[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by Feanor

The thing is, in Europe at least, that would mean that the system hardly ever triggers for long enough to save fuel. Since the engine needs to be off for 4 seconds to be worthwhile, you'd need a total of 9 seconds stop time for the system to achieve any sort of saving and in stop-start traffic we're rarely stationary for that long before having to move on a few feet.

I think stop sign recognition is a genius idea - the system is basically already there, so I imagine that it would only need some programming changes.

They are testing this already- They also will have the ability with the hybrids to run the battery low and then regen on a descending hill. BMW has patented a lot of these basic geography and location based efficiency techniques.

They also have a way of recommending a speed so you do not catch a red light at all. I was briefed on all this in the fall and it is amazing- most will debut in BMWi but some of it will begin to trickle out with the F30 hybrid this fall.

[Ron Scott]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Let's get over this is a BMW thing, it isn't, here in the UK many vehicles have some version of an "idle-off" device. New models are having them fitted, as ASS is a key fuel saver for urban driving.

BTW, there are many serious studies on the fuel savings of idle-off devices, the same as there are for savings from use of electic power steering, electric coolant pumps etc., etc. All serious stuff from the key motoring research institutions around the world. The one I referenced is available for reading. It's over 80 pages and is a policy review of many other studies/data including from the EPA.

TECHNOLOGY AND POLICIES TO IMPROVE VEHICLE IN-USE FUEL ECONOMY – ISBN 92-821-0343-9 - © ECMT, 2005

Incidentally I've just googled "idling engines" and the very first page I brought up, (so no cherry picking) is the following, with a document attached.

So NYC have 'idling' waste, and the document/report covers in light weight detail, most of the issues involved.

http://www.edf.org/transportation/reports/idling

http://www.edf.org/sites/default/fil...where_2009.pdf

So much for Europe 'inflicting' unwanted devices on the US... seems at least NYC want them.

HighlandPete

So do the other brands' cars all shutter and stall with this ever-popular feature?

[SCBimmerKid]

Originally Posted by Ron Scott

So do the other brands' cars all shutter and stall with this ever-popular feature?

Every one I've driven has been very smooth on the upstart, and I think the stallings are isolated events, and shouldn't be attributed to the technology, but rather a couple cars that are having problems.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Feanor

The thing is, in Europe at least, that would mean that the system hardly ever triggers for long enough to save fuel. Since the engine needs to be off for 4 seconds to be worthwhile, you'd need a total of 9 seconds stop time for the system to achieve any sort of saving and in stop-start traffic we're rarely stationary for that long before having to move on a few feet.

I think stop sign recognition is a genius idea - the system is basically already there, so I imagine that it would only need some programming changes.

The quick to shut down part is my biggest complaint.
A longer shut off interval would be better.
Shutting the engine off for 2 seconds isn't going to do squat.
This system works for areas where there are extended stops and engines are sitting there burning fuel for 20 or 30 seconds or longer. THAT is where this system will show it's advantage. Shutting off after 2 seconds is overkill. At stop lights I come to complete stops, maybe I'm a rarity, but I do. I come to a complete stop and count 1, 2, 3. So, the engine shuts off at 2, then it has to come on quickly. I'm not saving anything, and am using up my patience.

A longer shut down interval probably would be the best idea.
I had posted about having a setting where the driver could pick 5, 7, or 10 seconds before shut down. But, that may be too confusing for a fickle public. Going with 5 seconds before shut down would make a big difference, but only if the start up works EVERY TIME, not just 80% or 90% of the time.
It ASS becomes to annoying to drivers they will simply choose to shut if off every time, and then the system will be completely useless, since even on stops that may last 20, 30 seconds or more, the engine will keep running. Any system that is designed to help save fuel, needs to work all the time and work the way people drive. If it doesn't then they won't use it, and the effort will be for naught.

[Casper]

So this thread was a great read. I don't have a dog in the fight as the F30 isn't under my consideration to replace my E90. I've driven the Fusion hybrid and the MKZ hybrid, and been in several Prius, all which shut the motor off at lights, etc. The difference being hybrids drive off instantly on battery power until to motor re-fires. I find the motor shutting off as unnatural even in hybrids. And I agree the owner should have the choice to keep the ASS disabled until he wants to use it. If you believe that it helps the environment or saves fuel and money, then enable the system and keep it enabled; if you don't like the system keep it disabled. Why not have the choice.

