[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

I could care less if the competition has more room.

This entire popcornfest of a thread is because someone dared compare one car to another.

Comparisons are everything to the manufacturers. You have to win in every category. And they're selling truckloads.

Everyone just brings out a new line that's smaller - ergo the 1 & 2 Series.

And the fact they lost a loyal customer and gained 10 others won't worry BMW. For what it's worth, I moved up from an E90 to an F30 and love everything about it - I do not miss my old 328i in the slightest. I'm not as loyal as you - 17 years, 4 new models - with a gap in between where I had company cars, but the choice to throw the toys out of the cot is yours.

Something else I will say and this is not directed at you - every F30 owner here who is "defending their purchase decision" is doing exactly the same as every E90 owner who is "defending their purchase decision" to the exact same degree, except their choice is cheaper. However - we all chose to purchase/lease F30s because we could. How many E90 owners "hate the F30" because they can't afford one? We F30 defenders can prove we could afford one because we did indeed get one. E90 owners can't - they can claim "I could afford one but chose not to" but they can't prove it... not trying to start a war, but the same issue was raised regarding Porsche in the past also, where the hatred of the new model came out of the inability of many to afford it...

[300hp]

And lets not try to rewrite history. The E90/92 only started having some magical interior in this RT article. I had two competitors cars during the E90/92 days, no one back then was raving about the interior of that car. If anything that was the cars weakest link. It was great at everything else but it's "spartan" interior left a lot to be desired. This view was consistent amongst the forums of those two competitors and someone here has already spoken of this.

Lets leave history the way we found it, in any case someone is always willing to remind us.

My hat off to the N20. It's just done an amazing job at annihilating the competition. If something is going to beat it, I am sure that something is not an E90/92 328i. E30 maybe but then again who can stand in the way of an E30

[raffyg2388]

Originally Posted by jtodd

And everybody getting so mad about E90 preference is upset because they spent $45k on an F30 last month. Unfortunately just about everything you said here was your opinion and yours alone save a handful of people. Anyone who loves true BMW hated E90? Well if that were true than the F-series is even FURTHER from "traditional" BMW looks and it's "universal" that some of the "traditional" BMW feel was lost on the F30. Go on a @&$% Mercedes forum with that $#|!

+1

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

...
Yeah, the general public hated the E90 for its heavy steering at low speeds, its bumpy ride for a high end luxury car, and its lack of power.

Well, that would be their first mistake: thinking the 3er is a high end luxury car. It's not now; it never has been.

[oceanview]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

Oh, and for what it is worth. BMW lost a loyal customer (17 years, 6 new models). Yes, I still own one, but bought a classic.

A company can't grow with loyal customers, just by attracting new customers.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by oceanview

A company can't grow with loyal customers, just by attracting new customers.

Yes, and eventually it will be as mainstream as Toyota.

Originally Posted by dinonz

This entire popcornfest of a thread is because someone dared compare one car to another.

Comparisons are everything to the manufacturers. You have to win in every category. And they're selling truckloads.

Everyone just brings out a new line that's smaller - ergo the 1 & 2 Series.

And the fact they lost a loyal customer and gained 10 others won't worry BMW. For what it's worth, I moved up from an E90 to an F30 and love everything about it - I do not miss my old 328i in the slightest. I'm not as loyal as you - 17 years, 4 new models - with a gap in between where I had company cars, but the choice to throw the toys out of the cot is yours.

My question "where does it end" is left unanswered. Yes, plugging in a 1 & 2 series works for now, but eventually will face the same issue.

I'm not bitter about the F30 getting larger and glad you are happy with it. It's a nice evolution and seemingly what BMW had to do. For me, I never liked big cars and therefor was never interested in the 5 series. Now that the 3 series is as big, or bigger, than the 5 series used to be, I elected to pass on it. I don't feel like I just need to keep buying what they spoon feed me.

[norMcal]

Oh and for comparison:

First gen 7 series e23 vs F30

Wheelbase: 2,795mm vs 2,810mm
Length: 4,860mm vs 4,624mm
Width: 1,800mm vs 1,811mm
Height: 1,430mm vs 1,429mm
Wight: 3400 lbs vs starting at 3406

It's worse than I thought. The new 3 series is like an old 7 series

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

Yes, and eventually it will be as mainstream as Toyota.



My question "where does it end" is left unanswered. Yes, plugging in a 1 & 2 series works for now, but eventually will face the same issue.

I'm not bitter about the F30 getting larger and glad you are happy with it. It's a nice evolution and seemingly what BMW had to do. For me, I never liked big cars and therefor was never interested in the 5 series. Now that the 3 series is as big, or bigger, than the 5 series used to be, I elected to pass on it. I don't feel like I just need to keep buying what they spoon feed me.

BMW increasing sales...here is why it is good?

I went through this discussion in '03'ish when studying automotive design in Detroit. There was a class focusing around design/marketing principles. Porsche was the topic of discussion.

The professor(a GM spy, no really that was his self proclaimed job title) asked, if you were the head of Porsche, would you greenlight the Cayenne.

