[Goneinsixtyseconds]

For the first time ever I envy the political situation in France.

I am pretty central with my views, I am all for privatising certain industries and a free and well run economy. Happy with the bankers and their pay, no wish to run them out of town. But I also have a social conscience and hate what the tories are doing to public services, in particular the NHS and education, which are important in my own life.

The situation in France is like a political experiment and if it worked it would be amazing. A centre President appointing both left and right to his cabinet is a brilliant move. Both sides have a say and maybe it will work, social justice and an economy that works. That's the dream right, we all hope it's possible?!

Unfortunately it's pretty obvious that the political parties on both sides in France will do everything in their power to make sure this effort fails. Which is a sad reflection on our world.

Also, the same is impossible in the UK as our leader HAS to be a leader of either Labour or the Conservatives, and therefore either without a moral conscience or without a business brain.

Not much of a choice for someone who cares about the economy and people.

[Daftasabrush]

Personally, I do very well under the conservatives, it's got better in recent years too.

I just don't believe that they have the country's well being at their hearts. Investment in the NHS and police has plummeted over the years they've been in power. The junior doctor contract that 'hunt' introduced is shite and unfair. National services are being robbed of money they need. The incessant privatisation of public services is IMO obscene and unnecessary.

I've read both Tory and Labour manifestos and while I appreciate they will both go back on their promises, the Labour one has a LOT more I agree with than the Tory one. The last part of the Tory one terrifies me, they want to control the internet. That is a no go for me. It would involve having government run and controlled equipment installed in my datacentres and intercepting the traffic exiting them.

Based on previous activity, I see Corbyn as dodgy and May as a control freak.

Locally, the Labour lot are fantastic, they help with events, they help with charities, they campaign for things the locals need/are affected by. They genuinely seem to care. On the other side, the Tories (who's seat is pretty much guaranteed here) do fuck all reduce spending and let the roads get bad.

I'm finding it really difficult. I'm probably swaying towards Labour though.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Daftasabrush

Personally, I do very well under the conservatives, it's got better in recent years too.

I just don't believe that they have the country's well being at their hearts. Investment in the NHS and police has plummeted over the years they've been in power. The junior doctor contract that 'hunt' introduced is shite and unfair. National services are being robbed of money they need. The incessant privatisation of public services is IMO obscene and unnecessary.

I've read both Tory and Labour manifestos and while I appreciate they will both go back on their promises, the Labour one has a LOT more I agree with than the Tory one. The last part of the Tory one terrifies me, they want to control the internet. That is a no go for me. It would involve having government run and controlled equipment installed in my datacentres and intercepting the traffic exiting them.

Based on previous activity, I see Corbyn as dodgy and May as a control freak.

Locally, the Labour lot are fantastic, they help with events, they help with charities, they campaign for things the locals need/are affected by. They genuinely seem to care. On the other side, the Tories (who's seat is pretty much guaranteed here) do fuck all reduce spending and let the roads get bad.

I'm finding it really difficult. I'm probably swaying towards Labour though.

That's where I'm turning to as well.

The scary thing for the tories is that it is swing voters that decide an election. Hardcore lifelong left or right decide nothing.

[robbiep]

Originally Posted by Alex440

That's where I'm turning to as well.

The scary thing for the tories is that it is swing voters that decide an election. Hardcore lifelong left or right decide nothing.

hardcore lifelong right (and I think a few of us are, reading these posts) might just decide a fair bit if we don't turn out and vote.

[73henny]

So if you are looking at voting Labour, I assume you know where all the money is coming from for all the spending they are promising?
To me its eerily similar to the deluded SNP fiscal geniuses we have to suffer up here. Easy saying 'spend more money on this, that and the next thing'. Not so easy paying for it. Scotland's deficit is twice the % that sent Greece bust, but that is lost it seems on their head-in-the-sand voters. Maybe its lost on Corbynites too.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by robbiep

hardcore lifelong right (and I think a few of us are, reading these posts) might just decide a fair bit if we don't turn out and vote.

Excellent point. But, it still doesn't matter. Hardcore left or right, you make up the majority of the vote for each side, yes. But the deciding votes are those that change. It's not ideal, but probably only 20% of the electorate decide the result.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

It's a BMW forum, I would imagine the vast majority are tories

Really? I thought many PCP BMW drivers on here also believe in the spend your way out of anything policy. So could understand the labour thinking

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by 73henny

So if you are looking at voting Labour, I assume you know where all the money is coming from for all the spending they are promising?
To me its eerily similar to the deluded SNP fiscal geniuses we have to suffer up here. Easy saying 'spend more money on this, that and the next thing'. Not so easy paying for it. Scotland's deficit is twice the % that sent Greece bust, but that is lost it seems on their head-in-the-sand voters. Maybe its lost on Corbynites too.

