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      01-28-2013, 01:11 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPACEMANRICK View Post
Didn't you read his post, he never even drove the S4....probably because it doesn't have the fancy blue and white ornament on the front of the car.....
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...door-firepower

I test drove the 2012 S4 twice, the first time I was impressed, the second time the novelty had worn off and it was an ok test drive. To his credit though, granted the 335i is rated 300hp and the S4 has come ahead in most if not all comparisons I have seen, there is still a lot of division out there over which is better. The article above even has the 4 testers debating which one there would own, 3 of the 4 had the 335i on their short list. In this comparison, it came out just a little over 1s ahead on their track. Now if you were to toss in the AWD 335i I think we can all agree that the 335 x drive will at a minimum reduce that difference and at most beat the S4. It is very debatable which is better, driver preferences will determine the better car for the owner.

Out of interest, my m sport has x drive and the 19" staggered summer performance tires. I could be wrong but I suspect this one could kill the S4, only a timed test will prove this, until then...
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      01-28-2013, 01:51 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...door-firepower

I test drove the 2012 S4 twice, the first time I was impressed, the second time the novelty had worn off and it was an ok test drive. To his credit though, granted the 335i is rated 300hp and the S4 has come ahead in most if not all comparisons I have seen, there is still a lot of division out there over which is better. The article above even has the 4 testers debating which one there would own, 3 of the 4 had the 335i on their short list. In this comparison, it came out just a little over 1s ahead on their track. Now if you were to toss in the AWD 335i I think we can all agree that the 335 x drive will at a minimum reduce that difference and at most beat the S4. It is very debatable which is better, driver preferences will determine the better car for the owner.

Out of interest, my m sport has x drive and the 19" staggered summer performance tires. I could be wrong but I suspect this one could kill the S4, only a timed test will prove this, until then...
Audi makes performance AWD cars and BMW makes performance RWD. X-drive is not a performance enhancement and is made solely for the purpose of selling cars in colder climates. Furthermore, at the time this article was written, X-drive cars lacked performance suspensions, performance tires, and rode higher then their counterparts. A x-drive e90 would have been romped by the S4 solely based on these facts. Now at least BMW offers an M-sport package that addresses this problems.

I just don't know why you think your M-sport 335i x-drive would kill and S4? The weight of both are very similar, the S4 engine is under-rated at 335 hp, and every single performance test, acceleration, track, etc... has the S4 kicking the F30's ass. Your staggered wheels must make you a better driver then all the professionals and motor journalists who have tested both cars.
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      01-28-2013, 02:01 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by nal13 View Post
Audi makes performance AWD cars and BMW makes performance RWD. X-drive is not a performance enhancement and is made solely for the purpose of selling cars in colder climates. Furthermore, at the time this article was written, X-drive cars lacked performance suspensions, performance tires, and rode higher then their counterparts. A x-drive e90 would have been romped by the S4 solely based on these facts. Now at least BMW offers an M-sport package that addresses this problems.

I just don't know why you think your M-sport 335i x-drive would kill and S4? The weight of both are very similar, the S4 engine is under-rated at 335 hp, and every single performance test, acceleration, track, etc... has the S4 kicking the F30's ass. Your staggered wheels must make you a better driver then all the professionals and motor journalists who have tested both cars.
Agreed.

If BMW put it's best foot forward by attacking the S4, it would be an RWD M-Sport and not an X-Drive. All I see it doing is add weight when fitted with X-Drive, yet I cannot imagine any performance intention-ed Audi without Quattro. It's not just the marketing to me either.
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      01-28-2013, 02:05 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...door-firepower

I test drove the 2012 S4 twice, the first time I was impressed, the second time the novelty had worn off and it was an ok test drive. To his credit though, granted the 335i is rated 300hp and the S4 has come ahead in most if not all comparisons I have seen, there is still a lot of division out there over which is better. The article above even has the 4 testers debating which one there would own, 3 of the 4 had the 335i on their short list. In this comparison, it came out just a little over 1s ahead on their track. Now if you were to toss in the AWD 335i I think we can all agree that the 335 x drive will at a minimum reduce that difference and at most beat the S4. It is very debatable which is better, driver preferences will determine the better car for the owner.

