[NightWriter]

Yes, everyone's favorite subject. Interesting--and disappointing--interview with a BMW chassis engineer:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/steer-m...steering-feel/

[bueller]

Henry Ford once said if he asked his customers what they wanted they would say a faster horse. Not exactly the same thing, I don't understand why they don't put hydraulic racks in M cars.

When I did euro delivery on my 1M, I was at the BMW Welt getting ready to do a factory tour, the guy leading our group introduced himself and said that he used to work on motor certification. Some dude from Italy started asking all kinds of technical questions about engines in the Q&A. One of his questions was why the S65 motor was not direct injection, the guy said he didn't know. As we were walking through the Welt as a group, the guy leading the group saw a guy that had more knowledge of that motor and posed the question (in German) on behalf of the Italian guy. As German people do, he did not really mask the fact that he found the question dumb, and answered that it was a performance motor and was not designed for fuel economy.

So I understand the advantages of EPS, but I don't get a couple of things. Why is it that Porsche can do it so well, but BMW seems to be able to get it almost right, but it's still not there? If it is a weak spot, why not use a hydraulic rack on M cars until they are there? If it is infinitely adjustable, why is there not a Lexus mode for people who want that? Hell, overboost it and do 77 Lincoln mode, but also make Porsche mode for people that want that.

B.

[goj]

Ehh, at this point none of the info is new.

I think C&D is especially melodramatic about the steering by saying no cars offer good feel. The m cars have good feel, even if it's not to the level of the e9x. Plain and simple they're trying to overdo the criticism of the steering alone to influence BMW to change. I see lots of negative spin in C&D's journalism nowadays about most cars/brands.

A quick read in their archives online shows how much the writing has changed

[anotheran]

Yup. Read something earlier about BMW engineer saying something to the same tune.

The main reason we have active steering and VSS:

So the strongest demand we heard was, ‘Please reduce the steering effort.’

If things continue the current 5 series way then I'll just look elsewhere for my next car

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by goj

Ehh, at this point none of the info is new.

I think C&D is especially melodramatic about the steering by saying no cars offer good feel. The m cars have good feel, even if it's not to the level of the e9x. Plain and simple they're trying to overdo the criticism of the steering alone to influence BMW to change. I see lots of negative spin in C&D's journalism nowadays about most cars/brands.

A quick read in their archives online shows how much the writing has changed

True. My 2015 drives fine. A 2012 loaner I had was garbage. They are trying to make news out of nothing.

[goj]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

True. My 2015 drives fine. A 2012 loaner I had was garbage. They are trying to make news out of nothing.

Yup, they now go for writing that instigates comments and traffic on their site.

[metallicpea]

I see it the other way. This is confirmation direct from BMW that they seek to only satisfy the mainstream customer and the enthusiast is getting pushed out of the brand.

Regardless of your view on what C&D writes, BMW's priorities scream loud and clear in these words. I really don't like it. I hope a bigger stink is made and BMW gains awareness and appreciation before it's too late.

With EPS and switchable modes, I would believe they can address this issue if they make the effort. I could not care less about how easy the car is to park - that is not remotely an important feature of a drivers car. I had a pre LCI E46 - right before the first attempt to reduce steering effort and I loved the steering on that car. It was heavier in parking lots than anything I had owned before or after - except my E46 M3, which I love, but it's not like you have to wrestle it or anything. How easy does it need to be? I just don't understand that complaint, and that seems to be their main design goal.

Also, they are clearly trying to isolate the driver from the road. Thats even worse. If the road is rough or grooved, I do need to feel it. Tells me more about the traction and stability of the surface I am driving on. But why do I bother griping, we won't be in control of our driving in the not so distant future anyway. It's a lost cause.

On a lighter note, when did I become such a grumpy old man?

[440xiGCMsport]

Originally Posted by goj

Yup, they now go for writing that instigates comments and traffic on their site.

Not true. you all complain about Audi steering feeling numb but I can tell you my 2010 S4 with hydraulic steering had more feedback than the current 3 and 4 series. that was the first thing I noticed from my audi. I think C&D got it 100% correct in that BMW should make their cars steering feel more like the Porsche than a lexus.
It isn't only C&D that feel this way either. Do a search in these forums and you will find a tonne of threads with the same complaint.

[the_phew]

It was news to a BMW chassis engineer that Porsche has figured out how to extract feedback from EPS? And that some customers actually care about it?

Whelp, so long BMW. Good luck in your quest to be the 'The Less Reliable Lexus'.

[hollandog]

The mainstream can stay in comfort mode with no feedback. The sport mode should be like a proper BMW.

[TypeOne]

I just sold my Honda S2000 and I must say, getting out of that thing and into my F30 is a completely different world. If there is one thing I'm not super happy about with the BMW is the steering feel. It wish that it was a bit more direct and that the lock-to-lock ratio was a bit more aggressive.

The S2000 is a like a razor blade and the F30 is more like a butter knife.

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by metallicpea

I see it the other way. This is confirmation direct from BMW that they seek to only satisfy the mainstream customer and the enthusiast is getting pushed out of the brand.

Regardless of your view on what C&D writes, BMW's priorities scream loud and clear in these words. I really don't like it. I hope a bigger stink is made and BMW gains awareness and appreciation before it's too late.