Nope, I don't need to know it all. I just need to decide which is the best of a bad bunch.

I haven't made my final decision, but I'm turned off the tories for their shit NHS and education policies.

If you think the tories have all the financial answers you are equally deluded. Austerity has been proven across the world to be poor policy, but we carry on anyway.

Privatising things that individuals or business choose to pay for makes sense. British Steel, Railways, Post Office. Ultimately competition ought to make them stronger.

Privatising the NHS and education, that the government pays for, just adds a private companies margin to the cost. And is an outright admission that the government isn't smart enough to do it themselves. Failure as I see it.

I'm not getting into a long winded debate on a BMW forum. Been drawn in too many times. The ratio of right to left is disproportionate on here and it's a waste of energy.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Really? I thought many PCP BMW drivers on here also believe in the spend your way out of anything policy. So could understand the labour thinking

Yes, because putting £50k of your own money into a heavily depreciating asset makes perfect sense. All you're saving is 2.9% interest by doing that, and tying up capital.

My cash is going into property and not cars.

[Daftasabrush]

Originally Posted by 73henny

So if you are looking at voting Labour, I assume you know where all the money is coming from for all the spending they are promising?
To me its eerily similar to the deluded SNP fiscal geniuses we have to suffer up here. Easy saying 'spend more money on this, that and the next thing'. Not so easy paying for it. Scotland's deficit is twice the % that sent Greece bust, but that is lost it seems on their head-in-the-sand voters. Maybe its lost on Corbynites too.

I'm not qualified to quantify it and do proper analysis on it so I can't comment. Their manifesto states 'Our manifesto is fully costed, with
all current spending paid for out of taxation or redirected revenue streams. Our public services must rest on the foundation of sound finances. Labour will therefore set the target of eliminating the government’s deficit on day-to-day spending within five years'.

Given that I can't verify either party's claims about where the money comes from, why should I, as a voter, dis-credit Labour's based on their statement?

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Alex440

Nope, I don't need to know it all. I just need to decide which is the best of a bad bunch.

I haven't made my final decision, but I'm turned off the tories for their shit NHS and education policies.

If you think the tories have all the financial answers you are equally deluded. Privatising things that individuals or business choose to pay for makes sense. British Steel, Railways, Post Office. Ultimately competition ought to make them stronger.

Privatising the NHS and education, that the government pays for, just adds a private companies margin to the cost. And is an outright admission that the government isn't smart enough to do it themselves. Failure as I see it.

I'm not getting into a long winded debate on a BMW forum. Been drawn in too many times. The ratio of right to left is disproportionate on here and it's a waste of energy.

You do know that most of the rest of the world have a privatised everything?

There is a undercurrent of entitlement in the modern British society, that I think is bred by the fact that the government run many of the institutions we use. It stinks.

Don't forget, in a privatised world, you would pay significantly less tax, could choose the best deal from those really switched on service suppliers, good companies would prosper whilst mediocre ones would disappear....but yes would have to pay for it out of your own pocket.

Ironic, those that think non of the parties are doing great job because of the state of these institutions, supports a Government controlled society.

[Darth Helmut]

Originally Posted by Daftasabrush

I'm not qualified to quantify it and do proper analysis on it so I can't comment. Their manifesto states 'Our manifesto is fully costed, with
all current spending paid for out of taxation or redirected revenue streams. Our public services must rest on the foundation of sound finances. Labour will therefore set the target of eliminating the government’s deficit on day-to-day spending within five years'.

Given that I can't verify either party's claims about where the money comes from, why should I, as a voter, dis-credit Labour's based on their statement?

Yep, if they let Abbott do the sums...

[73henny]

Originally Posted by Alex440

Nope, I don't need to know it all. I just need to decide which is the best of a bad bunch.

I haven't made my final decision, but I'm turned off the tories for their shit NHS and education policies.

If you think the tories have all the financial answers you are equally deluded. Austerity has been proven across the world to be poor policy, but we carry on anyway.

Privatising things that individuals or business choose to pay for makes sense. British Steel, Railways, Post Office. Ultimately competition ought to make them stronger.