All of the wanna be hot shot car designers mumbled and said no. I said hell yes-if I wanted to make money. An uproar began lol. Then I explained, that money I make means a influx of cash for R&D to make better sports cars, better 911s.

Why are we assuming that BMW does not do the same? An increase in sales means money for R&D like they have been investing heavily in Carbon Fiber. So instead of having a CF roof on the M3 and M6, maybe in a couple more years we get CF fenders, trunks, and maybe a 3000lb M3, and then the CF trickles to the roof of a 328. That is a good thing, a damn good thing.


In a few dimensions the F30 is the same size as the E39 5 series sold from when, '95-03? That is a lot of years for the 3 series to get incrementally larger in comparison. There are no exterior dimensions that I can think of where the F30 is larger and it is still LIGHTER than the E39. Also engine to engine we have more power and more efficiency. So I don't see why being similar to the E39 is cast as a negative. I personally LOVE the E39 M5 so much it's ridiculous.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

Oh and for comparison:

First gen 7 series e23 vs F30

Wheelbase: 2,795mm vs 2,810mm
Length: 4,860mm vs 4,624mm
Width: 1,800mm vs 1,811mm
Height: 1,430mm vs 1,429mm
Wight: 3400 lbs vs starting at 3406

It's worse than I thought. The new 3 series is like an old 7 series

Why go that far back to the E23, just prove your point with the E39.

Every single car will look huge going back as many years as the E23(1977!!!)

Go compare a 70's 911 to a 991 911, hell I bet todays Boxster is larger than an early 911. Compare a MK1 Golf to a new MK7. This is what the world demands, I don't see a point in holding the F30 to light as a specific example. I think more interesting would be to find counter examples were a generation is noticeably smaller.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

BMW increasing sales...here is why it is good?

I went through this discussion in '03'ish when studying automotive design in Detroit. There was a class focusing around design/marketing principles. Porsche was the topic of discussion.

The professor(a GM spy, no really that was his self proclaimed job title) asked, if you were the head of Porsche, would you greenlight the Cayenne.

All of the wanna be hot shot car designers mumbled and said no. I said hell yes-if I wanted to make money. An uproar began lol. Then I explained, that money I make means a influx of cash for R&D to make better sports cars, better 911s.

Why are we assuming that BMW does not do the same? An increase in sales means money for R&D like they have been investing heavily in Carbon Fiber. So instead of having a CF roof on the M3 and M6, maybe in a couple more years we get CF fenders, trunks, and maybe a 3000lb M3, and then the CF trickles to the roof of a 328. That is a good thing, a damn good thing.


In a few dimensions the F30 is the same size as the E39 5 series sold from when, '95-03? That is a lot of years for the 3 series to get incrementally larger in comparison. There are no exterior dimensions that I can think of where the F30 is larger and it is still LIGHTER than the E39. Also engine to engine we have more power and more efficiency. So I don't see why being similar to the E39 is cast as a negative. I personally LOVE the E39 M5 so much it's ridiculous.

You can justify the reason BMW is doing it all day long. I'm not arguing that. And maybe your reasoning is true, that someday the benefits will be that the M3 gets down to 3000 lbs again. Until then however, I will not be a sheeple.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Why go that far back to the E23, just prove your point with the E39.

Every single car will look huge going back as many years as the E23(1977!!!)

Go compare a 70's 911 to a 991 911, hell I bet todays Boxster is larger than an early 911. Compare a MK1 Golf to a new MK7. This is what the world demands, I don't see a point in holding the F30 to light as a specific example. I think more interesting would be to find counter examples were a generation is noticeably smaller.

My point is that I would never have considered the 7 series of e39 5 series a sports sedan. Yet, everybody insists that the F30 is one, even though it is the now same size what once was a autobahn cruiser. Same thing applies to the 911. It is now a GT car for the Silicon Valley executive and more a status symbol than a sports car.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

You can justify the reason BMW is doing it all day long. I'm not arguing that. And maybe your reasoning is true, that someday the benefits will be that the M3 gets down to 3000 lbs again. Until then however, I will not be a sheeple.

OK.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

My point is that I would never have considered the 7 series of e39 5 series a sports sedan. Yet, everybody insists that the F30 is one, even though it is the now same size what once was a autobahn cruiser. Same thing applies to the 911. It is now a GT car for the Silicon Valley executive and more a status symbol than a sports car.

The key word to that... I(YOU), as in I never considered the E39 a sports sedan.

I do not think anyone categorized the 7 as a sports sedan, though the E38 SWB with Mpack/Sports pack was close.

But the E39, especially outfitted correctly was pretty well regarded as a Sports Sedan. The E60 diminished that a bit, the F10 a whole lot more. But up to the E39, the 5 had cred as a sports sedan as the 3 did, just bigger.

I don't think of the E90 OR the F30 as much of a sports sedan in MY opinion. In MY opinion, after the E46 ZHP-the highlight of the 3 as sports SEDAN, it took a nose drive just as the 5 series did with the E39.

