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      02-17-2017, 02:21 PM   #1
Araemo
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HPDE and stock brake pads? (335i/340i)

I did a search, and there doesn't seem to be much info on here about stock pads vs aftermarket pads.

I found some people who say the stock pads are actually ok on the track, as long as you aren't going all-out, but I would still feel better with slightly upgraded pads, it's a small price for a bit more safety/margin for error.

The question is, anyone who has driven the stock M Sport brakes w/ oem pads and with aftermarket, how do they compare?

OEM Vs. EBC Redstuff
OEM Vs. EBC Yellowstuff
Redstuff/yellowstuff vs Pagid RS29s
OEM Vs. Carbotech 1521s

Specifically with regards to fade resistance and brake feel/modulation.

My car has the 'track handling package' m sport brakes. So, same calipers as the M Performance brake kit, but the blank rotors, not slotted/dimpled.

Pagid seems to recommend using slotted/dimpled rotors with their pads, so I don't think those are a good option unless I want to spend the money for slotted rotors right now, which I didn't budget for this spring, so I'd rather not.

I've used Carbotech bobcats (discontinued) and 1521s on previous cars (including at the track) and never experienced fade, but the 1521s were higher-dust/noise than I'd like to use, and I'm ideally looking for a 'street' pad that will still be an upgrade over OEM on the track. Other than dust/noise, the 1521s were awesome. I also used hawk HPSs two cars ago, but I didn't find good info about Hawk's that fit this car.

I'm only likely to do one HPDE weekend this year, but when I get out into the countryside, I can get the brakes hot enough to feel the difference between 'street' pads and ones that work better at temperature, so if the pads aren't too noisy/dusty, I'd like to keep them on year-round. Since I've only had the car since November, I haven't had the opportunity to get a real feel for the stock pads yet.

As for the EBC pads.. I haven't used any EBC pads myself, but I've seen them recommended elsewhere. It was a little tricky to confirm the part #s for my car, but I'm pretty sure these are the brake pad shapes (FMSI #) for M sport brakes:

D1609 front
D1656 rear

Can anyone confirm these?

EBC has both Redstuff and Yellowstuff available in those shapes. Carbotech can generally provide any shape in any compound they sell.
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      02-17-2017, 04:38 PM   #2
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Never heard anything good about EBC. I'd avoid.

Hawk has pads in these shapes, if you are only doing a single track day but want something more performance oriented I'd recommend the Hawk 5.0 as its a low dust pad that can handle track days without fading, its the replacement of the HP. The Street Race is the new HPS but beware, very dusty and noisy.

Front – HB765x.664 (D1609)
Available compounds – HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-30 (W), DTC-70 (U)

Rear – HB766x.624 (D1656)
Available compounds – HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-70 (U)


Im leaning towards running the 5.0's on the street and DTC 60's for track days this summer.
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      02-17-2017, 09:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo View Post
I did a search, and there doesn't seem to be much info on here about stock pads vs aftermarket pads.

I found some people who say the stock pads are actually ok on the track, as long as you aren't going all-out, but I would still feel better with slightly upgraded pads, it's a small price for a bit more safety/margin for error.

The question is, anyone who has driven the stock M Sport brakes w/ oem pads and with aftermarket, how do they compare?

OEM Vs. EBC Redstuff
OEM Vs. EBC Yellowstuff
Redstuff/yellowstuff vs Pagid RS29s
OEM Vs. Carbotech 1521s

Specifically with regards to fade resistance and brake feel/modulation.

My car has the 'track handling package' m sport brakes. So, same calipers as the M Performance brake kit, but the blank rotors, not slotted/dimpled.

Pagid seems to recommend using slotted/dimpled rotors with their pads, so I don't think those are a good option unless I want to spend the money for slotted rotors right now, which I didn't budget for this spring, so I'd rather not.

I've used Carbotech bobcats (discontinued) and 1521s on previous cars (including at the track) and never experienced fade, but the 1521s were higher-dust/noise than I'd like to use, and I'm ideally looking for a 'street' pad that will still be an upgrade over OEM on the track. Other than dust/noise, the 1521s were awesome. I also used hawk HPSs two cars ago, but I didn't find good info about Hawk's that fit this car.

