[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I think this would be a good race, both of you guys should be high 11/low 12 sec cars with similar bolt ons.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=829787

Minus the 5 MPH trap difference at the end of the 1/4 in my car which was leaking boost ...

On the highway, it would be a hilarious result...

...better yet, the new M4 will have a tough time with some of us

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Minus the 5 MPH trap difference at the end of the 1/4 in my car which was leaking boost ...

On the highway, it would be a hilarious result...

...better yet, the new M4 will have a tough time with some of us

Yeah, I noticed the traps, the sub 12 sec ET I am sure is due the traction of the DRs.

The m4 will have a tough time with you stock, sure. You are also comparing the N54 which the aftermarket has embraced and had 6+ years to flood you with tons of options.

Do you not think the N55 market will flourish and more and more F30 parts will not be developed over the next 5 years?


My setup would likely give you a VERY hard time, you seem VERY confident lol. People have not put you in your place to remind you of all the faster cars out there in the big big world?m I kid I kid.

When my top end is done this month, I am expecting 120-125mph traps. But I am not going to be THAT confident to call the world out-not until it's dialed in and it's quite a handful to drive lol.

[Kayani_1]

Yes, some thing are subjective and some things are objective. However, some things can be blown out of context or made to look like they are merely nothing.

I think you are bit guilty of both with the following post Jamesons. Now we all know two different cars on two different days and track conditions with maybe even different drivers behind the wheel will produce results all over the spectrum. I think anyone that has tracked their cars a bit knows that even same exact car on different day with even the same driver will give up different results based on track conditions.

Thus, you suggesting that a F30 335i M-sport will be equal to E92 335is based on the lighning lap is a bit juvenile. However, lets play along.

Lets take the all new after 7 years F30 335i sport line and put it up against some the E9x generation 335i cars. So the 335is based on 7 year old technology and chassis is .6 sec faster. Now lets take for a minute the car I have parked in my garage that is not even a 335is version but rather a 2007 N54 335i 6-speed auto. A 2007 335i 6-speed auto car posted 3:10.5 which is 2.7 sec. faster then the all new F30 335i N55 equipped sport line with 8-speed auto with its 3:13.2 lap times. So all jokes aside you want me to be happy with a car and jump up and down in joy that it took BMW 7 years to design an all new car that is slower and has worse steering feel.

No such thing happened in past E36 vs E46. The E46 was superior in performance. The E46 vs E9x the E9x was superior in performance. So please give it a break as your point that you made below is the weakest of all your arguments so far

I think in past where you made sense I have agreed with you. However, I think you are stuck on your point of view and not willing to see mine. Now it is to a point where you are bringing up things that back fire on you.

So take a deep breath and say it with me......that F30 335i M-sport offers nothing substantial in upgrades over a 2013 E92 335is for buyers in term of driving dynamics. Instead you get a more diluted version that leaves you wanting for the older version

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Some things are objective and some things subjective.

When the Lightning Lap was done last year, they had a NON MSport F30 335 with 19's and said great things about it and the time was the same for the years before where they did a lap in the E92 335is. Now keep in mind, there is not yet an equivelant to the IS, but in Canada they are selling for '14 an 335 with the PPK, exhaust, brakes, etc-kind of an F30 335is if you will. So for the new car in non top of the performing guise can equal the previous top of the line performing model(not including the M3), it should indicate there is improvement at work in how the car drives. Especially since the IS has the N54(with even more power in IS tune) which many support has more power than the N55 of the F30.

Now we are not talking about what the steering felt like between those two cars being lapped. That is very hard to quantify as it's opinion. But those lap times are far more concrete.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Yes, some thing are subjective and some things are objective. However, some things can be blown out of context or made to look like they are merely nothing.

I think you are bit guilty of both with the following post Jamesons. Now we all know two different cars on two different days and track conditions with maybe even different drivers behind the wheel will produce results all over the spectrum. I think anyone that has tracked their cars a bit knows that even same exact car on different day with even the same driver will give up different results based on track conditions.