Privatising the NHS and education, that the government pays for, just adds a private companies margin to the cost. And is an outright admission that the government isn't smart enough to do it themselves. Failure as I see it.

I'm not getting into a long winded debate on a BMW forum. Been drawn in too many times. The ratio of right to left is disproportionate on here and it's a waste of energy.

I don't think the tories have all the answers, and I'm not deluded
Privatisation does add margin, but reduces waste. I work in the public sector and see wastage on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by Daftasabrush

I'm not qualified to quantify it and do proper analysis on it so I can't comment. Their manifesto states 'Our manifesto is fully costed, with
all current spending paid for out of taxation or redirected revenue streams. Our public services must rest on the foundation of sound finances. Labour will therefore set the target of eliminating the government’s deficit on day-to-day spending within five years'.

Given that I can't verify either party's claims about where the money comes from, why should I, as a voter, dis-credit Labour's based on their statement?

Its not that long since 'prudent' Brown. He tried the borrowing, didn't work. If you are borrowing money and selling gold in the good times what chance have you got?
I do think the tories cut too much too soon though and it seems like they've easing off on when they aim to have a budget surplus.

[Daftasabrush]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

You do know that most of the rest of the world have a privatised everything?

There is a undercurrent of entitlement in the modern British society, that I think is bred by the fact that the government run many of the institutions we use. It stinks.

Don't forget, in a privatised world, you would pay significantly less tax, could choose the best deal from those really switched on service suppliers, good companies would prosper whilst mediocre ones would disappear....but yes would have to pay for it out of your own pocket.

Ironic, those that think non of the parties are doing great job because of the state of these institutions, supports a Government controlled society.

Do you realise that 70% of our rail companies are partially owned or operated by foreign states? Without being alarmist, how is it right that foreign states own stakes in our own infrastructure? Granted this might be ok if we owned stakes in theirs, but I'm yet to find evidence that there is a reciprocal agreement.

I understand business is business, but generally in Europe you don't get privatised rail companies, yet we do, and the money in them comes from, guess who...

[Daftasabrush]

Originally Posted by Darth Helmut

Yep, if they let Abbott do the sums...

haha, fair point, but I'm assuming here it wasn't her that did the maths

[....,,,,..,,..]

Could anyone really vote for a party whose leader has been and is on friendly terms with the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRA, various hate preachers (banned from the country, is very anti Semitic (just look at pre 2010 stuff), is fully in bed with crazy union leaders.

Someone unable to actually lead and manage his own party.

How can someone voting labour this time around actually face themselves in the mirror each morning?

[73henny]

Originally Posted by Daftasabrush

Without being alarmist, how is it right that foreign states own stakes in our own infrastructure?

They don't own the infrastructure, Network Rail does. So the infrastructure is in public ownership.
Operators use the infrastructure and can do so due to EU competition rules.

[Daftasabrush]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Could anyone really vote for a party whose leader has been and is on friendly terms with the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRA, various hate preachers (banned from the country, is very anti Semitic (just look at pre 2010 stuff), is fully in bed with crazy union leaders.

Someone unable to actually lead and manage his own party.

How can someone voting labour this time around actually face themselves in the mirror each morning?

Can you provide credible references for your claims? (Genuine interest)

[Daftasabrush]

Originally Posted by 73henny

They don't own the infrastructure, Network Rail does. So the infrastructure is in public ownership.
Operators use the infrastructure and can do so due to EU competition rules.

Technically yes, the actual 'infrastructure' is owned by network rail but realistically would you not consider a form of mass transport infrastructure?

Without those companies we have no rail system currently.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Daftasabrush

Can you provide credible references for your claims? (Genuine interest)

Seriously you are not aware of his past?

A simple Google reveals plenty.

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Seriously you are not aware of his past?

A simple Google reveals plenty.

He's a cunt.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by 73henny

I don't think the tories have all the answers, and I'm not deluded
Privatisation does add margin, but reduces waste. I work in the public sector and see wastage on a daily basis.

Rolled eyes, charming. I think the accusations of not being bright enough to understand my own decisions was aimed at me first.

Privatising sections of the NHS has not made it leaner or reduced waste, it has had the opposite affect, often with the NHS stepping in to support privatised services, doubling the cost. I see that daily too. The private companies generally do not have the skills to do it, or the incentive, when they are being paid out of the governments chequebook.

Just like the public part of the NHS, there are no consequences for waste.