I'm only likely to do one HPDE weekend this year, but when I get out into the countryside, I can get the brakes hot enough to feel the difference between 'street' pads and ones that work better at temperature, so if the pads aren't too noisy/dusty, I'd like to keep them on year-round. Since I've only had the car since November, I haven't had the opportunity to get a real feel for the stock pads yet.

As for the EBC pads.. I haven't used any EBC pads myself, but I've seen them recommended elsewhere. It was a little tricky to confirm the part #s for my car, but I'm pretty sure these are the brake pad shapes (FMSI #) for M sport brakes:

D1609 front
D1656 rear

Can anyone confirm these?

EBC has both Redstuff and Yellowstuff available in those shapes. Carbotech can generally provide any shape in any compound they sell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MickAv8r View Post
Never heard anything good about EBC. I'd avoid.

Hawk has pads in these shapes, if you are only doing a single track day but want something more performance oriented I'd recommend the Hawk 5.0 as its a low dust pad that can handle track days without fading, its the replacement of the HP. The Street Race is the new HPS but beware, very dusty and noisy.

Front HB765x.664 (D1609)
Available compounds HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-30 (W), DTC-70 (U)

Rear HB766x.624 (D1656)
Available compounds HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-70 (U)


Im leaning towards running the 5.0's on the street and DTC 60's for track days this summer.
If you have the M Sport Brakes like my car, I'd recommend using any of the three pads:

1. Stock M Sport pads
2. Stock M3/M4 pads
3. Pagid RSL1 or RSL29 pads. One of these is actually available as an BMW OEM pad.

For a beginner to beginner intermediate HPDE student, the stock M3/M4 pads should be sufficient.
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      02-18-2017, 10:19 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickAv8r View Post
Never heard anything good about EBC. I'd avoid.

Hawk has pads in these shapes, if you are only doing a single track day but want something more performance oriented I'd recommend the Hawk 5.0 as its a low dust pad that can handle track days without fading, its the replacement of the HP. The Street Race is the new HPS but beware, very dusty and noisy.

Front – HB765x.664 (D1609)
Available compounds – HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-30 (W), DTC-70 (U)

Rear – HB766x.624 (D1656)
Available compounds – HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-70 (U)


Im leaning towards running the 5.0's on the street and DTC 60's for track days this summer.
Thank you for the info, more options is a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
If you have the M Sport Brakes like my car, I'd recommend using any of the three pads:

1. Stock M Sport pads
2. Stock M3/M4 pads
3. Pagid RSL1 or RSL29 pads. One of these is actually available as an BMW OEM pad.

For a beginner to beginner intermediate HPDE student, the stock M3/M4 pads should be sufficient.
When I realized the M3/M4 used the same pad shape, I started reading the M3/M4 forum, and the consensus there seems to be that the stock M3/M4 pads aren't cut out for the track (and I'd assume the M Sport pads are a step down too?). It's nice to know that in a pinch the stock pads should be 'ok', but I'd rather be safe than sorry when it comes to brakes, so I probably will still get pads and higher temp fluid before the event.

And as I noted above, Pagid recommends not using their pads without slotted/drilled/dimpled rotors, which changes the budget for the brake upgrade considerably, so I don't think I'm going to go that route.
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      02-18-2017, 11:56 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo View Post
Thank you for the info, more options is a good thing.



When I realized the M3/M4 used the same pad shape, I started reading the M3/M4 forum, and the consensus there seems to be that the stock M3/M4 pads aren't cut out for the track (and I'd assume the M Sport pads are a step down too?). It's nice to know that in a pinch the stock pads should be 'ok', but I'd rather be safe than sorry when it comes to brakes, so I probably will still get pads and higher temp fluid before the event.

And as I noted above, Pagid recommends not using their pads without slotted/drilled/dimpled rotors, which changes the budget for the brake upgrade considerably, so I don't think I'm going to go that route.
Where?

http://www.pagidracing.com/informati...formation.html

Quote:
PAGID Racing brake pads can be used on solid, grooved or cross-drilled discs. If possible, pads should be bedded on discs which were used previously with the same friction material. However, disc friction faces should be free of grooves. If bedding new pads on new discs, focus on disc bedding first. For disc bedding please refer to the disc manufacturers own instructions.