Out of interest, my m sport has x drive and the 19" staggered summer performance tires. I could be wrong but I suspect this one could kill the S4, only a timed test will prove this, until then...
Actually, the XDrive will make the vehicle overall slower due to weight. The added disturbance of vehicle balance will also change the handling for worse. The BMW AWD only improves launching (0-60) and lowers 1/4 mile time, but certainly traps slower due to added weight. There will be additional parasitic loss of power, but that's probably marginal.

That test linked is not the F30 FWIW.
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      01-28-2013, 02:20 PM   #115
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@Nal and Drob

The reason I say the x drive will be faster around the track is because BMW says X Drive is faster than RWD, by at least 0.3s to 60. I will give you another example, Infiniti makes both RWD and AWD. The AWD does function more like BMW than Audi or Acura. Its been proven that the AWD G37 is faster than the RWD around most tracks. I cant imagine BMW would not be able to accomplish the same with the AWD 3er. Agreed weight is an issue, but if the two are almost 0.3s apart to 60, I think traction has a much greater added advantage than the losses due to weight.

Is there no track times out there for the 3er for both the AWD and RWD, if not then thats just sad.
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      01-28-2013, 02:35 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
@Nal and Drob

The reason I say the x drive will be faster around the track is because BMW says X Drive is faster than RWD, by at least 0.3s to 60. I will give you another example, Infiniti makes both RWD and AWD. The AWD does function more like BMW than Audi or Acura. Its been proven that the AWD G37 is faster than the RWD around most tracks. I cant imagine BMW would not be able to accomplish the same with the AWD 3er. Agreed weight is an issue, but if the two are almost 0.3s apart to 60, I think traction has a much greater added advantage than the losses due to weight.

Is there no track times out there for the 3er for both the AWD and RWD, if not then thats just sad.
You are describing a launch advantage in 0-60. That has little to do with a lap around a track. You are at a dead stop once but carrying the added weight and burdening the brakes for the rest of your lap.
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      01-28-2013, 02:45 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
You are describing a launch advantage in 0-60. That has little to do with a lap around a track. You are at a dead stop once but carrying the added weight and burdening the brakes for the rest of your lap.
This is why I gave you the Infiniti G37 example. The G37 AWD weighs 300lbs more than the RWD G37, does not have a performance based AWD and does not come with the sports suspension like the RWD. The AWD G37 will beat the RWD G37 on the track

Physics has to work the same way for both BMW and Infiniti.
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      01-28-2013, 02:50 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
This is why I gave you the Infiniti G37 example. The G37 AWD weights 300lbs more than the RWD G37, does not have a performance based AWD and does not come with the sports suspension like the RWD. The AWD G37 will beat the RWD G37 on the track

Physics has to work the same way for both BMW and Infiniti.
The Infiniti argument just complicates things. The GTR is awd and its performance enhancing, do we know the lineage of the system and how it does or does not relate to the g37? Do you have magazine tests that show G37s to G37x tests? Are we comparing the 7spd auto of the x to the 6mt of the sport? See how it gets muddy?

Let's just keep it to the BMW.
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      01-28-2013, 03:01 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
The Infiniti argument just complicates things. The GTR is awd and its performance enhancing, do we know the lineage of the system and how it does or does not relate to the g37? Do you have magazine tests that show G37s to G37x tests? Are we comparing the 7spd auto of the x to the 6mt of the sport? See how it gets muddy?

Let's just keep it to the BMW.
I can clear it up for you.

The GTR is on its own platform, if the G37 shared anything with the GTR that is performance related, I would not have a 335i right now. The G37 AWD kicks in from stop to 25mph at which point everything is transferred to the rear tires. AWD will then kick in only when its required, upon loss of traction I guess. Unlike the S4 and Acura TL SH-AWD, no single tire receives more tq than the other 3, this is the same for the 3 series.

