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      01-28-2013, 06:56 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Agreed bench racing sucks and you gave good points above but remember people were slamming the x drive for being bad for performance but it turns out per the only evidence we have the same x drive was only 2s behind the s4. The 335i has lapped behind the S4 between 1 and 3 secs on most tracks. Per this single test we can at least agree the 335i x drive is not giving much up. Continuing with bench racing. Which sucks btw I offered the theory that the f30 x drive will best the E90 in our only track test due to staggered performance tires, DHP and per BMW it is faster than the E90 335i.
The differences are so small that most here wouldn't be able to notice. Having said that, in the hands of a Pro the S4 is superior to 335xi....even with staggered set up. The awd systems are very different and built for different purposes. I'm really surprised that BMW didn't offer a different awd system and or lower firmer sport suspension on new xi to compete wit it's main competitor.
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      01-28-2013, 07:01 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Agreed bench racing sucks and you gave good points above but remember people were slamming the x drive for being bad for performance but it turns out per the only evidence we have the same x drive was only 2s behind the s4. The 335i has lapped behind the S4 between 1 and 3 secs on most tracks. Per this single test we can at least agree the 335i x drive is not giving much up. Continuing with bench racing. Which sucks btw I offered the theory that the f30 x drive will best the E90 in our only track test due to staggered performance tires, DHP and per BMW it is faster than the E90 335i.
The differences are so small that most here wouldn't be able to notice. Having said that, in the hands of a Pro the S4 is superior to 335xi....even with staggered set up. The awd systems are very different and built for different purposes. I'm really surprised that BMW didn't offer a different awd system and or lower firmer sport suspension on new xi to compete wit it's main competitor.

It's a drivers race at the end of the day, 2s is so close that a mistake from any driver will change the result significantly. You can't go wrong with either one. Can't believe it took me two Infiniti Gs to join the twin turbo party lol.
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      01-28-2013, 07:12 PM   #135
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It's a drivers race at the end of the day, 2s is so close that a mistake from any driver will change the result significantly. You can't go wrong with either one. Can't believe it took me two Infiniti Gs to join the twin turbo party lol.
Your car is a single turbo, a twin scroll. The n54 was a twin turbo.
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      01-28-2013, 07:26 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by 335BBS View Post
The differences are so small that most here wouldn't be able to notice. Having said that, in the hands of a Pro the S4 is superior to 335xi....even with staggered set up. The awd systems are very different and built for different purposes. I'm really surprised that BMW didn't offer a different awd system and or lower firmer sport suspension on new xi to compete wit it's main competitor.
I'll admit that I'm new to the scene, but does BMW really care about competing with the S4? The 3 series is such a high volume seller compared to the S4 which are pretty rare on US roads. They have the A4 beat easily with the 328, and are now trying to sell even more with the 320i. Just a quick look on wikipedia and you see

e36 - length 174.5 in
e46 - length 176.0 in
e92 - length 178.2 in
f30 - length 182.0 in
For reference the e39 5 series was 185.8 in

Appears like the car is getting bigger and more luxurious. Whether this is a good or bad thing is for another debate.
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      01-28-2013, 07:50 PM   #137
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BMW are mainly built as RWD and AWD is added as after thought (though may be at pretty early stage). So it has advantages of RWD car with good front / rear weight distribution. AWD may not add much to dynamics unless there is traction issue (eg at launch) and add to wt. of the car at front axle
Audi has much to gain from AWD as its models are usually front heavy and sending power to rear helps it drive like RWD
But I doubt quattro is more performance oriented as compared to xdrive since they are both full time all wheel drive always providing some power (40% to front axle in quattro and if I remember correctly 30% in xdrive) to front axle and changing it as needed.
The sports differential at rear (clutch based ) is an added option and is not standard in S models. It definitely give advantage when coming out of corners as it transfer power to outer wheel.
At the end of the day S4 is more powerful which alone explains the performance advantage.
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      01-28-2013, 07:53 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
It's a drivers race at the end of the day, 2s is so close that a mistake from any driver will change the result significantly. You can't go wrong with either one. Can't believe it took me two Infiniti Gs to join the twin turbo party lol.
Your car is a single turbo, a twin scroll. The n54 was a twin turbo.
Lol, so I joined the wrong party
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      01-28-2013, 08:02 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I'll admit that I'm new to the scene, but does BMW really care about competing with the S4? The 3 series is such a high volume seller compared to the S4 which are pretty rare on US roads. They have the A4 beat easily with the 328, and are now trying to sell even more with the 320i. Just a quick look on wikipedia and you see

e36 - length 174.5 in
e46 - length 176.0 in
e92 - length 178.2 in
f30 - length 182.0 in
For reference the e39 5 series was 185.8 in

