[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The next Diesel introduction will be the X3 , but do not hope for 535d and 335d as the lukewarm reaction to the 335d shows that BMW diesel in the US market works for SAV's , less so for core sedans.

Thanks Scott, just curious, but what was the take rate for the EU of the 335d? I'd be curious if the all automatic setup and relatively slim mileage gains were more to blame than something as simple as Americans won't buy a 3er diesel?

My suspicion is that you guys just offered the wrong diesel and treated us as simpletons, thinking that we'd want as much power as possible, transmission and overall efficiency be damned.

Mercedes has sold diesels in the US with much better take rates, but I suspect that their success has to do with the fact that they don't require you to make as many sacrifices as the 335d required. MB has offered a diesel model between the cost of the gas models, not above it like the 335d was.

I'd posit that a 320d priced above the 328i and below the 335i with an available manual and the same options as the 328i had would be quite successful, but you guys have clearly made up your minds and this has generally been a waste of typing.

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Thanks Scott, just curious, but what was the take rate for the EU of the 335d? I'd be curious if the all automatic setup and relatively slim mileage gains were more to blame than something as simple as Americans won't buy a 3er diesel?

My suspicion is that you guys just offered the wrong diesel and treated us as simpletons, thinking that we'd want as much power as possible, transmission and overall efficiency be damned.

Mercedes has sold diesels in the US with much better take rates, but I suspect that their success has to do with the fact that they don't require you to make as many sacrifices as the 335d required. MB has offered a diesel model between the cost of the gas models, not above it like the 335d was.

I'd posit that a 320d priced above the 328i and below the 335i with an available manual and the same options as the 328i had would be quite successful, but you guys have clearly made up your minds and this has generally been a waste of typing.

What a great summary and analysis. I'll try and add to it.

BMW and most large automotive corporations are totally clueless. They make their product line decisions based purely on focus groups in order to try and achieve a minimum level of consideration from the largest possible range of people in the market. BMW is following the Toyota/Lexus model and is focusing on the bland and unexciting segment of the market hoping to lure people who aren't actively seeking a specific product to their "quality compromises."


I know the goal of all corporations is solely to maximize profits, but this strategy focuses primarily on short term gain while pushing long term viability to the side. Sure you can make the most trendy and overall quality product and make maximum money for awhile, but it is soul and excitement that differentiates the great ones from the also rans. One day another company will offer equal quality but at a better price point and with more soul. It will be like a better version of BMW had they not lost their way. Then BMW will fade. Look at how Hyundai is rapidly catching up and surpassing Toyota to now being widely considered the best Asian automaker by a large many including myself.

BMW needs to follow people like Red Bread's advice. You have to excite people on a new type of product with something splashy and intriguing before you can pump out the generic crap. Image a shockingly affordable and economical low optioned 4 Cylinder Turbo Diesel 1 series or 3 series! Maybe even available with a manual transmission and as a hatch!!

Think of the excitement and interest this could generate among enthusiasts, car people, tree huggers, and bargain hunters alike?

But nah... lets just offer a token overpriced luxo-barge-muscle car (335d) that's not worth anyone's time for an actual purchase.


I don't even care all that much about diesels, I am just one of those 'ol enthusiasts who stalks SCOTT26's posts and is getting bored and annoyed by all the cold mush we keep getting fed. Meanwhile we could be getting products worth buying and cherishing as future collectibles from a company as talented as BMW before governments around the world end the party and have us all driving in identical pods.

And yes I do stalk you SCOTT26 That's the only reason I see threads like this.

My bookmark to M3post is your member page so I can first off follow your posts.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

What you have to remember is that many are making comparisons on how VW can have diesels such as the Jetta and think BMW can do the same.
For one thing in the US it is very difficult for BMW to offer a 3er in terms of how VW position the TDi Jetta. No matter what VW will have you believe the Jetta is not a premium car, neither is VW a premium brand.

For example the US BMW Customer would not accept the standard specification of a typical BMW 320d in all it's basic glory - cloth seats , minimal equipment - that is not the US perception of a BMW and for people to say that "BMW Should do that!" and many have including journalists, it is just not feasible.

A four cylinder diesel will come to the US Market but will be in the X1 SAV.
The next Diesel introduction will be the X3 , but do not hope for 535d and 335d as the lukewarm reaction to the 335d shows that BMW diesel in the US market works for SAV's , less so for core sedans.

In europe , the Geneva show in March will see the 330d and 335d added to the range along with xDrive.