So sure BMW designed the starter to be more robust and to "last the lifetime of the vehicle." Yeah, they thought that about the HPFP too. So if the starter goes at say 75,000 miles, then how much money (I'm sure BMW will charge $1,000 for a new F30 starter) or environment protection have you saved? The starter will need to be replaced with a new or remanufactured one, all which have an impact on the environment from raw material extraction and transportation, manufacture of the new parts (more transportation), stocking the part in BMW's logistics system (which means more electricity to keep a server running to store the data in the data field so someone knows where to get it, etc.). Then not to mention all the additional battery changes; more starts mean more battery wear.

The system is there to get the car through European and EPA emissions and fuel mileage tests. It really doesn’t save anything in the long run...

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by Casper

So sure BMW designed the starter to be more robust and to "last the lifetime of the vehicle." Yeah, they thought that about the HPFP too. So if the starter goes at say 75,000 miles, then how much money (I'm sure BMW will charge $1,000 for a new F30 starter) or environment protection have you saved? The starter will need to be replaced with a new or remanufactured one, all which have an impact on the environment from raw material extraction and transportation, manufacture of the new parts (more transportation), stocking the part in BMW's logistics system (which means more electricity to keep a server running to store the data in the data field so someone knows where to get it, etc.). Then not to mention all the additional battery changes; more starts mean more battery wear.

The system is there to get the car through European and EPA emissions and fuel mileage tests. It really doesn’t save anything in the long run...

I have to respectfully disagree with your assumptions. The F30 engine is direct injected and will start quicker thus putting less wear and tear on the starter. The most strain on the starter is when the engine is cold and in colder weather and the ASS isn't supposed to operate under either of those scenarios. This starter is also designed for this and has likely been tested for x thousand starts. Even if the starter fails at 75k miles or 100k miles or whenever, you make an assumption that starters in non-ASS never fail. Therefore in a life of a car at say 125k or 150k miles, you would likely be replacing the starter in both ASS and non-ASS equipped cars once.

I really don't think that you have a valid argument. I think that it's back to having it on the car and people can decide whether they want to use it or not.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by Casper

So this thread was a great read. I don't have a dog in the fight as the F30 isn't under my consideration to replace my E90. I've driven the Fusion hybrid and the MKZ hybrid, and been in several Prius, all which shut the motor off at lights, etc. The difference being hybrids drive off instantly on battery power until to motor re-fires. I find the motor shutting off as unnatural even in hybrids. And I agree the owner should have the choice to keep the ASS disabled until he wants to use it. If you believe that it helps the environment or saves fuel and money, then enable the system and keep it enabled; if you don't like the system keep it disabled. Why not have the choice.

So sure BMW designed the starter to be more robust and to "last the lifetime of the vehicle." Yeah, they thought that about the HPFP too. So if the starter goes at say 75,000 miles, then how much money (I'm sure BMW will charge $1,000 for a new F30 starter) or environment protection have you saved? The starter will need to be replaced with a new or remanufactured one, all which have an impact on the environment from raw material extraction and transportation, manufacture of the new parts (more transportation), stocking the part in BMW's logistics system (which means more electricity to keep a server running to store the data in the data field so someone knows where to get it, etc.). Then not to mention all the additional battery changes; more starts mean more battery wear.

The system is there to get the car through European and EPA emissions and fuel mileage tests. It really doesn’t save anything in the long run...

BMW did not design the starters.
They are made by Bosch and Denso and are supplied to multiple manufacturers.

This type of starter is specifically designed for the 2nd generation of stop start systems that European, Japanese and US manufacturers are implementing.

To keep costs down if a repair is required the solenoid is a separate replacement part at 62 Euro.
The full starter is 300 Euro

The manufacturers have many years of experience gained from the 1st generation systems that are being implemented into the designs for these 2nd generation designs.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by Ron Scott

So do the other brands' cars all shutter and stall with this ever-popular feature?