Appears like the car is getting bigger and more luxurious. Whether this is a good or bad thing is for another debate.
F30 is still smaller than A4 (length 185 in). But Audi cars are definitely getting more powerful and performance oriented.
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      01-28-2013, 08:07 PM   #140
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But I doubt quattro is more performance oriented as compared to xdrive since they are both full time all wheel drive always providing some power (40% to front axle in quattro and if I remember correctly 30% in xdrive) to front axle and changing it as needed.
The sports differential at rear (clutch based ) is an added option and is not standard in S models. It definitely give advantage when coming out of corners as it transfer power to outer wheel.
At the end of the day S4 is more powerful which alone explains the performance advantage.
The quattro you get with a B8 DSG S4 uses the crown center differential, which is a torque sensing device capable of 2-98 to 98-2 torque split. The older quattro uses a torsen diff capable of I think 18-82 to 82-18 with the weakness of essentially becoming an open diff when one axle completely loses traction (hence all those video comparisons on youtube).

In general, a torque sensing differential is preferable to an electronic one, which require more advanced controller implementations that normal vehicle ecu's don't provide. Piggybacking the AWD controller on the ABS computer is not going to work very well in performance situations. The "advanced" AWD control systems often find themselves on expensive dedicated platforms, such as GT-R, Evo, STI - where people are paying a premium for AWD. I don't think that quattro is really in the category with those, but I do think it's superior to xdrive and other clutched awd systems commonly seen like haldex.
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      01-28-2013, 08:57 PM   #141
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This is like comparing g37 to 335i, instead it's in the other direction. You can get a g37 for much less than a 335i, and a 335i for much less than an s4. (This is at least true for socal, each being a $6k price diff.)

Things you'll still have to trade off though:

1) Fuel Economy (18/28 vs 23/33)
2) Smaller back seat
3) Reliability (ref. consumer reports)
4) Depreciation (ref. consumer reports)

BMW is more well rounded now. So what if it can't beat an s4 on the track, it does everything else way better. If i wanted a track car i'd get an M3, I need a DD. Which is why BMW won me over.
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      01-28-2013, 09:21 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkTrigger View Post
This is like comparing g37 to 335i, instead it's in the other direction. You can get a g37 for much less than a 335i, and a 335i for much less than an s4. (This is at least true for socal, each being a $6k price diff.)

Things you'll still have to trade off though:

1) Fuel Economy (18/28 vs 23/33)
2) Smaller back seat
3) Reliability (ref. consumer reports)
4) Depreciation (ref. consumer reports)

BMW is more well rounded now. So what if it can't beat an s4 on the track, it does everything else way better. If i wanted a track car i'd get an M3, I need a DD. Which is why BMW won me over.
Not really sure where consumer reports getting those resale values from. Its hard to touch a good used B8 S4 for less then 40 K. Just went on kelly blue book at checked my cars value against one of my buddies who has the same year 335 x drive sedan. The sticker on my car was just over 52 K and that includes all the options listed in my signature. My buddy bought a fully loaded 335 x drive with a sticker of 58K, paid 52K. Assuming both cars are in very good condition, the blue book on my S4 37.5K and his BMW is 30 K even. The audi had a depreciation of 28.5% from MSRP compared to 48.3% on the BMW. That is huge!!! The S4 holds it value better.
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      01-28-2013, 09:35 PM   #143
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Not really sure where consumer reports getting those resale values from. Its hard to touch a good used B8 S4 for less then 40 K. Just went on kelly blue book at checked my cars value against one of my buddies who has the same year 335 x drive sedan. The sticker on my car was just over 52 K and that includes all the options listed in my signature. My buddy bought a fully loaded 335 x drive with a sticker of 58K, paid 52K. Assuming both cars are in very good condition, the blue book on my S4 37.5K and his BMW is 30 K even. The audi had a depreciation of 28.5% from MSRP compared to 48.3% on the BMW. That is huge!!! The S4 holds it value better.
See, I equipped a new 2013 s4 the same way my 335i M sport was optioned and it was 62k, with the dealer only discounting it to 58k. My car cost 52k. I was not comparing 335xi since there are none here in Cali. So it's 6k more just like the g37 was 6k less than 52k, I had a firm price of 46k.