I have a F20 120d Sport here in Germany and it gets 45+ mpg with my heavy right foot and it is still fun to drive. The new F20 is a huge improvement over the past model. It is optioned to the gills and fit, finish and content is no different than the new F30 from my experience.

The issue in the US is like you said- brand cache. I don't think it is necessarily the consumer, but the marketing department fearful of brand dilution. If they offered the 120d in the US my wife would have bought one (she wanted a hatch with the baby) but she went with an Audi A3, though not the diesel bc the wait list was too long, here she has a Clubman as the A3 is about to be redesigned and we can't each have the same car (an agreement of sorts).

In my talks with the Active Hybrid engineers they don't understand the US infatuation with hybrids, they much rather design a diesel Efficient Dynamics edition- cheaper, less components and in the end better economy.

-M

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

In my talks with the Active Hybrid engineers they don't understand the US infatuation with hybrids, they much rather design a diesel Efficient Dynamics edition- cheaper, less components and in the end better economy.

-M

This is the problem. Why force a bunch of engineers to make a product they don't believe in that won't sell well? I see very few MB Hybrids and while BMW offers a hybrid X6 and 7er, they aren't exactly selling well. Stop, let your engineers make a better product with a diesel and see what happens.

I'll never get why a market study of twenty house wives can influence what all consumers receive. If BMW USA is so paranoid about diluting the brand, than why hasn't MINI offered a Cooper D here? I'd be at my dealer tomorrow if they'd just announce a Countryman SD AWD. I'd also buy a 320d Touring for slightly more than what the 328iT will cost, and I know I'm not alone, especially once you include our neighbors to the north.

[amdmaxx]

I wish people would get this. I so much prefer diesel (aka real car) to hybrids...

Originally Posted by mapezzul

In my talks with the Active Hybrid engineers they don't understand the US infatuation with hybrids, they much rather design a diesel Efficient Dynamics edition- cheaper, less components and in the end better economy.

-M

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by amdmaxx

I wish people would get this. I so much prefer diesel (aka real car) to hybrids...

Your preaching to the choir.... I've been saying that for a long time BUT it takes a lot of money to undo what Toyota has created in Hybrids being the best thing since sliced bread.

I always use the comparison of when the detergent companies decreased the amount of water they added and made the actual detergent more concentrated and in a smaller bottle.. they spent boat loads on advertising as US consumers see bigger as more=better or less for the same is better on their wallet. Same amount of loads in a smaller package- I'm all for that.

Diesel yields more efficiency per gallon of fuel than gas but it costs more in some cases but as long as it is not more than 25% more (low average of how much more mpg a diesel gets) you are still going further for the same money.

Most US drivers commute on highways, a diesel is more efficient than a hybrid in this case as well.... if you are in a city then I get hybrids but otherwise it is the marketing people winning the battle.

Rant over...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

Most US drivers commute on highways, a diesel is more efficient than a hybrid in this case as well.... if you are in a city then I get hybrids but otherwise it is the marketing people winning the battle.

In the city, diesels make it so easy to jump off the lights, which is what most Americans feel they need a V8's torque for. Most of us drive like total wusses on the highway and the actual power is wasted on the majority (helped by low speed limits).

I used to work for Lufthansa and foolishly picked a 525iT the first time I used the carpool. I was immediately amazed at how much quicker the various diesel cars were on the Autobahn and never made the mistake of picking a gas motor again.

[SomeRandomer123]

Originally Posted by Minimization

Yes. I think another forum overestimated those figures that I grabbed.

THE LATEST FIGURES ARE:
25d - I4 Turbocharged - 218hp 450NM
30d - I6 Turbocharged - 258hp 560NM
35d - I6 Twin Turbocharged - 313hp 630NM

The Naturally Aspirated I6 25d is gone.
I believe the Naturally Aspirated I6 25i is also gone, leaving the Turbocharged I4 28i to replace it.

EDIT: The I6 25d is part of the N57 turbocharged family, not naturally aspirated! My mistake!

12th December 2011

[chowser51]

I will just be happy if they release a 3 series diesel with xdrive in the states.

and bring on thermal/night vision. getting tired of being surprised by deer on my way home in the mornings.