Thus, you suggesting that a F30 335i M-sport will be equal to E92 335is based on the lighning lap is a bit juvenile. However, lets play along.

Lets take the all new after 7 years F30 335i sport line and put it up against some the E9x generation 335i cars. So the 335is based on 7 year old technology and chassis is .6 sec faster. Now lets take for a minute the car I have parked in my garage that is not even a 335is version but rather a 2007 N54 335i 6-speed auto. A 2007 335i 6-speed auto car posted 3:10.5 which is 2.7 sec. faster then the all new F30 335i N55 equipped sport line with 8-speed auto with its 3:13.2 lap times. So all jokes aside you want me to be happy with a car and jump up and down in joy that it took BMW 7 years to design an all new car that is slower and has worse steering feel.

No such thing happened in past E36 vs E46. The E46 was superior in performance. The E46 vs E9x the E9x was superior in performance. So please give it a break as your point that you made below is the weakest of all your arguments so far

I think in past where you made sense I have agreed with you. However, I think you are stuck on your point of view and not willing to see mine. Now it is to a point where you are bringing up things that back fire on you.

So take a deep breath and say it with me......that F30 335i M-sport offers nothing substantial in upgrades over a 2013 E92 335is for buyers in term of driving dynamics. Instead you get a more diluted version that leaves you wanting for the older version

I am the one who made those statements, now you want to use my reasoning against me lol.

But since it IS TRUE, the different drivers, days etc argument. It still showed your IS to be slower than the F30, but both were slower than the 335i from 07.

So all you would have to do is change all your posts from 335is and instead to N54 335i as per the 3:10 lap, and I no longer have a course of action.

Sounds fair to me

BUT


It's still not apples to apples. The E92 is still the car tested and the F30 is not the same as the two door version, the F32 which is supposed to have different suspension geometry including center of gravity.

So no one is asking you to felate the F30, but how about we wait and give the model line a chance to grow and see what the F32 does which is the actual successor to the car you own. If it winds up being slower, it is fine with me. I don't have a horse in the race as I own a 4dr and 328. Things should just be fair is all.

[Kayani_1]

LOL, at least I know this much my that I would take the 7-speed DCT performance transmission that is available on last generation E92/E93 335is over the F30 8-speed.

I hope you did better search on your pre-order then you did on performance transmission versions available on both versions.

Originally Posted by dinonz

You sure about that? No 8-speed in the 335i?

How much do you really know?

[KevRyd]

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...an-test-review

From the article:
The 335i loves being hurried down country two-lanes with a radar detector on guard, showing the same easy comfort with a quick pace as the previous model did. If the definition of good steering is that which allows the driver to place the car exactly where desired, the 335i’s still got it. Its clarity is undimmed by the switch to electric assist and a new, optional variable-ratio steering gear, even if its feedback is more opaque. Surface textures and impacts are indeed tuned out by this rack-and-pinion setup (though not by the body’s sound insulation, which lets a surprising amount of tire noise through), but the sense of control doesn’t really diminish.

The on-center window of slackness is just wide enough to hold the car on a straight path but not too wide or too dead—as we’ve noticed in the 5- and 7-series—to allow wandering. Meanwhile, the effort rises gratifyingly as you turn in. Unless you’re the type that likes wheel shudders through every apex, the new 3 leaves little to complain about.

The wheel does feel a little overassisted with the Driving Dynamics Control (DDC) console switch—which this year finds its way from BMW’s bigger cars into the 3-series as standard equipment—set on Comfort. But bump it up to Sport or Sport +, and a natural heft returns.


Looks to me that this article had it right. Road noise is diminished, but no less capable than the previous car.

Kevin

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Yeah, I noticed the traps, the sub 12 sec ET I am sure is due the traction of the DRs.

I am happy to see that you understand this... most probably wouldn't.

