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      07-03-2013, 10:17 AM   #23
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I disagree on the center of gravity, the lower the COG the better.

Kevin


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Yes, neither of which is accomplished by 19 inch wheels. The side wall is decreased with 19 inch wheels, decreasing traction. Tires on 19 inch wheels are no wider.


No. Heavier wheels do not "load the suspension," they accomplish the opposite; they add unsprung weight; they are below the suspension.

This is the absolutely worst place for increased weight. The detrimental effects of increased unsprung weight greatly exceeds the problems of adding weight anywhere else in the car. Additionally, heavier wheels add to rotational weight. Heavier wheels are the worst thing one can do for performance.

Similarly, adding weight to a car to lower the center of gravity is a fool's errand; the increased weight greatly offsets any benefit. Again, basic physics.
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      07-03-2013, 10:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerometer View Post
I happen to own and have driven on the track with both of the cars mentioned in the article('11 E90 M3 6MT / '13 335i xDrive DHP Sport 8AT). I agree totally with what was laid out. There is no denying that the 335i xDrive has impressive straight line performance. I seriously doubt I could ever hit the 4.4 0-60 rowing my own gears in our M3. So from a stop light king perspective I actually think the 335i xDrive is the winner. (Not that it matters)

However, get into anything with curves and the 335i xDrive feels like a wallowing pig compared to the E9x M3. A combination of the EPS, softer suspension tuning, extra weight from xDrive and increased ride height don't bode well for sporty driving. I think it would have been better if they tested a RWD 335i comparably equipped. Anyone who thinks xDrive gives you any sort of handling advantage on dry roads is delusional.
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      07-03-2013, 10:36 AM   #25
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I think people are mixing up two things. Rwd will probably feel more refined and more fun in the curves. Xdrive however will get the job done but will be clumsy at it due to the additional ride height. That's what MT is saying and the "respectable" figure 8 time, which is better than the 335i rwd btw, is an objective measure of this.

Acelerometer
MT already agrees with you iro curves its right there in my initial post. I actually disagree with your assesment that the xdrive is the straight line king vs the M3, not only is the M3 quicker at 12.6s but its already going about 8mph faster at the 1/4. That's an annihilation by most standards.
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      07-03-2013, 10:43 AM   #26
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What shall we talk about next, auto v. manual? Surely we can figure out a way to mix that into this battle of subjectivity.
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      07-03-2013, 10:46 AM   #27
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This is a VERY Fuel Efficient M3.. that is.. I think this has its own merit.
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      07-03-2013, 10:47 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc503
What shall we talk about next, auto v. manual? Surely we can figure out a way to mix that into this battle of subjectivity.
Lol lets have that one too. I will start AT faster than manual all day long but manual is more fun since you are doing the work by yourself
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      07-03-2013, 10:57 AM   #29
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if they had a square 18" setup were they on all season tires?
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      07-03-2013, 11:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
if they had a square 18" setup were they on all season tires?
I think so.

I do not think there is a summer tire setup on an MSport available in square sizing.

The lateral G of .87 is fairly low, I saw .90 or .91 for an MSport 328 with staggered summer tires. So the wheel and tire setup likely let down the car in this test.
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      07-03-2013, 11:08 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen
Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
if they had a square 18" setup were they on all season tires?
I think so.

I do not think there is a summer tire setup on an MSport available in square sizing.

The lateral G of .87 is fairly low, I saw .90 or .91 for an MSport 328 with staggered summer tires. So the wheel and tire setup likely let down the car in this test.
They said summer tires but a combination of what you said above and if you look closely at the pics those do look like all seasons.
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      07-03-2013, 11:14 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Have you read the article posted?
Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevRyd View Post
I disagree on the center of gravity, the lower the COG the better.
Everything else being equal, a lower center of gravity is better - but only if everything else is equal. If you cannot get rid of the weight, moving it lower is good. However, adding weight is always detrimental to performance, regardless of where it is added.

Extra weight needs to be hauled around. This hampers acceleration, cornering and braking. Sports cars are not made better handling by making the floor of the cars heavier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
if they had a square 18" setup were they on all season tires?
No. They were summer tires:

"We also noticed a slight oddity with our tester's 18-inch summer tires, thanks to some investigating by associate road test editor Carlos Lago. Instead of the staggered setup that comes from the factory, our wheels were the same width all around."
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      07-03-2013, 11:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I think people are mixing up two things. Rwd will probably feel more refined and more fun in the curves. Xdrive however will get the job done but will be clumsy at it due to the additional ride height. That's what MT is saying and the "respectable" figure 8 time, which is better than the 335i rwd btw, is an objective measure of this.

Acelerometer
MT already agrees with you iro curves its right there in my initial post. I actually disagree with your assesment that the xdrive is the straight line king vs the M3, not only is the M3 quicker at 12.6s but its already going about 8mph faster.
If you are talking about the 2012 RWD 335i figure 8 #s the car didn't have the PPK or DHP. So I don't think that is a fair comparison. I called the 335xi w/PPK a stop light king because it can match a 6MT M3 to 60. Even on my best days I seriously doubt I could do a proper launch and shift cleanly to get my M3 to that 4.4 number. A sport slush box equipped F30 335i is lightning quick and consistent and could hit those numbers all day long.

