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      04-03-2013, 02:53 PM   #1
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F30 6MT (328 vs. 335) / Shift Knob Height

First things first, this is not a 328 vs. 335 thread…plenty of those already. By way of background on my perspective, I currently have a 2011 328i 6MT (RWD) and previously had a 2008 335xi Auto.

I’ve seen on one or two threads that the difference between the manual transmission for the F30 328 and 335 is not just the different gearing, but that they are different transmissions altogether. Somewhere I read that ZF makes the 335 6MT and Getrag makes the 328 6MT (and I also know that Getrag supplies a lot of parts to ZF, but no clue in what capacity), but I cant confirm this … or even find where I read it originally.

So last night I drove a 6MT 328 and a 6MT 335 back to back; shockingly, Otto's BMW in West Chester, PA had both on hand (highly recommend this dealer btw, class operation all around). A test drive of two cars each with less than 200 miles on the odometer is far from conclusive (or scientific for that matter), but my impression, trying to put aside obvious differences in power delivery/torque, is that they definitely felt different before I even released the clutch. Specifically, engaging 1st in the parking lot (1) in the 328 felt similar to putting the 8AT into “D”, and (2) in the 335 felt similar to engaging 1st in my current e90.

I will say that as I rowed the gears on actual roads the 328 didn’t feel as uncommunicative as it did initially, but it definitely felt less sure in its engagement than the 335. To be honest I wasn’t blown away with the feel of the 335 either compared to my current e90 Msport set up, but I am hoping this is just a matter of it not being broken in. Can anyone else chime in that has driven both of these cars?

Second point is the height of the shift knob. The e90 Msport transmission ergonomics couldn’t be better, so maybe I am a bit spoiled. The e82 1 series also has a perfect seating/shifting position. Several months ago I drove a 328 6MT non-sport; yesterday’s test was of a 328 Sportline and 335 Msport. Granted it was months ago, but the non-sport shift knob seemed ridiculously high. Driving the Sportline yesterday was a little better - seemed like a full 1-2 inches lower than the non-sport. I was expecting another 1" or so drop for the M sport. Disappointingly, the Msport knob height seemed about the same as the Sportline, albeit weighted a litte better (which could be the answer to my 1st point). As far as I cant tell the M performance CF shift knob (P/N 25 11 2 222 534) is purely cosmetic and wouldn't change the position of the knob.

Does anyone know if the e90 short throw shifter would work? Even if that would work, is the F30 transmission just mounted higher so that even the SSK would be the same height anyway?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
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      04-03-2013, 03:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R12ax7 View Post
First things first, this is not a 328 vs. 335 thread…plenty of those already. By way of background on my perspective, I currently have a 2011 328i 6MT (RWD) and previously had a 2008 335xi Auto.

I’ve seen on one or two threads that the difference between the manual transmission for the F30 328 and 335 is not just the different gearing, but that they are different transmissions altogether. Somewhere I read that ZF makes the 335 6MT and Getrag makes the 328 6MT (and I also know that Getrag supplies a lot of parts to ZF, but no clue in what capacity), but I cant confirm this … or even find where I read it originally.

So last night I drove a 6MT 328 and a 6MT 335 back to back; shockingly, Otto's BMW in West Chester, PA had both on hand (highly recommend this dealer btw, class operation all around). A test drive of two cars each with less than 200 miles on the odometer is far from conclusive (or scientific for that matter), but my impression, trying to put aside obvious differences in power delivery/torque, is that they definitely felt different before I even released the clutch. Specifically, engaging 1st in the parking lot (1) in the 328 felt similar to putting the 8AT into “D”, and (2) in the 335 felt similar to engaging 1st in my current e90.

I will say that as I rowed the gears on actual roads the 328 didn’t feel as uncommunicative as it did initially, but it definitely felt less sure in its engagement than the 335. To be honest I wasn’t blown away with the feel of the 335 either compared to my current e90 Msport set up, but I am hoping this is just a matter of it not being broken in. Can anyone else chime in that has driven both of these cars?

Second point is the height of the shift knob. The e90 Msport transmission ergonomics couldn’t be better, so maybe I am a bit spoiled. The e82 1 series also has a perfect seating/shifting position. Several months ago I drove a 328 6MT non-sport; yesterday’s test was of a 328 Sportline and 335 Msport. Granted it was months ago, but the non-sport shift knob seemed ridiculously high. Driving the Sportline yesterday was a little better - seemed like a full 1-2 inches lower than the non-sport. I was expecting another 1" or so drop for the M sport. Disappointingly, the Msport knob height seemed about the same as the Sportline, albeit weighted a litte better (which could be the answer to my 1st point). As far as I cant tell the M performance CF shift knob (P/N 25 11 2 222 534) is purely cosmetic and wouldn't change the position of the knob.

Does anyone know if the e90 short throw shifter would work? Even if that would work, is the F30 transmission just mounted higher so that even the SSK would be the same height anyway?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I drove a 6mt Sport and hated it, mainly due to the shift knob.

M-Sport is weighted, might be a bit lower in overall height too. Much preferred.

I also found the clutch travel too long. A $10 clutch stop made a huge difference.

I highly doubt there is much in the way of differences in feel of the 335 vs 328 6mt, and might have been car to car differences. If you drive an M-Sport 328, just the shift knob makes a fair bit of difference in feel compared to the Sport you drove.
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      04-03-2013, 05:20 PM   #3
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The sport line shifter is pretty tall, I replaced mine with the ZHP knob and it is quite a bit better. Slightly shorter and better weighted. I think the M Performance shifter is even more so but I can't stand the appearance... not a fan of carbon fiber.