The m4 will have a tough time with you stock, sure. You are also comparing the N54 which the aftermarket has embraced and had 6+ years to flood you with tons of options.

The M4 is a big questions at the moment... it comes down to what else can BMW do with the turbo setup assuming it's still a 3.0L... The N54 was a very big deal at the time and they knew they screwed up when the M3s were slower than a tuned 335i. They are very close to the limit at the moment with that displacement and remember they can't cannibalize the M5. In addition, BMW may be getting tougher on the turning market with the newer ECU's which are time and time again tougher to crack. The new M5 still doesn't have a true, full out tune... instead just basic remaps which are partially directly based off stolen BMW factory maps.

Do you not think the N55 market will flourish and more and more F30 parts will not be developed over the next 5 years?

No, not on the stock turbo... With turbo upgrades sure anything is possible but that can be said about many platforms, stock bolt on setup will not be close it's simply a CFM limitation and for some reason many can't understand that.

My setup would likely give you a VERY hard time, you seem VERY confident lol. People have not put you in your place to remind you of all the faster cars out there in the big big world?m I kid I kid.

(yes, your z4 would kick my ass but is it a lowly 3 series w 4 seats and still retains every imaginable DD characteristic while getting 24-25 MPG?)

When my top end is done this month, I am expecting 120-125mph traps. But I am not going to be THAT confident to call the world out-not until it's dialed in and it's quite a handful to drive lol.

.

[rallybull]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

It is completely fair to compare an out going E92 335is with all new F30 335i.

Sez who?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I am happy to see that you understand this... most probably wouldn't.

The M4 is a big questions at the moment... it comes down to what else can BMW do with the turbo setup assuming it's still a 3.0L... The N54 was a very big deal at the time and they knew they screwed up when the M3s were slower than a tuned 335i. They are very close to the limit at the moment with that displacement and remember they can't cannibalize the M5. In addition, BMW may be getting tougher on the turning market with the newer ECU's which are time and time again tougher to crack. The new M5 still doesn't have a true, full out tune... instead just basic remaps which are partially directly based off stolen BMW factory maps.


No, not on the stock turbo... With turbo upgrades sure anything is possible but that can be said about many platforms, stock bolt on setup will not be close it's simply a CFM limitation and for some reason many can't understand that.

(yes, your z4 would kick my ass but is it a lowly 3 series w 4 seats and still retains every imaginable DD characteristic while getting 24-25 MPG?)

I come from growing up at Englishtown, I know more than I should about drag racing but enjoy people on forums such as yourself who don't just TALK about what their cars can do-you have a slip to prove it.

Yes, I know the capabilities of the N54. I know the N55 might not have as easy a path, I am just saying=lets give it time to figure itself out. The F30 is a zygote, the F80 even more so. Let's not poo-poo on it too quick just because the N54 was so great to modify. Its of no ones benefit if the N55 or S55 winds up being a crippled dog. What the S55 might have is REVS. If it makes tuned N54 or N55 like power but for an extra 1000rpms, wouldn't that be somethin'?

My M is a Z3M, not cool enough to have something as NEW and wonderful as a Z4M lol. Yep, only two seats. That is the point, the mundane but just entertaining enough not to be boring F30 allows me the Z3M. You would not believe it, but my car is quite DD'able(AC on, sitting in traffic-heated power seats, power top-amenities you expect and HEAVY because of it), I do it for much of the year and my MPG is silly good. I average 26-27 when being fairly nice, and as low as 20-21 with a good amount of WOT and 7000k rpm shifts. Part of that is the 42lb injectors, but I might be going to 15psi and might have maxed them out which necessitates 60lb'ers. That will not be good for MPG lol.

[Kayani_1]

Maybe, my reading comprehension is failing me my friend.

But where in the post I replied to you I used your reasoning. I just merely replied to your statement about 335is vs F30 335i sport line. By the way I do not have to change 335is to 07 335i. Even though I own an 07 335i with the best possible lightning lap times ever recorded. I am comparing all E9x variants with all F30 variants. As for 4 series do not even get me started on that over priced rip off blah version of the concept 4 series.


