[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

The old man's ride:

[SergeR]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

The old man's ride:

Wow! Absolutely gorgeous car, especially in that yellow!!

I love US muscle cars both old & new. Sadfully there are three reasons I will not buy one:
1. Cars like these often cost more than $120,000 here in the Netherlands.
2. Ride & build quality below par (European standards).
3. I'm a biased Bimmer fan

But I must say, if the ride quality would improve compared to what I've seen a couple of years back, I may one day add another make to the garage (not a switch). But then the price in the EU, just simply crazy! Not even my 435i is that expensive. Has everything to do with taxes, which are based on emissions.

[Moisted]

Originally Posted by SergeR

Wow! Absolutely gorgeous car, especially in that yellow!!

I love US muscle cars both old & new. Sadfully there are three reasons I will not buy one:
1. Cars like these often cost more than $120,000 here in the Netherlands.
2. Ride & build quality below par (European standards).
3. I'm a biased Bimmer fan

But I must say, if the ride quality would improve compared to what I've seen a couple of years back, I may one day add another make to the garage (not a switch). But then the price in the EU, just simply crazy! Not even my 435i is that expensive. Has everything to do with taxes, which are based on emissions.

They're finally starting to improve the quality, at least they upgraded the suspension from 50 years ago, but I doubt the effort will go as far as improvements to emission, fuel efficiency and handling. Why should they when people in the US will buy them without these qualities.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Moisted

They're finally starting to improve the quality, at least they upgraded the suspension from 50 years ago, but I doubt the effort will go as far as improvements to emission, fuel efficiency and handling. Why should they when people in the US will buy them without these qualities.

I guess you would criticize the Carrera as being a "50 year old design" too?

[Labeef]

Originally Posted by Moisted

They're finally starting to improve the quality, at least they upgraded the suspension from 50 years ago, but I doubt the effort will go as far as improvements to emission, fuel efficiency and handling. Why should they when people in the US will buy them without these qualities.

LOL, so your saying Europe builds the best cars?? I believe the Europeans help the US develop the lemon law.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by Moisted

They're finally starting to improve the quality, at least they upgraded the suspension from 50 years ago, but I doubt the effort will go as far as improvements to emission, fuel efficiency and handling. Why should they when people in the US will buy them without these qualities.

Fuel efficiency, perhaps so. Emission standards are actually more stringent in the U.S. And as has been stated, the handling on the new Mustang is superb.

[kent11202]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

The old man's ride:

Your Dad has good taste - tell him I LOVE his ride!

[Moisted]

Originally Posted by Labeef

LOL, so your saying Europe builds the best cars?? I believe the Europeans help the US develop the lemon law.

It's not just Europe, in other developed countries the general public's demand and government restrictions force manufcaturers to improve their quality. Only in North America can a manufacturer be successful selling cars (and pickup trucks) based on inferior technology year after year. Their business model is based on people's lack of knowledge.

BMW's philosophy is all about fanatic engineering execution, they spend so much time and money to improve every piece of the car, they've done this for decades, they are so far ahead. Where as Mustang's philosophy is the opposite side of the spectrum: put a shiny metal sheet over some old technology and sell it at a cheap price. A business model only works in North America.

Those reviewers that say 2015 Mustang has good handling compare it to last year's model. Of course it will be better, it finally has independent suspension for God's sakes. For the first time you can actually put a production Mustang on a track.

Comparing a Mustang to a BMW is like comparing a 60 year old prostitute to a super model. People choose based on their knowledge. "... Free will, it is a bitch."

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by Moisted

They're finally starting to improve the quality, at least they upgraded the suspension from 50 years ago, but I doubt the effort will go as far as improvements to emission, fuel efficiency and handling. Why should they when people in the US will buy them without these qualities.

Where do you get this from? CAFE standards will need to be 35 mpg by 2020. I get 22 mpg in my crusty old outdated GT with a lot of rush hour traffic. You think an M3 or M4 is any better? Emissions have to be stringent, California has very strict emissions.