BMW in '01-02-that to me is pretty defining for making cars where SPORT came before other words. You had the E46 M3, the E36/7/8 M Coupe and Roadster, the E39 M5, the E38 Sport. But every year since then, things got more and more diluted. I only take issue when people skip over all of that and make it seem like it's the F30's doing and not the last DECADE lol.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

You can justify the reason BMW is doing it all day long. I'm not arguing that. And maybe your reasoning is true, that someday the benefits will be that the M3 gets down to 3000 lbs again. Until then however, I will not be a sheeple.

You remind me of the Android vs iPhone crowd. They (more so the Android owners) get so bitter and twisted about someone buying the other device and start calling them names.

Nobody who bought an F30 is a sheeple. They're all intelligent people, who are smart enough to decide "that's what I want".

And you're smart enough to decide "that's not what I want".

But don't start trying to put others down because they didn't make the same decision as you. Just sounds childish.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by dinonz

You remind me of the Android vs iPhone crowd. They (more so the Android owners) get so bitter and twisted about someone buying the other device and start calling them names.

Nobody who bought an F30 is a sheeple. They're all intelligent people, who are smart enough to decide "that's what I want".

And you're smart enough to decide "that's not what I want".

But don't start trying to put others down because they didn't make the same decision as you. Just sounds childish.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you or call anybody names. I just meant that I won't keep buying what's put in front of me for the sake of it being the natural progression. For many the f30 is the perfect car and I'm glad for them. I'm just trying to point out that it isn't for the ones that bought the 3 series for the last 2 decades and bought it because they loved the light nimble (small) sports sedan.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Nobody who bought an F30 is a sheeple. They're all intelligent people, who are smart enough to decide "that's what I want".

P.S.

Really? Nobody! And you know this how?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

P.S.

Really? Nobody! And you know this how?

Nah, I bet plenty of people buy the F30 because it's the newest 3 series. They are all over the NY/NJ area and they got the car as shown in the lease with Xdrive, automatic, standard suspension and wheels, but NAV and leather(It's for YEARS now had an MSRP of $40-42k, $399 a month and $5k down with taxes etc).

But there are not many of them on here in an enthusiasts forum. I also saw tons of the same people driving the same lease special E90 328s. In late 11-early 12 my dealer was offering RWD 328s with leather and heated seats for $199 a month, Xdrive for $249 a month. Do you know how many "Sheeple" jumped on that deal?

[Richbot]

I like the F30, I like the E90 more. E90 has all of the technical features the F30 has that matter to me and make the E46 an outdated platform (n55, dual pivot front suspension) in a less complicated package. I like both interiors, though mandatory iDrive is annoying.

For most people, the F30 is a better car in every way

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

P.S.

Really? Nobody! And you know this how?

You're getting bitter and twisted...

[Jamesons Viggen]

Here is a question...

Look at this test in '09 since we are so caught up in what magazines say.

Lows:
Lacks the Audi's grip, tighter back seat, aging and ready for its reboot.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

So this magazine writer thought the E90 335 was aging and in need of replacement 3+ years before one came. As to the merits of it's replacement, let's suspend that for a moment.

We make it out that the E90 had NEVER lost a comparison, yet the F30 seems to.

But here was a writer of a magazine, closer to the E90's hey dey of '09 vs '13 that said the S4 was the better car.

So if we are so into being validated that what a writer of a magazine says is gospel. How many of you sold your E90s for B8 S4s? How many B8 S4 owners came to E90post and other forums to tell you how great their cars are because this magazine said so?

[Longwong]

Man JV how much time do you spend online? Your posts are like novels and all defending the 328. Its entry level man-live with it. The 328 is bmw's econobox with decent performance. It has no performance bred intent and is not really an enthusiasts model. The last e90 328 was accepted widely as a better car for anyone who drives cars. Its ok. When you step up past entry level than I could see the fury but relax man. Enjoy the 35 mpg that the car was designed for and stop worrying that you are outperforming every other true drivers bmw

[Propagator]

Jesus, 10 pages of bickering over this again?!?

I belatedly found this short comparo through the truth about cars, and logged on to see what others have to say about it. Naturally, I went to the E90 forum, since this is something E90 owners would like to hear about. Nothing there. So I came here to see if it's been posted just in case, and boom, a freaking thread explosion.

What is there left to argue? The facts are clear. The F30 is more comfortable, more livable, more efficient, but less engaging and less focused than the E90. The only disputable thing I can think of is the styling, and maybe the interior material. The rest is PURELY PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

All this BS about whether the 3 series is a sports car or not is just utter juvenile nonsense. Everything's a spectrum. The 3er used to sit on the sportier edge of that spectrum, and over the years has migrated towards the comfort/practicality end. It just so happens that the F30 is a fairly big leap in that migration compared to the E90. (For those that say the E90 was hated relative to the E46 when it came out, show me a review from 7 years ago that complains about the E90 being less engaging than the E46. Yes, people hated the styling initially, and it did get bigger and heavier, but very few complained about the E90 being softer than the E46.)

So if that migration is a good thing for you, great, enjoy the F30. If not, that's fine too, you'll just have to hold onto your E90 longer and hope that the new 2er will be more engaging. Isn't this all there is to this endless argument?