To me it is sad that out of the box sport line F30's do not put a clear distance between them and the E9x sport variants.

I am pretty sure people that are not happy and are complaining will cause BWM to further develop both platforms. They need to step up and offer more upgraded engine close to 340-350hp underrated style. Fix the stupid electric steering. Fix the cheap plastic on dash and doors. Make an LCI version of 435i to make it look like concept 4 series. Until all those things are done BMW is not getting any props from me.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I am the one who made those statements, now you want to use my reasoning against me lol.

But since it IS TRUE, the different drivers, days etc argument. It still showed your IS to be slower than the F30, but both were slower than the 335i from 07.

So all you would have to do is change all your posts from 335is and instead to N54 335i as per the 3:10 lap, and I no longer have a course of action.

Sounds fair to me

BUT


It's still not apples to apples. The E92 is still the car tested and the F30 is not the same as the two door version, the F32 which is supposed to have different suspension geometry including center of gravity.

So no one is asking you to felate the F30, but how about we wait and give the model line a chance to grow and see what the F32 does which is the actual successor to the car you own. If it winds up being slower, it is fine with me. I don't have a horse in the race as I own a 4dr and 328. Things should just be fair is all.

[Kayani_1]

Says me

Originally Posted by tojo_m

Sez who?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Maybe, my reading comprehension is failing me my friend.

But where in the post I replied to you I used your reasoning. I just merely replied to your statement about 335is vs F30 335i sport line. By the way I do not have to change 335is to 07 335i. Even though I own an 07 335i with the best possible lightning lap times ever recorded. I am comparing all E9x variants with all F30 variants. As for 4 series do not even get me started on that over priced rip off blah version of the concept 4 series.


To me it is sad that out of the box sport line F30's do not put a clear distance between them and the E9x sport variants.

I am pretty sure people that are not happy and are complaining will cause BWM to further develop both platforms. They need to step up and offer more upgraded engine close to 340-350hp underrated style. Fix the stupid electric steering. Fix the cheap plastic on dash and doors. Make an LCI version of 435i to make it look like concept 4 series. Until all those things are done BMW is not getting any props from me.

Post #241

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Yeah, I noticed that.

I mean in '07 we are still talking E92 on 19" wheels with an N54 and the '11 car is still an E92 on 19" wheels with the fast shifting DCT and higher tune N54. Why was the '07 faster, dunno. Could be weather, driver, extra strong example. But that line of reasoning can negate half the arguments we are having right now.

Now, again.

The reason why it's not fair is that its premature.

You stated ALL E9x variants vs ALL F30 variants. We know ALL E9x variants, because well-there are no more. You don't know all F30 variants, because you are unable to time travel. I am just saying lets wait and see what the F30/F32 are capable of before we officially crap on the platform. Crap, the E90 at first, there was no N54 to even talk about. What a difference a year made there. Let's give the F30 time to spread it's wings. I personally am not completely sold on it but think it will get better, things like EPS tuning, higher performing N55 variants coming ETC. What is so wrong with that?

[ramuman]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Some things are objective and some things subjective.

When the Lightning Lap was done last year, they had a NON MSport F30 335 with 19's and said great things about it and the time was the same for the years before where they did a lap in the E92 335is. Now keep in mind, there is not yet an equivelant to the IS, but in Canada they are selling for '14 an 335 with the PPK, exhaust, brakes, etc-kind of an F30 335is if you will. So for the new car in non top of the performing guise can equal the previous top of the line performing model(not including the M3), it should indicate there is improvement at work in how the car drives. Especially since the IS has the N54(with even more power in IS tune) which many support has more power than the N55 of the F30.

Now we are not talking about what the steering felt like between those two cars being lapped. That is very hard to quantify as it's opinion. But those lap times are far more concrete.