Disc life is improved by allowing the disc to cool to ambient temperature post-bedding.
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      02-18-2017, 01:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
Fair enough, I was trusting turner:
https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...f87-m2/?pdk=AQ
Quote:
Since Pagid pads tend to "out-gas" we recommend using these pads with a new gas-slotted or cross-drilled rotor for the best performance. Pagid brakepads are not compatible with previously used rotors, especially if used with a carbon or Kevlar based race pad.
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      02-26-2017, 07:20 AM   #7
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Last year I did 1 Auto cross and 3 track days with my 2016 328i with M sport brakes
Never had any brake fade issues

Next time I am going to swap out the brake fluid but that is it
I have confidence in the M sport brake pads
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      02-26-2017, 04:44 PM   #8
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Thanks XKxRome0ox and good to know the M brakes work on track without fading. Wonder what the boiling point is for the BMW stock brake fluid. Generally, when at the track my go-to was Motul. Tried others yet Motul worked great and felt the best for my braking 'style'.
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      03-02-2017, 11:59 PM   #9
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Porterfield R4-S definitely have more heat resistance than OEM M Sport for HDPE; and at least half the dust (probably even less). The downside is a more-expensive pad; and a very slight compromise in cold pad performance. This is what I run as my all-around pads.
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      03-04-2017, 10:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo
Quote:
Originally Posted by MickAv8r View Post
Never heard anything good about EBC. I'd avoid.

Hawk has pads in these shapes, if you are only doing a single track day but want something more performance oriented I'd recommend the Hawk 5.0 as its a low dust pad that can handle track days without fading, its the replacement of the HP. The Street Race is the new HPS but beware, very dusty and noisy.

Front – HB765x.664 (D1609)
Available compounds – HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-30 (W), DTC-70 (U)

Rear – HB766x.624 (D1656)
Available compounds – HPS 5.0 (B), DTC-60 (G), Street/Race (R), DTC-70 (U)


Im leaning towards running the 5.0's on the street and DTC 60's for track days this summer.
Thank you for the info, more options is a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
If you have the M Sport Brakes like my car, I'd recommend using any of the three pads:

1. Stock M Sport pads
2. Stock M3/M4 pads
3. Pagid RSL1 or RSL29 pads. One of these is actually available as an BMW OEM pad.

For a beginner to beginner intermediate HPDE student, the stock M3/M4 pads should be sufficient.
When I realized the M3/M4 used the same pad shape, I started reading the M3/M4 forum, and the consensus there seems to be that the stock M3/M4 pads aren't cut out for the track (and I'd assume the M Sport pads are a step down too?). It's nice to know that in a pinch the stock pads should be 'ok', but I'd rather be safe than sorry when it comes to brakes, so I probably will still get pads and higher temp fluid before the event.

And as I noted above, Pagid recommends not using their pads without slotted/drilled/dimpled rotors, which changes the budget sfor the brake upgrade considerably, so I don't think I'm going to go that route.
Apples to oranges comparison. #1 The M's are braking from a higher speed than you. #2 The non-CCB M's have drilled rotors which is arguably worse than blanks or slotted. #3 They probably have better tires (I.e. Track tires) and these tire are a significant contributior to braking ability. Better tires makes stock brakes the weaker link.

Any F3x cars with the 4-piston caliper up front can handle a 1x/yr HPDE event. It's not like you're going full out, non-stop for hours on end.
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      03-18-2017, 09:56 PM   #11
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I have a 328i with the M-Sport and Track Handling packages. I was able to get over 20 track sessions (25 minutes each) out of the factory pads before having to change pads. Mix of 1.7 mile and 3.1 mile track configs at Motorsport Ranch in Cresson TX so a good mix of braking zones. The factory pads held up extremely well and had minimal fade. I did change the brake fluid to Motul RBF600 prior to tracking the car.
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      04-24-2017, 12:23 PM   #12
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What about a 340i with the msport package but no track package? Similar suggestions as above or different pads?

I didn't order the track package because I didn't think I'd need it, but now I slightly regret it as my first HPDEs are coming up.
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      04-24-2017, 06:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptcrunch View Post
What about a 340i with the msport package but no track package? Similar suggestions as above or different pads?