And handling? Hate to have to post this yet again, doesn't say much for God's Chariot and its IRS but it sure says a lot about what Ford could get out of crusty "50 year old" technology, on a chassis that was in development around the turn of the millennium. So what's the excuse for why the newer chassis BMW with its holy IRS didn't waste the GT? Shouldn't it have?

Originally Posted by Moisted

Only in North America can a manufacturer be successful selling cars (and pickup trucks) based on inferior technology year after year. Their business model is based on people's lack of knowledge.

Which is why GM and Chrysler needed bailouts, and why Ford barely squeaked by? Sounds like they were finally held accountable for low quality in the court of public purchase. Also saying that the trucks are low quality is pretty laughable, that's like saying you wouldn't buy a German sport sedan.

Originally Posted by Moisted

BMW's philosophy is all about fanatic engineering execution, they spend so much time and money to improve every piece of the car, they've done this for decades, they are so far ahead. Where as Mustang's philosophy is the opposite side of the spectrum: put a shiny metal sheet over some old technology and sell it at a cheap price. A business model only works in North America.

I don't even know what to say to this fanboy statement. How is BMW "so far" ahead? The low-rent interior in $60k cars, the inability to design an HPFP to save their lives (just let Toyota do it for the new Z), the fact the cars are so unreliable everyone leases them because nobody wants to be caught with their pants down out of warranty when every tiny over engineered electrical bug costs $1500 to fix? But yes, Ford threw shiny sheet metal over a crappy solid axle and sure seems to have done a hell of a job. The new Mustang is worlds better.

Originally Posted by Moisted

Those reviewers that say 2015 Mustang has good handling compare it to last year's model. Of course it will be better, it finally has independent suspension for God's sakes. For the first time you can actually put a production Mustang on a track.

Randy Pobst in the video above seems to disagree with you, and I'd put more stock in his opinion. "You could race the (2011) Mustang if you wanted to, as-is."

Originally Posted by Moisted

Comparing a Mustang to a BMW is like comparing a 60 year old prostitute to a super model. People choose based on their knowledge. "... Free will, it is a bitch."

Completely asinine statement. Wake up, get a clue - it's one thing to have a preference or an opinion, and that's fine, but it's another thing to be completely blind, ignorant, and throwing garbage around.

The reality is Ford and the Americans have done a great job turning it around, it's not 1965 anymore and hasn't been for quite some time, but meanwhile the Germans have had zero incentive to get their shit together and build cars that are reliable beyond 3-4 years because everyone just goes right to the dealer and leases some lousy no line halogen turd off the lot over and over for inflated prices while the Germans just rely on their fantastic marketing machine and a reputation that they won't be able to ride much longer at the rate things are going. Has BMW built an "ultimate driving machine" in the last 20 years? Reputation can't carry them forever, people even on this forum seem to be noticing. I think the future for the American companies is rather bright.

That said, I love all cars and have had two BMWs, and cross-shopped a 2 series with my Mustang. Ultimately we are all enthusiasts, so we should not be blind fans of any particular make, and give credit where credit is due.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by puma1552

Where do you get this from? CAFE standards will need to be 35 mpg by 2020. I get 22 mpg in my crusty old outdated GT with a lot of rush hour traffic. You think an M3 or M4 is any better? Emissions have to be stringent, California has very strict emissions.

And handling? Hate to have to post this yet again, doesn't say much for God's Chariot and its IRS but it sure says a lot about what Ford could get out of crusty "50 year old" technology, on a chassis that was in development around the turn of the millennium. So what's the excuse for why the newer chassis BMW with its holy IRS didn't waste the GT? Shouldn't it have?

Which is why GM and Chrysler needed bailouts, and why Ford barely squeaked by? Sounds like they were finally held accountable for low quality in the court of public purchase. Also saying that the trucks are low quality is pretty laughable, that's like saying you wouldn't buy a German sport sedan.