Watching the driver accidentally hit the wipers (and then flail for a few seconds to turn it off) on a flying lap lends very little credibility to that time.

I sure hope the F32 with the side vents reduces wheel arch turbulence and makes the 3 series a 3 again. You know, because there were never complaints when the E46 and E9xs came out. That way, we can refocus more time on our jobs and make sure we make the numbers to be able to afford a 3k exhaust for a car that costs about as much as the median household income in the US.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I come from growing up at Englishtown, I know more than I should about drag racing but enjoy people on forums such as yourself who don't just TALK about what their cars can do-you have a slip to prove it.

Yes, I know the capabilities of the N54. I know the N55 might not have as easy a path, I am just saying=lets give it time to figure itself out. The F30 is a zygote, the F80 even more so. Let's not poo-poo on it too quick just because the N54 was so great to modify. Its of no ones benefit if the N55 or S55 winds up being a crippled dog. What the S55 might have is REVS. If it makes tuned N54 or N55 like power but for an extra 1000rpms, wouldn't that be somethin'?

My M is a Z3M, not cool enough to have something as NEW and wonderful as a Z4M lol. Yep, only two seats. That is the point, the mundane but just entertaining enough not to be boring F30 allows me the Z3M. You would not believe it, but my car is quite DD'able(AC on, sitting in traffic-heated power seats, power top-amenities you expect and HEAVY because of it), I do it for much of the year and my MPG is silly good. I average 26-27 when being fairly nice, and as low as 20-21 with a good amount of WOT and 7000k rpm shifts. Part of that is the 42lb injectors, but I might be going to 15psi and might have maxed them out which necessitates 60lb'ers. That will not be good for MPG lol.

well my level of respect for you went to another level... time to troll elsewhere lol.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by ramuman

Watching the driver accidentally hit the wipers (and then flail for a few seconds to turn it off) on a flying lap lends very little credibility to that time.

I sure hope the F32 with the side vents reduces wheel arch turbulence and makes the 3 series a 3 again. You know, because there were never complaints when the E46 and E9xs came out. That way, we can refocus more time on our jobs and make sure we make the numbers to be able to afford a 3k exhaust for a car that costs about as much as the median household income in the US.

His lap was less than smooth, if anything it might give credence to the F30 having more in it than the 3:13.2. But again, we are trying so hard to have evidence here, from the 3:10 to the this run, fact is, just a different driver could have any one of the two E92s or F30s leapfrog each other.

Originally Posted by ASAP

well my level of respect for you went to another level... time to troll elsewhere lol.

LOL. Thanks.

I found you very non-troll'ish compared to some of the other guys who chime in here. I like discussions with people who know what they are talking about and are not exclusively bench/magazine racers. I know you know what a F'ing 60ft time is and should be.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

LOL, at least I know this much my that I would take the 7-speed DCT performance transmission that is available on last generation E92/E93 335is over the F30 8-speed.

I hope you did better search on your pre-order then you did on performance transmission versions available on both versions.

I did. I got the 6MT like any real driver would

[Kayani_1]

I would say you are justified in trying to assume I would have purchase based blinders. But you must not have known me over the years. I was one of the biggest defenders of F30 before I drove it though.

I am not against the 4 cylinder engines or turbo so that coming to the full circle part does not apply to me. I have made that point many times to folks in past defending BMW's move to 4 cylinder. I also have owned plenty of 4 cylinders and some real high performance versions and my favorite one Suzuki GSXR-1000cc that revs sky high and sounds like a fighter jet. So once again you are preaching to some one who can fully appreciate a good 4 cylinder.

The point that I am making and is being lost at you is that the BMW 4 cylinder lacks a bit of refinement. I am surprised that with your vast knowledge of 4 cylinders you were not able to tell the difference between the smoothness of delivery and noise harshness of NA inline-6 vs turbo inline-4.