The magazine did compare 2 autos, If I can only find it.
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      01-28-2013, 03:27 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
@Nal and Drob

The reason I say the x drive will be faster around the track is because BMW says X Drive is faster than RWD, by at least 0.3s to 60. I will give you another example, Infiniti makes both RWD and AWD. The AWD does function more like BMW than Audi or Acura. Its been proven that the AWD G37 is faster than the RWD around most tracks. I cant imagine BMW would not be able to accomplish the same with the AWD 3er. Agreed weight is an issue, but if the two are almost 0.3s apart to 60, I think traction has a much greater added advantage than the losses due to weight.

Is there no track times out there for the 3er for both the AWD and RWD, if not then thats just sad.
There are track times for 335i but not 335xi because everyone knows that the 335i M sport is the best handling BMW 3er. It is obvious that is the reason you can't find times for both. 0-60 xi is faster because of the traction but the 335xi AWD is performance robbing hence BMW put the similiar AWD of the S4 with the sport diff in the X6M.
Look at all the facts and you should come to the same conclusion. BMW did with the X6M otherwise they would have put in the xi AWD system.

Also check out these links.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/a...35_xi_e90.html

Track S4 335 xi
Autozeitung test track 1:41.80 1:43.10

Last edited by ToyotaBMW; 01-28-2013 at 03:36 PM..
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      01-28-2013, 03:30 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I can clear it up for you.

The GTR is on its own platform, if the G37 shared anything with the GTR that is performance related, I would not have a 335i right now. The G37 AWD kicks in from stop to 25mph at which point everything is transferred to the rear tires. AWD will then kick in only when its required, upon loss of traction I guess. Unlike the S4 and Acura TL SH-AWD, no single tire receives more tq than the other 3, this is the same for the 3 series.

The magazine did compare 2 autos, If I can only find it.
Edit: told ya so!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATTESA

I did not say the GTR and g share platforms, but I forget if its awd is called Altessa or something, though I may be thinking Toyota lol. the G may have something in common with the system of the GTR.
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      01-28-2013, 03:34 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
@Nal and Drob

The reason I say the x drive will be faster around the track is because BMW says X Drive is faster than RWD, by at least 0.3s to 60. I will give you another example, Infiniti makes both RWD and AWD. The AWD does function more like BMW than Audi or Acura. Its been proven that the AWD G37 is faster than the RWD around most tracks. I cant imagine BMW would not be able to accomplish the same with the AWD 3er. Agreed weight is an issue, but if the two are almost 0.3s apart to 60, I think traction has a much greater added advantage than the losses due to weight.

Is there no track times out there for the 3er for both the AWD and RWD, if not then thats just sad.
Its faster to 60 due to initial traction but thats where it ends. It sits higher on softer suspension so it doesnt compare to the S4. BMWs awd is more of a foul weather aid where Audis is a performance aid. Thats probably why you rarely if ever see a magazine compare them...its always S4 and 335 rwd.
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      01-28-2013, 03:34 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
There are track times for 335i but not 335xi because everyone knows that the 335i M sport is the best handling BMW 3er. It is obvious that is the reason you can't find times for both. 0-60 xi is faster because of the traction but the 335xi AWD is performance robbing hence BMW put the similiar AWD of the S4 with the sport diff in the X6M.
Look at all the facts and you should come to the same conclusion. BMW did with the X6M otherwise they would have put in the xi AWD system.
I hesitate to use the word obvious without the track times. Its unfortunate that we cannot settle this with something more official. Agreed the 335i M Sport handles better, which does not necessarily imply its faster, but until we have the times from the professionals, its tough to say which is faster around a track.