Look I am not criticizing F30 335i xDrives, there is a reason I have one sitting in my garage (identical twin to 330hp's). Our F30 is by FAR the more practical and better daily driver compared to our M3. However, I totally disagree with the notion that xDrive has a dry handling advantage over rear wheel drive.

xDrive has open diffs on both ends relying on DSC+braking for individual wheel control. It isn't comparable with the AWD systems that have limited slips or active torque transfer to individual wheels. These types of awd systems provide a dry handling advantage in corners.
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      07-03-2013, 11:20 AM   #34
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A perfect summary, Accelerometer
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      07-03-2013, 11:59 AM   #35
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Most of us don't drive the car to the limit. If Xdrive extends that pushable limit by adjusting power (understeer/ovefsteer). Would that not create better results.

Also: i understand that extra weight has to be carried, but how much extra weight becomes a hinderance. 10lbs, 40lbs, 100lbs? Sometimes a car that is too light will have issues as the suspension is not optimally loaded.

BMW does not offer summer tires in a squared setup as far as I am aware so if it is square and factory then it is all-season. If it's not square and all-seasons, then who knows what BMW provided for testing.

If the car has DHP with adaptive suspension in sport mode my understanding is that the suspension becomes fairly sporty and stiff. Given the ride height is only 11mm (1cm higher than non XDrive). are we not just splitting hairs on this.

I'm in no way suggesting this care remotely approaches an M car, but this setup should deliver good results straight and curves.

Kevin


Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerometer View Post
If you are talking about the 2012 RWD 335i figure 8 #s the car didn't have the PPK or DHP. So I don't think that is a fair comparison. I called the 335xi w/PPK a stop light king because it can match a 6MT M3 to 60. Even on my best days I seriously doubt I could do a proper launch and shift cleanly to get my M3 to that 4.4 number. A sport slush box equipped F30 335i is lightning quick and consistent and could hit those numbers all day long.

Look I am not criticizing F30 335i xDrives, there is a reason I have one sitting in my garage (identical twin to 330hp's). Our F30 is by FAR the more practical and better daily driver compared to our M3. However, I totally disagree with the notion that xDrive has a dry handling advantage over rear wheel drive.

xDrive has open diffs on both ends relying on DSC+braking for individual wheel control. It isn't comparable with the AWD systems that have limited slips or active torque transfer to individual wheels. These types of awd systems provide a dry handling advantage in corners.
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      07-03-2013, 12:01 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
They said summer tires but a combination of what you said above and if you look closely at the pics those do look like all seasons.
It's just odd.

I think for the MSport if you get a square setup it means all season, if you get staggered, it's summer.

It's as if BMW had a car equipped with square summer tires as found on Sport 397 wheels but mounted them on square 400ms instead.
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      07-03-2013, 12:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevRyd View Post
Sometimes a car that is too light will have issues as the suspension is not optimally loaded.
Wait, what?

You'll have to be so far off on bump/rebound and spring rate amongst a billion other engineering disasters for this to even be a consideration....ever.
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      07-03-2013, 12:43 PM   #38
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Is Camber and other factors no effected in some way by load? If not applicable I appologise.

kevin


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Wait, what?

You'll have to be so far off on bump/rebound and spring rate amongst a billion other engineering disasters for this to even be a consideration....ever.
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      07-03-2013, 12:44 PM   #39
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Are you saying they got an S4 to run 4 flat 0-60mph? I don't think I have ever heard anything like that before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post

Interestingly due to lack if launch control this is 0.4s slower than the S4 they tested but the 335i matches the 13s time in the quarter and is ahead on the trap speed by 0.4 mph
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      07-03-2013, 12:46 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
They had DHP. Launch control and 19s will shave more time off what the got
I think you are definitely wrong about the 19s....
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      07-03-2013, 12:52 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevRyd View Post
NOt much slip with XDrive, 19s are heavier. In a straight line I doubt there would be a huge difference to be staggered. As for the drag reference, have you seen the rear tires on a drag car?

Kevin
agreed completely. staggered setup might make a difference on RWD model, but should make no difference on AWD model. Even with RWD, The difference is related to slip and the initial launch. Once you have rolling inertia, the tire width makes little to no difference assuming constant throttle input (in a straight line, that is).
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      07-03-2013, 12:57 PM   #42
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We talk about the difference in ride height and its effect on the COG and body-roll. If tires extend the footprint of the car making the stance say 2" wider, would this not make cornering more effective? Surely this could be as big a factor as 1cm of ride height? Given that Xdrive is basically RWD 90% of the time.

Kevin


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Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
agreed completely. staggered setup might make a difference on RWD model, but should make no difference on AWD model. Even with RWD, The difference is related to slip and the initial launch. Once you have rolling inertia, the tire width makes little to no difference assuming constant throttle input (in a straight line, that is).
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      07-03-2013, 01:00 PM   #43
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wow, bmw these days are fast...
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      07-03-2013, 01:13 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevRyd View Post
Is Camber and other factors no effected in some way by load? If not applicable I appologise.

kevin
Yes, they are in different ways for various suspension setups/geometries. But you still optimize camber for it's known operating range (load/travel), for your specific example. You *should* always engineer the setup to the loads the car is creating dynamically. At any rate, weight is not your friend when you want it to change direction.
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