be approximated by purchasing the piggyback of your choice and possibly the enlarged radiator fan. If you choose a low-end piggyback like BMS you can get it done for $800+labor (much less if the fan isn't needed) assuming you don't DIY. I emphasize "approximated" because the ECU of the PPK will be programmed differently than either a high-end box like Hartge, Schnitzer, etc. or a low-end box like BMS. But at least the mind of 328d owners can be at rest concerning the possibility of chronically increased IATs harming their engine if using a piggyback--if this information is correct.

My bias is toward the high-end boxes because I believe that it's usually the case that you get what you pay for. If we didn't believe that we'd be buying Kias over BMWs. The German tuners' long association with BMW engines gives them a real advantage IMHO.

None of the above applies to approximating the PPK for the 328i n20 engine. Someone else would need to do the research on that. The above information only applies to the N47d20 engine.

From experience in tuning other brands, that is simply not the case. Plenty of tuners charge more simply because they feel they can.

With Saabs, we use to pay $1000 for Nordic, BSR or Maptune tunes. People were running lean on BSR but did well with the other two. Then little guys got into tuning and cracked open the big three tunes and found very basic parameters had been changed. Very soon, tunes for $200 from smaller guys were found to be far better than the big 3 tuners.

It was the same with Nissan Z cars and Stillen. He had the name, he had the market share, and he had the big prices like $1000 for my NA tune. Again, the smaller guys made as much if not more power, smoother, and found that Stillen has surprisingly little R&D in his software.

The assumption that the $$$ BMW piggbacks are better than BMS is a dangerous one. BMS owns a 320,328, and 335 all for tuning, posts a dyno of every change, and constantly tweaks and updates and announces improvements to the cars thanks to constant R&D. Your German tuners are not doing anything right now, they got to market with the boxes, and stopped R&D.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

From experience in tuning other brands, that is simply not the case. Plenty of tuners charge more simply because they feel they can.

With Saabs, we use to pay $1000 for Nordic, BSR or Maptune tunes. People were running lean on BSR but did well with the other two. Then little guys got into tuning and cracked open the big three tunes and found very basic parameters had been changed. Very soon, tunes for $200 from smaller guys were found to be far better than the big 3 tuners.

It was the same with Nissan Z cars and Stillen. He had the name, he had the market share, and he had the big prices like $1000 for my NA tune. Again, the smaller guys made as much if not more power, smoother, and found that Stillen has surprisingly little R&D in his software.

The assumption that the $$$ BMW piggbacks are better than BMS is a dangerous one. BMS owns a 320,328, and 335 all for tuning, posts a dyno of every change, and constantly tweaks and updates and announces improvements to the cars thanks to constant R&D. Your German tuners are not doing anything right now, they got to market with the boxes, and stopped R&D.

JV, I appreciate the feedback. I've asked my contacts at Hartge and Kelleners Sport to comment on this and I'll let you know when I hear back. I'm not concerned so much with documenting dyno output as I am in the long term health of the engine and that's a different metric. My assumption at this point is that the German boxes work through extending main injection time rather than by increasing CR pressure, and that's more similar to the way the BMW ECU tends to function and easier on the engine. That's what their information indicates.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

JV, I appreciate the feedback. I've asked my contacts at Hartge and Kelleners Sport to comment on this and I'll let you know when I hear back. I'm not concerned so much with documenting dyno output as I am in the long term health of the engine and that's a different metric. My assumption at this point is that the German boxes work through extending main injection time rather than by increasing CR pressure, and that's more similar to the way the BMW ECU tends to function and easier on the engine. That's what their information indicates.

Long term health....

BMS still has in house all the cars they have the tune on(320-328-335), and the thousands of customers and people on the site. Fact is, in the US, your German tuners have waaay too little customer feedback and I doubt they still have F30s in house. Many tuners sell off the cars when done with tuning, but I know for a fact BMS still has the F30s in house which they are taking data from.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Diesel output cannot be compared to gasoline, so your 200hp GTI etc, the diesel will be down up horsepower but up on tq.

Do you have a source on the '14 320 having more power than 2013? That might be a website error as the engine should be unchanged.

Discovered it by accident on BMW Canada's website.

If the Canadian dollar wasn't at par with US dollars I could almost believe those prices were okay. Almost . . . .

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by menncars

Discovered it by accident on BMW Canada's website.

If the Canadian dollar wasn't at par with US dollars I could almost believe those prices were okay. Almost . . . .

Yep, mistake on the web. Engine is unchanged.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Long term health....

BMS still has in house all the cars they have the tune on(320-328-335), and the thousands of customers and people on the site. Fact is, in the US, your German tuners have waaay too little customer feedback and I doubt they still have F30s in house. Many tuners sell off the cars when done with tuning, but I know for a fact BMS still has the F30s in house which they are taking data from.