I don't even know what to say to this fanboy statement. How is BMW "so far" ahead? The low-rent interior in $60k cars, the inability to design an HPFP to save their lives (just let Toyota do it for the new Z), the fact the cars are so unreliable everyone leases them because nobody wants to be caught with their pants down out of warranty when every tiny over engineered electrical bug costs $1500 to fix? But yes, Ford threw shiny sheet metal over a crappy solid axle and sure seems to have done a hell of a job. The new Mustang is worlds better.



Randy Pobst in the video above seems to disagree with you, and I'd put more stock in his opinion. "You could race the (2011) Mustang if you wanted to, as-is."



Completely asinine statement. Wake up, get a clue - it's one thing to have a preference or an opinion, and that's fine, but it's another thing to be completely blind, ignorant, and throwing garbage around.

The reality is Ford and the Americans have done a great job turning it around, it's not 1965 anymore and hasn't been for quite some time, but meanwhile the Germans have had zero incentive to get their shit together and build cars that are reliable beyond 3-4 years because everyone just goes right to the dealer and leases some lousy no line halogen turd off the lot over and over for inflated prices while the Germans just rely on their fantastic marketing machine and a reputation that they won't be able to ride much longer at the rate things are going. Has BMW built an "ultimate driving machine" in the last 20 years? Reputation can't carry them forever, people even on this forum seem to be noticing. I think the future for the American companies is rather bright.

That said, I love all cars and have had two BMWs, and cross-shopped a 2 series with my Mustang. Ultimately we are all enthusiasts, so we should not be blind fans of any particular make, and give credit where credit is due.

NO WAY ILL BUY A FORD PRODUCT ESPECIALLY A MUSTANG

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by Moisted

It's not just Europe, in other developed countries the general public's demand and government restrictions force manufcaturers to improve their quality. Only in North America can a manufacturer be successful selling cars (and pickup trucks) based on inferior technology year after year. Their business model is based on people's lack of knowledge.

BMW's philosophy is all about fanatic engineering execution, they spend so much time and money to improve every piece of the car, they've done this for decades, they are so far ahead. Where as Mustang's philosophy is the opposite side of the spectrum: put a shiny metal sheet over some old technology and sell it at a cheap price. A business model only works in North America.

Those reviewers that say 2015 Mustang has good handling compare it to last year's model. Of course it will be better, it finally has independent suspension for God's sakes. For the first time you can actually put a production Mustang on a track.

Comparing a Mustang to a BMW is like comparing a 60 year old prostitute to a super model. People choose based on their knowledge. "... Free will, it is a bitch."

Yeah, those super high quality Peugeots, MGs, Lancias, Fiats, Ladas, and all of the other non American brands really know how to push the quality and technology envelope. There's a reason most non American cars don't sell here, their quality is horrendous. Additionally those countries place such high tariffs on imports they can't sell their products in a competitive landscape dooming their indigenous brands to mediocrity. The Mustang past and present may not be a BMW but it is and has been the bang for the buck sports car for years.

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by puma1552

Where do you get this from? CAFE standards will need to be 35 mpg by 2020. I get 22 mpg in my crusty old outdated GT with a lot of rush hour traffic. You think an M3 or M4 is any better? Emissions have to be stringent, California has very strict emissions.

And handling? Hate to have to post this yet again, doesn't say much for God's Chariot and its IRS but it sure says a lot about what Ford could get out of crusty "50 year old" technology, on a chassis that was in development around the turn of the millennium. So what's the excuse for why the newer chassis BMW with its holy IRS didn't waste the GT? Shouldn't it have?

Which is why GM and Chrysler needed bailouts, and why Ford barely squeaked by? Sounds like they were finally held accountable for low quality in the court of public purchase. Also saying that the trucks are low quality is pretty laughable, that's like saying you wouldn't buy a German sport sedan.



I don't even know what to say to this fanboy statement. How is BMW "so far" ahead? The low-rent interior in $60k cars, the inability to design an HPFP to save their lives (just let Toyota do it for the new Z), the fact the cars are so unreliable everyone leases them because nobody wants to be caught with their pants down out of warranty when every tiny over engineered electrical bug costs $1500 to fix? But yes, Ford threw shiny sheet metal over a crappy solid axle and sure seems to have done a hell of a job. The new Mustang is worlds better.