[vladberca]

Diesel cars have some great advantages in fuel economy, but this case is much more important in Europe due to the gas price.
Being in US I wouldn't buy a stripped diesel than a turbo petrol with more options because this is a big nonsense
Also in Europe, the no 1 seller (VW) developed some great turbo 4 cyl petrol engines (TSI) which have better performances than their 4 cyl diesels
This trend is followed now by BMW, offering a much better 116i than 116d, also a much better 118i than 118d... 120d is already too expensive and will not have so many models sold

[vladberca]

The line-up of diesels: 20d, 25d, 30d and 35d is awesome, but the prices are somehow too high than the already great 328i and 335i
All in all, by each with his taste

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123

THE LATEST FIGURES ARE:
25d - I4 Turbocharged - 218hp 450NM
30d - I6 Turbocharged - 258hp 560NM
35d - I6 Twin Turbocharged - 313hp 630NM

The Naturally Aspirated I6 25d is gone. *
I believe the Naturally Aspirated I6 25i is also gone, leaving the Turbocharged I4 28i to replace it.

12th December 2011

Thanx for the info. Yesterday I heard some inside info, on sale: 330d this summer, 335d 2013. EU/Continental, dunno about the UK.

Scott also put down some info about that I see.

*The E90 325d I6 also had a turbo on it. The last NA diesel from BMW was a few decades ago, the E30 324d as I recall.

Cheers
Robin

[Thud]

Originally Posted by justinnum1

I read they are probably coming.

Of course they are... and BMW has been busy doing wonderful things with their diesels. While people like to compare the new N20 with the previous generation 335d, the next 335d will probably have at least 300hp if the current 40d motors are any indication. And get even better fuel economy than the E90, with the new transmissions BMW is rolling out.


Consider that Audi has confirmed a bunch of new diesels for the US later this year or early next year: the A6/A8/Q5.

All are mostly likely based on their brand new 3.0TDI motor which is up in power over the older one (current Q7). The next-gen A4 will also have a diesel option when introduced in the US, not sure if 2.0 or 3.0 though.

Audi has also committed to offering a diesel option for every new US-spec Audi by 2015. Mercedes is also innovating its diesels, their latest model in the new ML series is up to 240hp and 450tq I believe.

You think BMW is going to be the *only* European car maker not selling an oil-burning premium sedan in the US? It's just a matter of time. It helps that BMW is getting significantly more power out of their motors than the other guys.

Gotta love competition! If no diesel 3-er returns to the states then I guess I'll have to make do with an A6 TDI for my next car.

[waho]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Thanx for the info. Yesterday I heard some inside info, on sale: 330d this summer, 335d 2013. EU/Continental, dunno about the UK.

Scott also put down some info about that I see.

*The E90 325d I6 also had a turbo on it. The last NA diesel from BMW was a few decades ago, the E30 324d as I recall.

Cheers
Robin

Yesterday is already some months ago... and I don't think have heard anything of 6-cylinder diesels in a F30 at the Geneva motor show...
Where did you here about 330d this summer???

[Jan van Zyl]

Coming from a F25 X3 2011 2.0D: this vehicle just drives so much nicer than my 2000 Audi A6 2.7 (bi-) Turbo - torque is 380Nm vs 310. The modern turbodiesel behaves quite a bit like the beloved US gasoline V8: don't like high revs (specialist V8's excluded) and high torque - which results in low rpm, relaxed high way cruising - but massive overtaking ability. I agree with some posters here - should BMW introduce their 2.0D in the US - in whichever series they choose - it may just be such a runaway success that the high profit, high glamour specialist-/niche models may suffer. With the new "PowerPack" stuff available for the 2.0D - it may just be the trigger to kill the 3.0 I6 (diesel) - how sad though that may be (as the new I4 gasoline replacing the old I6 2.8) The proposed diesel hybrid for the new X5 may just be sufficient to placate the green conscience too. The past weekend travelled 1000 km in my X3 - currently has 14 600 km on the clock - and was just again amazed at a fuel consumption of 7.3 L/100km or 32 US mpg or 38.7 Imp. Mpg @ average speed of 142.5 km/hr or 88.5 mph. This achieved in complete silence and comfort - with but the minutest of wind noise. I do think that currently US motorists are being robbed of a wonderful, powerful and economic engine. Perhaps time to petition the corporate bean counters - and perhaps through a forum poll would be the best way to start such petition.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by waho

Yesterday is already some months ago... and I don't think have heard anything of 6-cylinder diesels in a F30 at the Geneva motor show...
Where did you here about 330d this summer???

My BMW dealer told me that.

[TurboT]

On the price and performance point of view 330d would fit perfectly between 328i and 335i models, especially with xDrive.