I have driven many 1 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X1 and also the Porsche 911 And Porsche Panamera with Auto Stop/Start and not one has ever had a shutter or stalled.
If it stalls there is a problem and the dealer needs to look at the car.

[Feanor]

Originally Posted by Casper

The system is there to get the car through European and EPA emissions and fuel mileage tests. It really doesn’t save anything in the long run...

Are you sure you shouldn't qualify that final sentence by saying "I think"?

I say that because as far as I can tell, all you have to go on is your personal doubts. You seem to have no facts or figures to go on. This was the reason for my post earlier that set a bit of a flame war going.

The Internet is far too full of people stating opinion as fact. Everyone's life would be made much easier, and countless online myths that waste everyone's time could be avoided, if people were clearer about when they were speaking with knowledge and authority on a subject and when they're surmising.

I'm not saying your wrong, because I simply don't know. But if you have facts, then please either link us to them or state your source or personal qualification for knowing those facts. If you are surmising, please say so.

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

I have driven many 1 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X1 and also the Porsche 911 And Porsche Panamera with Auto Stop/Start and not one has ever had a shutter or stalled.
If it stalls there is a problem and the dealer needs to look at the car.

In fairness, you do hail from sunny South Africa, and the few reports we've had of the stall that have also explained the circumstances were, I believe, in coldish weather (ie cold, but above 3 C - or do you get cold weather in SA at this time of year? I've never been to your part of the world but I'm guessing it's only been Summer/Autumn in your hemisphere since the F30 has been out).
Still, it does seem to be ASS's implementation on the F30 that seems to be causing problems in some cases; as you say, ASS has been implemented without issues on many, many other cars.

[SomeRandomer123]

Originally Posted by Feanor

Roundabouts are great aren't they! . Trouble is, they rely on people knowing how to use them, and lots of road planners see how well they work in the UK and put them up elsewhere in the world and while they work in some places, in others they cause chaos - they've put some up in parts of the Middle East and there they're like Death Ralley!

lol.... I live in the only "artificial" city in the UK, ie it didn't exist before the '60s and was built and planned from scratch instead of growing organically like all our other towns & cities. It's known even here as the city of roundabouts!

Pretty much every one of the junctions between the yellow roads on this map is a roundabout, as are most of hte other junctions:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milton...rce=gplus-ogsb

They're pretty big, and you can easily go into one at 40mph when you can see the coast is clear:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=milton...rce=gplus-ogsb

The great thing is that when there's no traffic you can get from one side of town to the other really quickly - and even during rush hour the delays are nothing compared with what our other towns & cities suffer from.

OMG Milton Keynes drives me mad!! It's just roundabout after bloody roundabout!!!!!!

[SomeRandomer123]

Originally Posted by svache

Am I the only one digging the abbreviation?

Nope, it's making me chuckle!!

[SomeRandomer123]

Has anybody tried holding the ASS putton?
Wouldn't that be hilarious if that permanently disabled it!

[Raspartan]

The last paragraph of the Start-Stop System entry on Wikipedia mentions that batteries used in these kinds of systems wear out after only a year. I wonder if this has been solved in the BMW system? If the issue is in a Wikipedia article then I would think that it's a well known issue in the automotive engineering circles. Maybe E90Fleet might have more information on this?

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by Raspartan

The last paragraph of the Start-Stop System entry on Wikipedia mentions that batteries used in these kinds of systems wear out after only a year. I wonder if this has been solved in the BMW system? If the issue is in a Wikipedia article then I would think that it's a well known issue in the automotive engineering circles. Maybe E90Fleet might have more information on this?

That isn't true. That means that BMW would be replacing batteries under warranty like mad. I don't see that much wear and tear on the batteries because the engine should be warm and turn over very easily and fire up instantly.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Feanor

Are you sure you shouldn't qualify that final sentence by saying "I think"?

I say that because as far as I can tell, all you have to go on is your personal doubts. You seem to have no facts or figures to go on. This was the reason for my post earlier that set a bit of a flame war going.