Like I said if you had spend driving BMW inline-6 variants back to back with the BMW 4 cylinder turbo variants for extended periods of time then you would definitely understand what I am saying. IMHO, a test drive here and there on one example does not make you an expert.

So when you bring up your experience of 4 cylinders. It is not foreign to me as I have had plenty in that respect. However, we both know comparing similar engines even across manufacturers are a huge difference. It does not do justice as they behave and respond quiet differently.

In this regards BMW still has a lot more to do with refining the 4 cylinder turbo. It is a bit harsh, unrefined, power delivery not as smooth and does not produce desired sounds.

I guess to be fair at the the end I guess my purchase based blinders allow me to see this and your purchase based blinders do not allow you to see it. This is a point where we will have to agree to disagree

Originally Posted by elistan

You said you believe F30 owners' preference for their F30's feel is due to "purchase based bias blinders." With your more-than-a-decade experience driving BMWs other than the F30, can you admit to yourself that you too might have some purchase based bias blinders? All I can tell is that having never driven a BMW before, the E90 was dull and the F30 was exciting. There's no bias there, no preconceived notion of what a BMW should be. Who best to compare the two cars?


I do understand that people prefer the E90 steering feel, but for me personally that's about 5% of what a car is worth - the engine, transmission and handling are a whole lot more important.



The dang engine is so quiet that it's essentially silent to me in the cabin with the windows up at start up and at idle. The only people that hear it are people outside the car and frankly I don't care what they think of the sound. I also come from a long line of 4 cylinder sports cars (S2000, 944, Integra GSR, CBR600RR) so neither the 4 cylinder specific sound nor the NVH are a bother to me.

That's a case, I think, of the car being different but not inferior, however having decades of experience driving BMWs means that that difference is by default inferior to you.

Funny enough, if you find somebody with more than TWO decades of BMW experience, you might find somebody who used to own an E30 M3, last produced 21 years ago in 1992 as far as I know. Which incidentally had a four-cylinder engine - so go back far enough and we come full circle to the F30 328i's four-cylinder being more of a "true" BMW engine.

Regarding the interior, I was immediately put off by the E90 when I sat in it. It looked like a sea of cheap plastic to me - specifically the top and front of the dash. It looks plain and boring. I still get that feeling when I see pics of that interior.

[Kayani_1]

Hey good for you man it is the most fun choice.

That is the best option to go with if you do not have a wifey who refuses to deal with the 6-speed and if you do not have to deal with heavy traffic jams of daily work week commute.

Originally Posted by dinonz

I did. I got the 6MT like any real driver would

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Hey good for you man it is the most fun choice.

That is the best option to go with if you do not have a wifey who refuses to deal with the 6-speed and if you do not have to deal with heavy traffic jams of daily work week commute.

If I had a wifey who refuses to deal with the 6-speed it would be the perfect option! My ex-girlfriend couldn't drive a manual, and I was so glad about that

[Kayani_1]

To be fair I have not read your post #241. I replied to the post above in quotes as that was directed towards me.

None the less if you said those same things in post #241 then you self corrected yourself from the post I quoted above.

Thus, we both then agree as our arguments are the same.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Post #241

?

[Kayani_1]

LOL, coming from some one like you it makes no difference. As you had lost creditability with me a while back. I could care less that you are not happy with my opinions.

Like I told you earlier why don't you go enjoy your F30 335i purchase and don't get offended every time some one does not find it all that you think it is and more. If you are happy good for you.

I do not find it all that and more so you do not have to constantly feel like you have to reply to every post of mine

Originally Posted by KevRyd

You keep spouting these opinions and trying to pass them off as fact. You are loosing credibility every post! (not that you had much to start with.

Kevin

[Kayani_1]

LOL....never thought it would actually work out in this way. You make a good case for going manual with the new C7 stingray instead of sucky 6-speed auto.

Originally Posted by dinonz

If I had a wifey who refuses to deal with the 6-speed it would be the perfect option! My ex-girlfriend couldn't drive a manual, and I was so glad about that