I didn't order the track package because I didn't think I'd need it, but now I slightly regret it as my first HPDEs are coming up.
I see you're in cinci - you doing the Memorial Day weekend event at Mid-Ohio? That was what I made this thread for, but life has gotten in the way and I don't think I'll make it.
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      04-24-2017, 09:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo View Post
I see you're in cinci - you doing the Memorial Day weekend event at Mid-Ohio? That was what I made this thread for, but life has gotten in the way and I don't think I'll make it.
I'm definitely thinking about it. I camp every memorial day weekend and am usually back on Sundays. So I can make Monday and Tuesday. Admittedly I'll be pretty unprepared because I will not be running a square setup (i'm working on that), and will probably be using OEM brake fluid, but might have the dealership swap it out for Motul 600. Eventually I'll learn how to flush my own fluid.

If not mid-ohio in May, then I'd like to be there in July (hopefully both!). After my two-day car control course at the BMW Performance Center last year, I want to get on the track a few times this year if possible. I want to do one track day and then look at a square setup, probably 18"x8.5 apex with some sort of tire. My concern right now is braking. I didn't order the track package because i had to cut something from my build and that was it. Now i'm wondering how much I need those track brakes or if my msport brakes will be ok. And if not, how much it will be to retrofit the track brakes.

All good problems to have
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      04-25-2017, 10:58 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by cptcrunch View Post
I'm definitely thinking about it. I camp every memorial day weekend and am usually back on Sundays. So I can make Monday and Tuesday. Admittedly I'll be pretty unprepared because I will not be running a square setup (i'm working on that), and will probably be using OEM brake fluid, but might have the dealership swap it out for Motul 600. Eventually I'll learn how to flush my own fluid.

If not mid-ohio in May, then I'd like to be there in July (hopefully both!). After my two-day car control course at the BMW Performance Center last year, I want to get on the track a few times this year if possible. I want to do one track day and then look at a square setup, probably 18"x8.5 apex with some sort of tire. My concern right now is braking. I didn't order the track package because i had to cut something from my build and that was it. Now i'm wondering how much I need those track brakes or if my msport brakes will be ok. And if not, how much it will be to retrofit the track brakes.

All good problems to have
Yeah.. I knew I wanted to be on track, and if I had gotten a car that didn't offer solid/brembo calipers, I was going to be big brake kitting it, so the track handling package was a no-brainer for me. But really.. if you are mindful of your brakes, upgraded pads/fluid will be noticeable on their own. They don't have as much heat capacity as bigger brakes, but they still work better than stock, and better pads/fluid can work at higher temps, so you get an extra lap or two before you need to let it all cool down.

I did a 3-day event at mid-ohio a couple years ago in a tuned VW GLI. Only 3250 pounds, so noticeably lighter than the F30, and therefor easier on the brakes.. but in my case, with carbotech 1521 pads all around and the motul DOT5.1 fluid, brakes were not the weak point, my all-season tires were. I was dead set on doing the memorial day event, but only wanted to budget for the brake pads/fluid this year, and go with the staggered setup.

Really, the staggered setup is probably fine for a beginner, it will encourage understeer instead of oversteer, which is safer when you're learning and fuck up more often. Mid ohio is a good course though. I did already know my car well, but the only place on that track that scared me at all was the end of the back straight before I got to trust my brakes. If you don't go faster there than you've ever been in your car before, you're doing some very illegal stuff on the road... and then there's a downhill 90-degree right at the end of it. lol
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      04-28-2017, 10:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo View Post
Yeah.. I knew I wanted to be on track, and if I had gotten a car that didn't offer solid/brembo calipers, I was going to be big brake kitting it, so the track handling package was a no-brainer for me. But really.. if you are mindful of your brakes, upgraded pads/fluid will be noticeable on their own. They don't have as much heat capacity as bigger brakes, but they still work better than stock, and better pads/fluid can work at higher temps, so you get an extra lap or two before you need to let it all cool down.

I did a 3-day event at mid-ohio a couple years ago in a tuned VW GLI. Only 3250 pounds, so noticeably lighter than the F30, and therefor easier on the brakes.. but in my case, with carbotech 1521 pads all around and the motul DOT5.1 fluid, brakes were not the weak point, my all-season tires were. I was dead set on doing the memorial day event, but only wanted to budget for the brake pads/fluid this year, and go with the staggered setup.

