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      10-06-2017, 10:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imserious View Post

A lot of people are talking about the evil NRA, the insanity of gun violence in an "advanced" society, bump stocks, etc.
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      10-06-2017, 10:52 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by imserious View Post
The second amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

A lot of people are talking about the evil NRA, the insanity of gun violence in an "advanced" society, bump stocks, etc.

I believe everyone is missing the point.

Why was the 2nd amendment written in the first place? Like the rebellious and violent founding of our nation, we the people have written it into the constitution the right to bear arms - not to protect ourselves from each other, not to be the police when there is no police around, but to protect ourselves from the government... against the backdrop of independence from the tyrannical British (US POV), we needed to make sure we would not fall victim to the very same treatment by our fledgling government. This is core to the American identity and, yes, it sets us apart from our European counterparts.

If the purpose of the 2nd amendment was to protect ourselves from the government who now possesses advanced weaponry, is an automatic rifle unwarranted? Surely, any competent militia would own modern military grade weapons, not bows and arrows or muskets.

Do we need grenade launchers, .50 caliber sniper rifles and silencers to defends our homes against a thief in the night? Overkill much? Do we need to open carry our AR-15s to Denny's so that other people will avoid confrontation? Questionable at best.

However, I think that's the wrong discussion. We are obsessed with the "right to bear arms" - you have peace love and harmony on one side and machismo on the other. No one is talking about the constitutional right to maintain "a well regulated militia". However, the right to bear arms only exists within the context of that purpose.

IMO: Everything should be done to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and those who are mentally unstable. However, once we start talking about the validity of guns, the purpose of guns in general, we need to be having a 2nd amendment militia discussion, not a right to bear arms discussion.
> If it is no longer valid - get rid of military grade weaponry period. Civilian weapons should be for sport and personal protection only (if that).
> If it is valid - build some definition around what a well regulated militia is and allow military grade weapons to exist under those conditions.

So is the 2nd amendment valid today or not?
What do you think a reasonable interpretation of the 2nd amendment is?
To ask this question is to not understand history (I know you understand )
Nearly the first things tyrants throughout history do is to disarm the populace often to "protect them" from themselves LOL

When the 2nd amendment goes.. or any amendment.. we are close to the end of this great experiment we call the United States of America
Our constitution is our greatest inheritance from our founding fathers
and our ungrateful unappreciative snowflake coming generations look to crumple and throw it away like some piece of refuse
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      10-07-2017, 01:20 AM   #25
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I love that libs are not only suddenly constitutional scholars after spending 8 years cheering on the Dear Leader wiping his ass with it, but are also suddenly Originalists when it comes to the 2A after 8 years of calling it a living document.

The 2A only applied to musket loaded rifles? Ok sure, if you want to play that game in it's original form it only applied to white males of a certain age, too.
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      10-07-2017, 05:55 AM   #26
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I'll just simply comment...

Where is the well regulated militia supposed to get its guns?
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      10-07-2017, 08:50 AM   #27
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Context for the 2nd Amendment : https://mises.org/library/american-m...reassessment-0


In any case, an armed population can keep the government in check. Afterall if the US military can't dominant Afghanistan what makes anyone think it could dominant the domestic population in the US.
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      10-07-2017, 08:59 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Context for the 2nd Amendment : https://mises.org/library/american-m...reassessment-0


In any case, an armed population can keep the government in check. Afterall if the US military can't dominant Afghanistan what makes anyone think it could dominant the domestic population in the US.
I'll go a bit further. If you were a country with the intent of physically invading the US, would you go into a county where the populace of 350M has 300M+ guns?
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      10-07-2017, 09:30 AM   #29
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When the 2nd amendment was written, military and militia were roughly in the same technological playing field. Today the gap between militia and military is huge compared to when the 2nd was written. Do we honestly think that a well regulated militia will aptly defend against the military (even if the military went all Nazi on us)? Cmon letís be serious. Even with bump sticks and fully automatic, we canít defend against a rogue govt. on that fact alone it should be re-evaluated.
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      10-07-2017, 12:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Context for the 2nd Amendment : https://mises.org/library/american-m...reassessment-0


In any case, an armed population can keep the government in check. Afterall if the US military can't dominant Afghanistan what makes anyone think it could dominant the domestic population in the US.
Surely you are joking!! The US military success in Afghanistan has nothing to do with ability. Military success in Afghanistan is purely political - just like Viet Nam was.
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      10-07-2017, 12:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Surely you are joking!! The US military success in Afghanistan has nothing to do with ability. Military success in Afghanistan is purely political - just like Viet Nam was.
To add to your comment, lets not forget Kuwait, where ex Pres.George H. Bush allowed Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf full reign into that country, and made Bush look very good in the process. Granted, Schwarzkopf took with him the lessons learned from Vietnam, and did not allow that skirmish to be fought by politicians.
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      10-07-2017, 01:18 PM   #32
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Ok so let?s bring this into the current day. The government has flooded the country with immigrants, who have a higher rate of violence than citizens. The government is also doing nothing to stop illegal immigration, and illegals have a much higher rate of crimes against citizens than the legal immigrants.