I was just going off of what Consumer reports had listed since they have easy side by side comparo's which is unbiased and very critical.
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      01-28-2013, 10:29 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addm View Post
BMW are mainly built as RWD and AWD is added as after thought (though may be at pretty early stage). So it has advantages of RWD car with good front / rear weight distribution. AWD may not add much to dynamics unless there is traction issue (eg at launch) and add to wt. of the car at front axle
Audi has much to gain from AWD as its models are usually front heavy and sending power to rear helps it drive like RWD
But I doubt quattro is more performance oriented as compared to xdrive since they are both full time all wheel drive always providing some power (40% to front axle in quattro and if I remember correctly 30% in xdrive) to front axle and changing it as needed.
The sports differential at rear (clutch based ) is an added option and is not standard in S models. It definitely give advantage when coming out of corners as it transfer power to outer wheel.
At the end of the day S4 is more powerful which alone explains the performance advantage.
Sorry you are wrong. Please read the thread again and then also do some research on different types of AWD systems and advantages of each.
Also like I said BMW uses the S4 type AWD on it's X6M with the sport diff and if BMW's M division acknowledges a mechanical AWD system is better than BMW's Xdrive it should be good enough for you to accept it. If you don't than that is your problem.
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      01-28-2013, 11:02 PM   #145
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Before my e92 I had an 07 A4. Had it for 6 years was an excellent car and got basically 50% of its value back when it was sold. The BMW is a great car but the audi was really well built and had a quality feel you notice after driving many cars. People will have lemons regardless. You buy a car for your needs, BMWs drive different then Audis and thats ok there both great cars!
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      01-28-2013, 11:27 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
Sorry you are wrong. Please read the thread again and then also do some research on different types of AWD systems and advantages of each.
Also like I said BMW uses the S4 type AWD on it's X6M with the sport diff and if BMW's M division acknowledges a mechanical AWD system is better than BMW's Xdrive it should be good enough for you to accept it. If you don't than that is your problem.
1. Most of the advanced performance oriented awd system like in GTR, Lancer evo are electronically controlled clutch based system. The rear sport differential on S4 is also electronic. I just depends how fast the system acts.
2. The difference between quatrro vs xdrive comes down to how fast xdrive acts and nobody has hard facts on that except their own expert opinion.
3. My point was xdrive is unlikely to provide advantage to 3 series unless there is left/right torque vectoring which will help in cornering. S4 need for awd and that optional rear sport deferential is more because of poor wt distribution front/back.
Can you also provide reference regarding your M division quote.

Last edited by addm; 01-28-2013 at 11:48 PM..
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      01-29-2013, 08:08 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by addm View Post
1. Most of the advanced performance oriented awd system like in GTR, Lancer evo are electronically controlled clutch based system. The rear sport differential on S4 is also electronic. I just depends how fast the system acts.
2. The difference between quatrro vs xdrive comes down to how fast xdrive acts and nobody has hard facts on that except their own expert opinion.
3. My point was xdrive is unlikely to provide advantage to 3 series unless there is left/right torque vectoring which will help in cornering. S4 need for awd and that optional rear sport deferential is more because of poor wt distribution front/back.
Can you also provide reference regarding your M division quote.
I agree with your general skepticism, you are correct that the most of the insight we have into the performance differences come from bench racer style hypothesizing. Most of these magazine comparisons are not done in a controlled manner (recent MotorTrend S4 vs 335i used AS tires on 3er), so ultimately all we have are anecdotal opinions. Marketing and sales pitches are the worst way to go, and many opinions we read on boards like this are biased based on preference (post-purchase rationalization?) or first hand knowledge of the wrong platform (b7 s4 vs b8 s4 are *completely* different for example).

With that said, it is a well known fact that the biggest performance barrier for an AWD car is understeer. The rear sports differential in the S4 and X6/MX5/MX6 is a pretty cool way to combat this. Does it turn the S4 into an M3 sans V8? No way, it's still an AWD car.