BMW has a tendency of inrtoducing new tech in pricier models and then rolling it down to cheaper models. One could argue this is what they are doing with the X6M, not necessarily that they find the 3ers setup to be deficient. Nothing is as black and white just yet
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      01-28-2013, 03:37 PM   #124
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GTR ATTESA is on its own level, the G's is inferior to that one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
Edit: told ya so!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATTESA

I did not say the GTR and g share platforms, but I forget if its awd is called Altessa or something, though I may be thinking Toyota lol. the G may have something in common with the system of the GTR.
ATTESA E-TS (GT-R version)

The 2009 Nissan GT-R uses an updated version of the ATTESA E-TS, which is designed to work with the car's rear transaxle layout. The system is unique in the way that it utilizes two driveshafts under the vehicle's centerline, with a second driveshaft running slightly to the right of the main driveshaft which transfers power to the front wheels. The Ferrari FF also implements a four wheel drive system with a front engine, rear transaxle.

Unlike the previous ATTESA systems which relied heavily on mechanical feedback, the system in the GT-R uses electronic sensors and hydraulically-actuated clutches. It also has a yaw-rate feedback control system, effectively managing slip angle. Front-to-rear torque split can go from 2:98 during a standing start to a maximum of 50:50[1]
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      01-28-2013, 03:37 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
There are track times for 335i but not 335xi because everyone knows that the 335i M sport is the best handling BMW 3er. It is obvious that is the reason you can't find times for both. 0-60 xi is faster because of the traction but the 335xi AWD is performance robbing hence BMW put the similiar AWD of the S4 with the sport diff in the X6M.
Look at all the facts and you should come to the same conclusion. BMW did with the X6M otherwise they would have put in the xi AWD system.

Also check out these links.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/a...35_xi_e90.html

Track S4 335 xi
Autozeitung test track 1:41.80 1:43.10
Ok here is another track the 335xi comparing the S4.
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      01-28-2013, 03:42 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I hesitate to use the word obvious without the track times. Its unfortunate that we cannot settle this with something more official. Agreed the 335i M Sport handles better, which does not necessarily imply its faster, but until we have the times from the professionals, its tough to say which is faster around a track.

BMW has a tendency of inrtoducing new tech in pricier models and then rolling it down to cheaper models. One could argue this is what they are doing with the X6M, not necessarily that they find the 3ers setup to be deficient. Nothing is as black and white just yet
X6M has been out for a long time and the new F30 didn't get the new AWD with sport diff. Either BMW is being cheap or BMW has reserved this performance AWD for the M division only. Either case if the Xdrive is not deficient than why not put the same Xdrive in the X6M? You can argue all you want but really the facts are in front of you which AWD system is not only the better one but which one does not enhance performance. Even BMW know this. I am not saying the Xdrive is crap but it isn't what it was designed for. It was designed for inclement weather.
Also the biggest game changer is the addition of the sport diff. This allows the S4 AWD to put power to the outside wheels in a turn to allow the car to feel more RWD and also turns the car better without applying inside brakes. This can't be said about the 335i or the 335xi, this makes a huge difference in a turn.

Last edited by ToyotaBMW; 01-28-2013 at 03:59 PM..
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      01-28-2013, 03:43 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
ATTESA E-TS (GT-R version)

The 2009 Nissan GT-R uses an updated version of the ATTESA E-TS, which is designed to work with the car's rear transaxle layout. The system is unique in the way that it utilizes two driveshafts under the vehicle's centerline, with a second driveshaft running slightly to the right of the main driveshaft which transfers power to the front wheels. The Ferrari FF also implements a four wheel drive system with a front engine, rear transaxle.

Unlike the previous ATTESA systems which relied heavily on mechanical feedback, the system in the GT-R uses electronic sensors and hydraulically-actuated clutches. It also has a yaw-rate feedback control system, effectively managing slip angle. Front-to-rear torque split can go from 2:98 during a standing start to a maximum of 50:50[1]
Yep, uses an updated version of the system used in the G, look below where it shows the models that share it. The G uses the same iteration as the previous GTR. The R35 GTR got an updated version. But as I said, they are related and should share some things in common.
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      01-28-2013, 03:54 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
X6M has been out for a long time and the new F30 didn't get the new AWD with sport diff. Either BMW is being cheap or BMW has reserved this performance AWD for the M division only. Either case if the Xdrive is not deficient than why not put the same Xdrive in the X6M? You can argue all you want but really the facts are in front of you which AWD system is not only the better one but which one does not enhance performance. Even BMW know this. I am not saying the Xdrive is crap but it isn't what it was designed for. It was designed for inclement weather.