Really, the staggered setup is probably fine for a beginner, it will encourage understeer instead of oversteer, which is safer when you're learning and fuck up more often. Mid ohio is a good course though. I did already know my car well, but the only place on that track that scared me at all was the end of the back straight before I got to trust my brakes. If you don't go faster there than you've ever been in your car before, you're doing some very illegal stuff on the road... and then there's a downhill 90-degree right at the end of it. lol
I joined Chin only to find out that the novice class is full for memorial day weekend I'm on the waiting list but I think its unlikely a slot will open up. I didn't think they would fill up so quickly, but it makes sense since there are limited number of instructors which are required for novices.

I wish we had more tracks in the area. Any suggestions?
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      04-28-2017, 01:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by cptcrunch View Post
I joined Chin only to find out that the novice class is full for memorial day weekend I'm on the waiting list but I think its unlikely a slot will open up. I didn't think they would fill up so quickly, but it makes sense since there are limited number of instructors which are required for novices.

I wish we had more tracks in the area. Any suggestions?
Mid-Ohio's such a great track, I'd say just look at the other options, BMWCCA's events, any PCA events, etc. They rarely require you to have the 'right' brand of car to attend.

Being from northeast ohio, the only other track I know of is east of Cleveland, so I doubt you'd be interested in that drive (and from what I hear, it's kind've a shitty surface, and definitely a much smaller track).
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      05-15-2017, 07:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo View Post
Mid-Ohio's such a great track, I'd say just look at the other options, BMWCCA's events, any PCA events, etc. They rarely require you to have the 'right' brand of car to attend.

Being from northeast ohio, the only other track I know of is east of Cleveland, so I doubt you'd be interested in that drive (and from what I hear, it's kind've a shitty surface, and definitely a much smaller track).
You could try PittRace? Recently resurfaced if I understand correctly, and has lots of open days.
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      05-15-2017, 07:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by JAhmed View Post
You could try PittRace? Recently resurfaced if I understand correctly, and has lots of open days.
Wow, never knew about that. That's about the same distance from me as Mid-Ohio. Another good option for track days if you're in NE Ohio then. Thanks.
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      05-21-2017, 08:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo View Post
Mid-Ohio's such a great track, I'd say just look at the other options, BMWCCA's events, any PCA events, etc. They rarely require you to have the 'right' brand of car to attend.

Being from northeast ohio, the only other track I know of is east of Cleveland, so I doubt you'd be interested in that drive (and from what I hear, it's kind've a shitty surface, and definitely a much smaller track).
Good news everyone! A slot opened up and I will be at the track this Monday and Tuesday at mid-ohio. Are you still going?

Having never done this before, any pointers on what I should bring? I'm swapping the BMW OEM brake fluid for Motul RBF600 but running stock pads for now. I need to get a few more track days in before I decide if I want to spend money on the BBK.

On the list is:
Racing jack
Extra oil
Extra brake fluid
Race helmet
Chips, soft drinks, water bottles, lunch meat, bread, etc for food while there
Stock S001 Tires
Torque wrench and a few choice tools

Not bringing:
Extra tires
Extra brake pads

And then other comfort items. As i'm in the novice class, I'm not expecting to go through a set of brake pads or tires. Anything else a novice should bring?
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      05-22-2017, 06:01 AM   #21
Araemo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptcrunch View Post
Good news everyone! A slot opened up and I will be at the track this Monday and Tuesday at mid-ohio. Are you still going?

Having never done this before, any pointers on what I should bring? I'm swapping the BMW OEM brake fluid for Motul RBF600 but running stock pads for now. I need to get a few more track days in before I decide if I want to spend money on the BBK.

On the list is:
Racing jack
Extra oil
Extra brake fluid
Race helmet
Chips, soft drinks, water bottles, lunch meat, bread, etc for food while there
Stock S001 Tires
Torque wrench and a few choice tools

Not bringing:
Extra tires
Extra brake pads

And then other comfort items. As i'm in the novice class, I'm not expecting to go through a set of brake pads or tires. Anything else a novice should bring?
It sounds like you're going to be better prepared than I was for my first one. No, I'm not going.. I was going to go to the Saturday-Sunday BMWCCA event, not the event you're going to, but something came up and I canceled.. but then that got canceled Friday. That doesn't leave enough time for me to get my brake pads/fluid changed and the car safety inspected since I'm out of town all this week.
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      06-12-2017, 12:55 PM   #22
zinner
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I have done a few days at VIR and NCCAR with the stock pads and fluid. (msport SH2NA) brakes no fade or other issues. I am flushing with stock fluid to comply with event rules.
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