Randy Pobst in the video above seems to disagree with you, and I'd put more stock in his opinion. "You could race the (2011) Mustang if you wanted to, as-is."



Completely asinine statement. Wake up, get a clue - it's one thing to have a preference or an opinion, and that's fine, but it's another thing to be completely blind, ignorant, and throwing garbage around.

The reality is Ford and the Americans have done a great job turning it around, it's not 1965 anymore and hasn't been for quite some time, but meanwhile the Germans have had zero incentive to get their shit together and build cars that are reliable beyond 3-4 years because everyone just goes right to the dealer and leases some lousy no line halogen turd off the lot over and over for inflated prices while the Germans just rely on their fantastic marketing machine and a reputation that they won't be able to ride much longer at the rate things are going. Has BMW built an "ultimate driving machine" in the last 20 years? Reputation can't carry them forever, people even on this forum seem to be noticing. I think the future for the American companies is rather bright.

That said, I love all cars and have had two BMWs, and cross-shopped a 2 series with my Mustang. Ultimately we are all enthusiasts, so we should not be blind fans of any particular make, and give credit where credit is due.

Right on!

[KneeDragr]

Sort of like porn star vs super model. Both pretty awesome in their own way but one does the job with a lot more class and beauty.

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by KneeDragr

Sort of like porn star vs super model. Both pretty awesome in their own way but one does the job with a lot more class and beauty.

[kent11202]

They are both good performing cars but, for me, I really don't think the BMW is worth $25K more just to get a tenth of a second faster lap time - jeez!

I'd love to see the same series of tests using the latest versions of both cars. I'm sure those that blindly drink the Bimmer Kool Aid would rather put their fingers in their ears and sing la, la, la than actually watch it.

I know - hate mail to follow.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Well I am down for a test drive ( at some point when released here in UK) of the V8 model.

Prefer that to the eco boost engine.

Test drive will likely be bit of North Wales and North Yorkshire.

Tight but fast roads, it needs to drive well real world (my 330d Xdrive can be amusing on tight stretches, as not had ACS springs fitted yet),

The main thing with this new mustang is hopefully decent suspension setup and not like driving on top of a fast blancmange.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by kent11202

They are both good performing cars but, for me, I really don't think the BMW is worth $25K more just to get a tenth of a second faster lap time - jeez!

I'd love to see the same series of tests using the latest versions of both cars.

I assume you're referring to the M4 vs 2015 GT. Check this out. I know it's only one track but still...

The Motown Mile, a short 1.1 mile bump littered surface from R&T

2015 M3: 55.53s
2015 GT: 56.18s
2015 M4: 57.47s...how this finishes almost two full seconds behind the M3, probably MT.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

The old man's ride:

Glen: Where did your dad get the stripes? Are they a factory option or were they applied by the dealer? They look great.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by PSA955

Yeah, those super high quality Peugeots, MGs, Lancias, Fiats, Ladas, and all of the other non American brands really know how to push the quality and technology envelope. There's a reason most non American cars don't sell here, their quality is horrendous. Additionally those countries place such high tariffs on imports they can't sell their products in a competitive landscape dooming their indigenous brands to mediocrity. The Mustang past and present may not be a BMW but it is and has been the bang for the buck sports car for years.

Until you go to a car wash and the drip from the famous mustang Troof gives you a free shower

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

Glen: Where did your dad get the stripes? Are they a factory option or were they applied by the dealer? They look great.

The stripes are a Ford dealer installed option.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

The stripes are a Ford dealer installed option.

Thanks for the info.

[jair_onsa]

I love BMW's but I have to accept the fact that american companies are steping up their game by looking at the new models, mustangs,challenger hellcat, corvettes, etc.
Im not gonna say which one is better than the other one, just glad that there's more variety out there to fit everyone's needs and quality and performance seem to be increasing.
I don't think I'd ever buy a new mustang but they do look good and offer pretty good performance given the price. Learn to respect and to each his own, the only winner is the person that drives the car he wants to drive and is happy with it.
Cheers