I like your argument that BMW is not using X drive in the X6M because its deficient, I had not thought of that at all and its true.

Dont worry about me, my emotions are not in this at all. I am just curious which is faster. There was the post of the times earlier which had the E90 behind by just over 2 seconds which is great. However the F30 has DHP and is faster than the E90. Did the E90 M Sport X Drive come with staggered summer performance tires? Thats the best case we can use in this search for the truth

Given the 2s diffence, and the fact that we have nothing else going on for us here, can we at least all agree that the F30 will shave some of the 2s difference off. I completely agree if you want nothing to do with this form of bench racing but there is literally nothing else to work with here

Edit
I just checked for the 335i coupe x drive, that did not come with the staggered tire set up.

Last edited by 300hp; 01-28-2013 at 04:21 PM..
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      01-28-2013, 03:57 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
Yep, uses an updated version of the system used in the G, look below where it shows the models that share it. The G uses the same iteration as the previous GTR. The R35 GTR got an updated version. But as I said, they are related and should share some things in common.
The Gs system works like the 3ers. Power is transferred to each axle as needed. In the S4 and Acura TL SH AWD it can be transferred to the tire that needs the most tq at that time. This is why its more superior to our set up.

You are right that it does share with the old GTR, if only it was the new one
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      01-28-2013, 06:15 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Given the 2s diffence, and the fact that we have nothing else going on for us here, can we at least all agree that the F30 will shave some of the 2s difference off. I completely agree if you want nothing to do with this form of bench racing but there is literally nothing else to work with here
No, I don't agree with this logic, it is about as arbitrary as bench racer stuff gets. The burden of proof lies in your court...

It's my experience that a RWD vehicle with grippy tires and less than ~200-250 ft/lbs of torque will not be able to spin the wheels in a straight line above approx 30 MPH. Above this speed, accelerating the vehicle requires overcoming aerodynamic drag, not in putting power to the ground. The xdrive system will clutch the front axle into the drivetrain until approximately 80 MPH. The addition of the xdrive hardware in this case serves 2 purposes - adding an extra 150lbs to the FRONT of the chassis, and additional drivetrain loss due to friction and inertia of moving parts. So really the only advantage gained is in 0-30 MPH acceleration, which should () only occur once. You understand when trap speed is slower the implication is the 335ix has *lower velocity* when completing the 1/4 mile than the 335i does - but the 335ix will have the better 1/4 mile time.

The reason why the S4 is able to compete with a car like the 335i, given it's "heftier" portions, is
(a) The engine is slightly more powerful and more responsive due to supercharging;
(b) The ZF rear diff allows a driver to brake earlier upon turn entry, and torque steer the car out of the apex with maximum exit velocity;
(c) The rear diff also functions as a LSD of sorts, so power is always put to the ground when cornering.

OTOH, the 328i/335i has problems putting power down when cornering - the rear open differential (E-diff) will cause the inside tire to spin due to the rotational difference in tire speed. This is overcome by braking the inside tires, which has the same torque vectoring consequence - albeit manufactured in the worst possible way. This is a significant problem for sports cars - the M3 along with every other high performance sports car comes with a Limited Slip Differential which allows power to be applied equally when wheels are rotating at differing speed.

My guess is the xdrive will feel like the worst of both worlds on the track, any power going to the front wheels while cornering (the "proactive" xdrive will clutch FWD when you mash the gas) will cause the vehicle to understeer - further compounded by the additional nose weight. None of the fancy differentials seen in performance AWD cars will be there (GTR/EVO/STI/997 have torsen front and rear diffs), so you'll spin the inside wheel(s) when attempting to accelerate through a turn - which is how you want to approach an apex in a RWD car - ie use oversteer to realign the nose for exit.