Consider the Boston Bombers, who committed crimes, and then ran loose in Cambridge, MA, where no one has a gun, due to strict local regulation. The city sent robo-calls to everyone to ?shelter inside? - I guess they could defend themselves against the armed criminals with a snow shovel?

IMO, this is exactly applicable to the 2nd amendment - it?s now more relevant than ever.
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      10-07-2017, 01:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Context for the 2nd Amendment : https://mises.org/library/american-m...reassessment-0


In any case, an armed population can keep the government in check. Afterall if the US military can't dominant Afghanistan what makes anyone think it could dominant the domestic population in the US.
Surely you are joking!! The US military success in Afghanistan has nothing to do with ability. Military success in Afghanistan is purely political - just like Viet Nam was.
I'm not, and if you knew anything about knew anything about Vietnam or Afghanistan the lack of success in Afghanistan is not about politics.
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      10-07-2017, 01:50 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
I'm not, and if you knew anything about knew anything about Vietnam or Afghanistan the lack of success in Afghanistan is not about politics.
I spent 21 years in the Air Force, including a one year combat tour in SEA, flying F4 combat missions in Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia. I know something. And the lack of success in Afghanistan is totally about politics - we only have about 11,000 total troops there and a limited ROE.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/04...t-taliban.html
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      10-07-2017, 02:17 PM   #35
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The second amandment guarantees the first and fourth amendments. The second amendment has no legal connection to hunting or sport shooting and is our only way to keep the government in check. It is most likely why no other nation has dared to attack the US with any kind of land assault. As for people bashing the NRA, show me any firearm attack in the US that was perpetrated by a NRA member. (There may be some/one but I have never heard of one). People lawfully carrying firearms are generally (statistcly) the most lawfull people in the general population.
In my opinion, the second amendment should allow a law abiding citizen the right to own any weapon that any standard infantry soldier is allowed to carry as it did when it was written. If you do the research, the second amendment was said to not have covered cannons on private ships and vessels but courts in those days determined that it did in fact cover military cannons on private ships and vessels.
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      10-07-2017, 02:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
I'm not, and if you knew anything about knew anything about Vietnam or Afghanistan the lack of success in Afghanistan is not about politics.
I spent 21 years in the Air Force, including a one year combat tour in SEA, flying F4 combat missions in Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia. I know something. And the lack of success in Afghanistan is totally about politics - we only have about 11,000 total troops there and a limited ROE.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/04...t-taliban.html
But do you know the history?

My point is that we've spent billions of not trillions fighting in that country because we ignored history. The cost in both $$ and personnel for the US military to try to put down an armed populace of 40-50 million US citizens who remember our history would be astronomical.
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      10-07-2017, 02:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
But do you know the history?

My point is that we've spent billions of not trillions fighting in that country because we ignored history. The cost in both $$ and personnel for the US military to try to put down an armed populace of 40-50 million US citizens who remember our history would be astronomical.
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      10-07-2017, 02:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
But do you know the history?

My point is that we've spent billions of not trillions fighting in that country because we ignored history. The cost in both $$ and personnel for the US military to try to put down an armed populace of 40-50 million US citizens who remember our history would be astronomical.
Gun owners in the US. We're talking 2A no?
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      10-07-2017, 02:36 PM   #39
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Gun owners in the US. We're talking 2A no?
What does that have to do with military inability in Afghanistan due to politics?
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      10-07-2017, 02:42 PM   #40
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      10-07-2017, 03:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Gun owners in the US. We're talking 2A no?
What does that have to do with military inability in Afghanistan due to politics?
It's about cost. The ROI for Afghanistan is negative with their poorly equiped enemy. For the US it would be even worse.
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      10-07-2017, 03:28 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
... immigrants, who have a higher rate of violence than citizens ... and illegals have a much higher rate of crimes against citizens than the legal immigrants.
I don't think this is true. Do you have sources?

And, are you suggesting that we citizens need guns at our sides to protect us from immigrants? I'm not sure where you live, but around my city we don't have bands of Muslims or Mexicans roaming the neighborhoods looking to hurt people.
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      10-07-2017, 03:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Context for the 2nd Amendment : https://mises.org/library/american-m...reassessment-0

In any case, an armed population can keep the government in check. Afterall if the US military can't dominant Afghanistan what makes anyone think it could dominant the domestic population in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Surely you are joking!! The US military success in Afghanistan has nothing to do with ability. Military success in Afghanistan is purely political - just like Viet Nam was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
It's about cost. The ROI for Afghanistan is negative with their poorly equiped enemy. For the US it would be even worse.
You just proved my point. ROI has nothing to do with military capability - it is a political assessment. ROI is a financial/political assessment. Military uses Risk Assessment and Acceptable Risk - not ROI.
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      10-07-2017, 03:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
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I don't think this is true. Do you have sources?

And, are you suggesting that we citizens need guns at our sides to protect us from immigrants? I'm not sure where you live, but around my city we don't have bands of Muslims or Mexicans roaming the neighborhoods looking to hurt people.
Take a walk downtown Mannheim, Germany after 7pm..
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