As for the transmissions themselves, the 328 is a Getrag and the 335 is a ZF, I have read that the ZF is a bit higher quality. My 328 went through about a 3 week period where it was popping out of 2nd gear on rev matched downshifts but that has (mysteriously) gone away. Sometimes 2nd gear shifts can be a bit "gritty" though.

But, all said, when compared to the garbage transmission in my old G37, this thing is like butter.
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      04-04-2013, 08:46 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unintelligible View Post
The sport line shifter is pretty tall, I replaced mine with the ZHP knob and it is quite a bit better. Slightly shorter and better weighted. I think the M Performance shifter is even more so but I can't stand the appearance... not a fan of carbon fiber.

As for the transmissions themselves, the 328 is a Getrag and the 335 is a ZF, I have read that the ZF is a bit higher quality. My 328 went through about a 3 week period where it was popping out of 2nd gear on rev matched downshifts but that has (mysteriously) gone away. Sometimes 2nd gear shifts can be a bit "gritty" though.

But, all said, when compared to the garbage transmission in my old G37, this thing is like butter.
No offense to any who have it, but I completely agree with you on the M Performance shifter.

Any idea if the ZHP knob is any shorter than the F30 M sport knob?
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      04-04-2013, 09:15 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R12ax7 View Post
No offense to any who have it, but I completely agree with you on the M Performance shifter.

Any idea if the ZHP knob is any shorter than the F30 M sport knob?
The ZHP IS the MSport knob. Same thing. I also have it on my Roadster. Very common upgrade on the e36 cars.
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      04-04-2013, 01:57 PM   #6
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Yeah it looks identical; wasnt sure if it had any different innards. Do you think the e90 M sport shifter is shorter than the ZHP knob then?
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      04-05-2013, 10:31 PM   #7
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Two different transmissions

Quote:
Originally Posted by R12ax7 View Post
I’ve seen on one or two threads that the difference between the manual transmission for the F30 328 and 335 is not just the different gearing, but that they are different transmissions altogether. Somewhere I read that ZF makes the 335 6MT and Getrag makes the 328 6MT (and I also know that Getrag supplies a lot of parts to ZF, but no clue in what capacity), but I cant confirm this … or even find where I read it originally.
From BMW's TIS: the 328 utilizes GS6-17BG transmission, while 335 uses GS6-45BZ gearbox. The 17BG is indeed built by Getrag (hence "G" in the nomenclature) and 45BZ is done by Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen (ZF).

Besides different suppliers, the transmissions have a number of techincal differences that jumped out at me. I'll point out the ones that may affect the "shift feel" as to stay on original topic.
* Getrag gearbox uses immersion or flooded lubrication while ZF utilizes dry sump approach. According to BMW dry sump is about 2% more efficient than flooded sump. In the 17BG gearbox the gear wheels on the counter-shaft are actually submerged in oil, sloshing the lubricant uncontrollably as they rotate. In the ZF box the transmission fluid is delivered directly to gears by a pump via injection pipes. I would venture to say that this may explain certain inconsistency in the way 1-2 and 2-3 shifts feel in my 328. Sometimes they are silky smooth, sometimes they are a bit notchy.
* The syncromesh units in 335's transmission are coated with "newly developed" carbon friction lining for "improved shift quality". I have not driven a new 335 with a stick, but I would imagine that coating the synchronizers would indeed make the shifts smoother.
* The ZF transmission uses triple band syncronizers on gears 1 and 2, while Getrag's box has single band units.

The 8-speed automatic is the same for both engines: GA8HP45Z.
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      04-08-2013, 07:53 AM   #8
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Wow, great info. Any idea if the e9x had different transmissions for the 328 and 335? or if either of the F30 transmissions are carried over from the e90?
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      04-08-2013, 10:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DmitryF30 View Post
From BMW's TIS: the 328 utilizes GS6-17BG transmission, while 335 uses GS6-45BZ gearbox. The 17BG is indeed built by Getrag (hence "G" in the nomenclature) and 45BZ is done by Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen (ZF).

Besides different suppliers, the transmissions have a number of techincal differences that jumped out at me. I'll point out the ones that may affect the "shift feel" as to stay on original topic.
* Getrag gearbox uses immersion or flooded lubrication while ZF utilizes dry sump approach. According to BMW dry sump is about 2% more efficient than flooded sump. In the 17BG gearbox the gear wheels on the counter-shaft are actually submerged in oil, sloshing the lubricant uncontrollably as they rotate. In the ZF box the transmission fluid is delivered directly to gears by a pump via injection pipes. I would venture to say that this may explain certain inconsistency in the way 1-2 and 2-3 shifts feel in my 328. Sometimes they are silky smooth, sometimes they are a bit notchy.
* The syncromesh units in 335's transmission are coated with "newly developed" carbon friction lining for "improved shift quality". I have not driven a new 335 with a stick, but I would imagine that coating the synchronizers would indeed make the shifts smoother.
* The ZF transmission uses triple band syncronizers on gears 1 and 2, while Getrag's box has single band units.

The 8-speed automatic is the same for both engines: GA8HP45Z.
Wonder if there is a difference in weight?

If the 335 has a better trans, then I cross my fingers it blows, go to my friend's dealership for a warranty replacement but have 'em put in the ZF unit instead :P
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      04-08-2013, 11:38 AM   #10
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Interesting, it looks like the e90 328/335 6MTs had the same two transmissions also. It also looks like early 335s had a beefier transmission (GS6-53BZ) before they switched to the GS6-45BZ unit.

Apparently I am enjoying the 17BG now in my e90 though!
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