The Internet is far too full of people stating opinion as fact. Everyone's life would be made much easier, and countless online myths that waste everyone's time could be avoided, if people were clearer about when they were speaking with knowledge and authority on a subject and when they're surmising.

I'm not saying your wrong, because I simply don't know. But if you have facts, then please either link us to them or state your source or personal qualification for knowing those facts. If you are surmising, please say so.

I'm not surmising any more than the posters stating global warming is a fact. They quote insignificant rises (or falls) in average temperatures in some parts of world and listen to Government-funded scientists, who can only suggest increases in average mean temperatures based on prediction models, and say it's based on fact. These Posters are quoting temperature rises and storm severity based on only a few hundred years of measured and recorded data, when the global weather history is over 4 Billion years old.

My personal qualifications is working in the manufacturing business for the last 25 years and understanding the concept of mean time between failures. My point, buy the way is was written, is easily discerned as opinion since the F30 has been in production for only 8 months and there is no data history to show the starters are failing at an abnormal rate. Time will tell. Just because other European cars have been using the technology doesn't mean BMW's application will be just as reliable. The N54 HPFP is a case in point. Many Manufacturers build high-pressure fuel systems (diesels come to mind) and have high reliability; BMW doesn't.

The point being the ASS may save fuel resources at the point of propulshion of an individual car, but if it needs to be replaced several times, the resources to manufacture and distribute it offset any savings, be they environmental impact or financial.

[Raspartan]

Originally Posted by micknugget

That isn't true. That means that BMW would be replacing batteries under warranty like mad. I don't see that much wear and tear on the batteries because the engine should be warm and turn over very easily and fire up instantly.

Hm, that's true. Or maybe the issue is mitigated by the decision logic that BMW uses to decide whether the the engine should be stopped at that particular time, i.e. battery charge state too low, too cold, etc.

[CE750Jockey]

All I know is E90Fleet better find me a way to permanently disable ASS or my opinion of him as this forum's resident genius will suffer.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Raspartan

The last paragraph of the Start-Stop System entry on Wikipedia mentions that batteries used in these kinds of systems wear out after only a year. I wonder if this has been solved in the BMW system? If the issue is in a Wikipedia article then I would think that it's a well known issue in the automotive engineering circles. Maybe E90Fleet might have more information on this?

Maybe I missed something in this thread but the Wikipedia article specifically mentions a certain type of battery wearing out in a year. The batteries used by most companies are not that kind of battery.

My wife drives a 2010 Honda Insight hybrid and in 2.5 years of ownership there is no sigh that the batteries are failing.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by Raspartan

The last paragraph of the Start-Stop System entry on Wikipedia mentions that batteries used in these kinds of systems wear out after only a year. I wonder if this has been solved in the BMW system? If the issue is in a Wikipedia article then I would think that it's a well known issue in the automotive engineering circles. Maybe E90Fleet might have more information on this?

I looked up the Wiki claim and it is based on a white paper from a battery company trying to sell their technology. I would hardly call that credible. That is why you shouldn't believe Wiki stuff unless it has credible evidence.

[Raspartan]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Maybe I missed something in this thread but the Wikipedia article specifically mentions a certain type of battery wearing out in a year. The batteries used by most companies are not that kind of battery.

My wife drives a 2010 Honda Insight hybrid and in 2.5 years of ownership there is no sigh that the batteries are failing.

Well that's a relief. I posted it because I ran across the article while researching start/stop systems and it seemed like a pretty strong statement to be making.

[Raspartan]

Originally Posted by micknugget

I looked up the Wiki claim and it is based on a white paper from a battery company trying to sell their technology. I would hardly call that credible. That is why you shouldn't believe Wiki stuff unless it has credible evidence.

Point well taken. I didn't look at the referring paper.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Maybe I missed something in this thread but the Wikipedia article specifically mentions a certain type of battery wearing out in a year. The batteries used by most companies are not that kind of battery.

My wife drives a 2010 Honda Insight hybrid and in 2.5 years of ownership there is no sigh that the batteries are failing.

Well there's difference with the Insight. The 13 HP integrated electric motor starts the engine, not a tradditional starter motor and the Insight's battery is a bit more powerful than a lead-acid auto battery.