I agree that customer feedback on the BMS products tends to be very good (not perfect), and feedback for the European tuners is of course more sparse because they don't sell too much over here. But perusing the web for overseas user reviews (a lot out of Singapore and Malaysia), those reports are very good too.

I've requested that Hartge and KS update me on the status of the R&D efforts, so let's see what they say.

I'm more than a bit suspicious of the JBD because it's supposed to work for the different engines in the 2006+ E90 320d, 330d, 335d and X5d as well as the F30 328d. The German tuners manufacture specific boxes for specific engines. That, to my mind, is a huge advantage in favor of the German brands. I wouldn't trust the JBD as much on that basis alone.

There's only been one diesel release in NA before the 328d, and I doubt many people here felt the need to upgrade the power of the 335d, so I'd be surprised if much feedback at all existed. Even so, it's a different engine than the 328d's.

I still very much prefer the way the German tuners go about increasing power through modifying main injection time rather than increasing CR pressure and boost. JV, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. I just think it's kinder and gentler to the engine, it's more similar to how the OE ECU works, and is a more fuel efficient way (producing lower emissions) to increase power--in a word, a more sophisticated map for the OE ECU to work with.

[Jamesons Viggen]

I have no opinion on diesel tuning as I have no experience with it.

Originally Posted by stevehecht

I agree that customer feedback on the BMS products tends to be very good (not perfect), and feedback for the European tuners is of course more sparse because they don't sell too much over here. But perusing the web for overseas user reviews (a lot out of Singapore and Malaysia), those reports are very good too.

I've requested that Hartge and KS update me on the status of the R&D efforts, so let's see what they say.

I'm more than a bit suspicious of the JBD because it's supposed to work for the different engines in the 2006+ E90 320d, 330d, 335d and X5d as well as the F30 328d. The German tuners manufacture specific boxes for specific engines. That, to my mind, is a huge advantage in favor of the German brands. I wouldn't trust the JBD as much on that basis alone.

There's only been one diesel release in NA before the 328d, and I doubt many people here felt the need to upgrade the power of the 335d, so I'd be surprised if much feedback at all existed. Even so, it's a different engine than the 328d's.

I still very much prefer the way the German tuners go about increasing power through modifying main injection time rather than increasing CR pressure and boost. JV, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. I just think it's kinder and gentler to the engine, it's more similar to how the OE ECU works, and is a more fuel efficient way (producing lower emissions) to increase power--in a word, a more sophisticated map for the OE ECU to work with.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Yep, mistake on the web. Engine is unchanged.

Odd, the 328i also had a smaller bump in torque too.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

I agree that customer feedback on the BMS products tends to be very good (not perfect), and feedback for the European tuners is of course more sparse because they don't sell too much over here. But perusing the web for overseas user reviews (a lot out of Singapore and Malaysia), those reports are very good too.

A search for reviews in German, Dutch, French or Italian may bring up more results. How do these German tuning boxes do in England, a large market for BMW?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by menncars

Odd, the 328i also had a smaller bump in torque too.

Not seeing it.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

The schematics for the plug-n-play are completely different. The Hartge, etc. boxes plug into the injectors to manipulate main injection time without increasing CR pressure. The BMS product does not do that.

lol, that is their diesel box. Which works similar to the BMS JBD. The N20 GASOLINE tuning is completely different. With the gasoline motors the fuel mass is modified via the fuel pressure sensor. Both tunes use the same method.

The Hartage N20 is similar to the BMS N20 Stage1. It does not have CANbus access and instead relies on connecting to the camshaft sensor for RPM, TPS for pedal input, etc, and can not read AFR, can not read timing, can not read knock sensors, can not read throttle body, can not read drivers settings such as mode selected, etc.

The JB4 can read/delete hidden BMW codes, monitor all parameters including timing advance and knock, air/fuel ratios, etc, which are all also viewable to the user in the included interface program. It offers maps for various octane fuels which can be changed on the fly, can limit boost in 1st & 2nd gear for increased traction, and much more. For less money too.

Mike

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

lol, that is their diesel box. Which works similar to the BMS JBD. The N20 GASOLINE tuning is completely different. With the gasoline motors the fuel mass is modified via the fuel pressure sensor. Both tunes use the same method.

The Hartage N20 is similar to the BMS N20 Stage1. It does not have CANbus access and instead relies on connecting to the camshaft sensor for RPM, TPS for pedal input, etc, and can not read AFR, can not read timing, can not read knock sensors, can not read throttle body, can not read drivers settings such as mode selected, etc.

The JB4 can read/delete hidden BMW codes, monitor all parameters including timing advance and knock, air/fuel ratios, etc, which are all also viewable to the user in the included interface program. It offers maps for various octane fuels which can be changed on the fly, can limit boost in 1st & 2nd gear for increased traction, and much more. For less money too.

Mike

Yeah, but the Hartage costs more-so that means it must be better