It really all comes down to personal preference. I live in the snow belt and need AWD because I can't afford a DD and weekend toy. The BMW IMO should be driven in the RWD variant, so I ultimately went with the S4. If I was still in college down in SoCal (ugg do I miss the SB beach), I'd probably be driving a 335i. Was this based on scientific fact, of course not, just how I felt about it. Now this doesn't mean that I don't enjoy the after the fact debate , it's fun learning about this and doing the research - just wish there was better information out there.
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      01-29-2013, 08:45 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkTrigger View Post
This is like comparing g37 to 335i, instead it's in the other direction. You can get a g37 for much less than a 335i, and a 335i for much less than an s4. (This is at least true for socal, each being a $6k price diff.)

Things you'll still have to trade off though:

1) Fuel Economy (18/28 vs 23/33)
2) Smaller back seat
3) Reliability (ref. consumer reports)
4) Depreciation (ref. consumer reports)

BMW is more well rounded now. So what if it can't beat an s4 on the track, it does everything else way better. If i wanted a track car i'd get an M3, I need a DD. Which is why BMW won me over.
GOOD POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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      01-29-2013, 09:00 AM   #149
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[QUOTE=nal13;13388509]Not really sure where consumer reports getting those resale values from. Its hard to touch a good used B8 S4 for less then 40 K. Just went on kelly blue book at checked my cars value against one of my buddies who has the same year 335 x drive sedan. The sticker on my car was just over 52 K and that includes all the options listed in my signature. My buddy bought a fully loaded 335 x drive with a sticker of 58K, paid 52K. Assuming both cars are in very good condition, the blue book on my S4 37.5K and his BMW is 30 K even. The audi had a depreciation of 28.5% from MSRP compared to 48.3% on the BMW. That is huge!!! The S4 holds it value better.[/QUOTE]

Probably because of BMW reliability (lack of) and their constant discounting, particularly at year end.
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      01-29-2013, 09:05 AM   #150
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[QUOTE=335BBS;13390594]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nal13 View Post
Not really sure where consumer reports getting those resale values from. Its hard to touch a good used B8 S4 for less then 40 K. Just went on kelly blue book at checked my cars value against one of my buddies who has the same year 335 x drive sedan. The sticker on my car was just over 52 K and that includes all the options listed in my signature. My buddy bought a fully loaded 335 x drive with a sticker of 58K, paid 52K. Assuming both cars are in very good condition, the blue book on my S4 37.5K and his BMW is 30 K even. The audi had a depreciation of 28.5% from MSRP compared to 48.3% on the BMW. That is huge!!! The S4 holds it value better.[/QUOTE]

Probably because of BMW reliability (lack of) and their constant discounting, particularly at year end.
Well that and BMW is constantly changing models, so previous ones loose value faster. But at 100k, both are probably the same in value.
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      01-29-2013, 09:35 AM   #151
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[QUOTE=shivaswrath;13390616]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 335BBS View Post

Well that and BMW is constantly changing models, so previous ones loose value faster. But at 100k, both are probably the same in value.
Good point. Probably right. I just tried to bail out of my lease...new ones are cheaper!! BMW residual was out by about $8000 too. I sold it and ate the difference. No more BMW.
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      01-29-2013, 11:13 AM   #152
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[QUOTE=335BBS;13390594]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nal13 View Post
Not really sure where consumer reports getting those resale values from. Its hard to touch a good used B8 S4 for less then 40 K. Just went on kelly blue book at checked my cars value against one of my buddies who has the same year 335 x drive sedan. The audi had a depreciation of 28.5% from MSRP compared to 48.3% on the BMW. That is huge!!! The S4 holds it value better.[/QUOTE]
For the Canadian market, Kelly Blue Book is not an accurate predictor of value.
Try Canadian Black Book which is much more accurate for used car values. This is the reference used by most dealers.

Audi has for years suffered faster depreciation than BMW in Canada. The Audi market is much smaller along with their dealer network.
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      01-29-2013, 12:19 PM   #153
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Wouldn't a 335i xDrive have a lower center of gravity than a 335i RWD since the extra drivetrain weight is low in the car?
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      01-29-2013, 01:37 PM   #154
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Wouldn't a 335i xDrive have a lower center of gravity than a 335i RWD since the extra drivetrain weight is low in the car?
Unfortunately the xi isnt offered with sport suspension. It sits higher on softer suspension than the S4. As mentioned earlier, xi was originally developed as a foul weather aid. I'mm really surprised they didnt address this with new model.
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