The recent C&D lightening lap called the RS5 (which has same drivetrain as the S4) the "slowest feeling" fast car they drove...ie you don't realize how fast you're going because it doesn't provide the "thrill" of oversteer that you usually associate with high performance sports cars. It'll be interesting to see what BMW decides to do with the new M5, which I read is rumored to come in an AWD variant. But make no mistake, xdrive is there to sell cars in cold weather climates.
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Last edited by drob23; 01-28-2013 at 06:23 PM..
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      01-28-2013, 06:32 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Given the 2s diffence, and the fact that we have nothing else going on for us here, can we at least all agree that the F30 will shave some of the 2s difference off. I completely agree if you want nothing to do with this form of bench racing but there is literally nothing else to work with here
No, I don't agree with this logic, it is about as arbitrary as bench racer stuff gets. The burden of proof lies in your court...

It's my experience that a RWD vehicle with grippy tires and less than ~200-250 ft/lbs of torque will not be able to spin the wheels in a straight line above approx 30 MPH. Above this speed, accelerating the vehicle requires overcoming aerodynamic drag, not in putting power to the ground. The xdrive system will clutch the front axle into the drivetrain until approximately 80 MPH. The addition of the xdrive hardware in this case serves 2 purposes - adding an extra 150lbs to the FRONT of the chassis, and additional drivetrain loss due to friction and inertia of moving parts. So really the only advantage gained is in 0-30 MPH acceleration, which should () only occur once. You understand when trap speed is slower the implication is the 335ix has *lower velocity* when completing the 1/4 mile than the 335i does - but the 335ix will have the better 1/4 mile time.

The reason why the S4 is able to compete with a car like the 335i, given it's "heftier" portions, is
(a) The engine is slightly more powerful and more responsive due to supercharging;
(b) The ZF rear diff allows a driver to brake earlier upon turn entry, and torque steer the car out of the apex with maximum exit velocity;
(c) The rear diff also functions as a LSD of sorts, so power is always put to the ground when cornering.

OTOH, the 328i/335i has problems putting power down when cornering - the rear open differential (E-diff) will cause the inside tire to spin due to the rotational difference in tire speed. This is overcome by braking the inside tires, which has the same torque vectoring consequence - albeit manufactured in the worst possible way. This is a significant problem for sports cars - the M3 along with every other high performance sports car comes with a Limited Slip Differential which allows power to be applied equally when wheels are rotating at differing speed.

My guess is the xdrive will feel like the worst of both worlds on the track, any power going to the front wheels while cornering (the "proactive" xdrive will clutch FWD when you mash the gas) will cause the vehicle to understeer - further compounded by the additional nose weight. None of the fancy differentials seen in performance AWD cars will be there (GTR/EVO/STI/997 have torsen front and rear diffs), so you'll spin the inside wheel(s) when attempting to accelerate through a turn - which is how you want to approach an apex in a RWD car - ie use oversteer to realign the nose for exit.

The recent C&D lightening lap called the RS5 (which has same drivetrain as the S4) the "slowest feeling" fast car they drove...ie you don't realize how fast you're going because it doesn't provide the "thrill" of oversteer that you usually associate with high performance sports cars. It'll be interesting to see what BMW decides to do with the new M5, which I read is rumored to come in an AWD variant. But make no mistake, xdrive is there to sell cars in cold weather climates.

Agreed bench racing sucks and you gave good points above but remember people were slamming the x drive for being bad for performance but it turns out per the only evidence we have the same x drive was only 2s behind the s4. The 335i has lapped behind the S4 between 1 and 3 secs on most tracks. Per this single test we can at least agree the 335i x drive is not giving much up. Continuing with bench racing. Which sucks btw I offered the theory that the f30 x drive will best the E90 in our only track test due to staggered performance tires, DHP and per BMW it is faster than the E90 335i.
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      01-28-2013, 06:47 PM   #132
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You put tires and and a tune on a 335i and it rocks on a track.
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