With EPS and switchable modes, I would believe they can address this issue if they make the effort. I could not care less about how easy the car is to park - that is not remotely an important feature of a drivers car. I had a pre LCI E46 - right before the first attempt to reduce steering effort and I loved the steering on that car. It was heavier in parking lots than anything I had owned before or after - except my E46 M3, which I love, but it's not like you have to wrestle it or anything. How easy does it need to be? I just don't understand that complaint, and that seems to be their main design goal.

Also, they are clearly trying to isolate the driver from the road. Thats even worse. If the road is rough or grooved, I do need to feel it. Tells me more about the traction and stability of the surface I am driving on. But why do I bother griping, we won't be in control of our driving in the not so distant future anyway. It's a lost cause.

On a lighter note, when did I become such a grumpy old man?

Correct, this is why (after 20+ years) I left BMW. I then drove new EPS 911s and the older hydraulic 911s, I bought an '09 (Carrera S, 23K miles) with the hydraulic box. At the sake of sounding obnoxious, it wasn't about the money, it was about me getting exactly what I wanted, no more compromises. For me, the Porsche EPS is great, the hydraulic box is better.

I like what I have been reading about the 340 and especially the M2. After spending a lot of seat time in the new M3/4s, I was not impressed with the steering and was not going to spend $80K on a car I was not in love with. I had expected more feedback than they delivered. The motors are outstanding. The Porsche is everything you've heard and read about and more. You want feedback, go drive one.

PS-BMW made me grumpy too...

[emtrey]

[QUOTE=P-Bass;20279774]Correct, this is why (after 20+ years) I left BMW. I then drove new EPS 911s and the older hydraulic 911s, I bought an '09 (Carrera S, 23K miles) with the hydraulic box. At the sake of sounding obnoxious, it wasn't about the money, it was about me getting exactly what I wanted, no more compromises. For me, the Porsche EPS is great, the hydraulic box is better.

Agree, fully.

Porsche's EPS may be better than other EPS systems but it still does not have the feel of hydraulic (or manual steering) assisted steering. I have test driven the 991 Porsches, Macan, etc. They do not remotely resemble the steering feel of my 2006 997.1.

I have 2 gripes with my 2013 335i--its too big and the steering feel is
just not good. Unfortunately, both of these "problems" seems to be trends in current auto design. I hope over time, they will figure out how to bring back steering feel as WE USED to KNOW IT.................

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by goj

Ehh, at this point none of the info is new.

I think C&D is especially melodramatic about the steering by saying no cars offer good feel. The m cars have good feel, even if it's not to the level of the e9x. Plain and simple they're trying to overdo the criticism of the steering alone to influence BMW to change. I see lots of negative spin in C&D's journalism nowadays about most cars/brands.

A quick read in their archives online shows how much the writing has changed

Originally Posted by metallicpea

I see it the other way. This is confirmation direct from BMW that they seek to only satisfy the mainstream customer and the enthusiast is getting pushed out of the brand.

Regardless of your view on what C&D writes, BMW's priorities scream loud and clear in these words. I really don't like it. I hope a bigger stink is made and BMW gains awareness and appreciation before it's too late.

With EPS and switchable modes, I would believe they can address this issue if they make the effort. I could not care less about how easy the car is to park - that is not remotely an important feature of a drivers car. I had a pre LCI E46 - right before the first attempt to reduce steering effort and I loved the steering on that car. It was heavier in parking lots than anything I had owned before or after - except my E46 M3, which I love, but it's not like you have to wrestle it or anything. How easy does it need to be? I just don't understand that complaint, and that seems to be their main design goal.

Also, they are clearly trying to isolate the driver from the road. Thats even worse. If the road is rough or grooved, I do need to feel it. Tells me more about the traction and stability of the surface I am driving on. But why do I bother griping, we won't be in control of our driving in the not so distant future anyway. It's a lost cause.

On a lighter note, when did I become such a grumpy old man?

I agree with elements of both of these. C&D, and others, are melodramatic and BMW needs to improve their EPS.

Having said that, if BMW wants to stay in business they have to compete in the market and grow their market share. I can tell you from experience it has been a very common complaint from average BMW buyers that the steering was too heavy, all the way up through the E9x.

I find it interesting that in spite of all the car rags gnashing of teeth they have routinely acknowledged that BMW's EPS is still direct and precise.

I have confidence BMW will continue to improve their EPS and that they are not abandoning the enthusiast driver. They have specifically stated that as long as there is a high enough demand for manual transmissions in the U.S. market they will continue to offer them here.

When folks say they're going to leave BMW I always wonder where they'll go. There just isn't another car maker that offers the complete package that BMW does. In spite of their good driving dynamics neither the ATS nor the Jaguar XE lives up to the overall utility the 3er/4er offers. And both get dinged for the quality of their interiors. The Lexus IS also doesn't match the 3er's utility and it is hideous inside and outside. The C Class is focused on becoming a mini S Class. The new A4 is the closest thing to the 3er and it drives like what it is, a FWD based chassis. And so far no one has matched the power, sophistication, and fuel economy of the motors BMW produces on a routine basis.

I feel confident the vast majority of the perceived short comings will be addressed with the G2x.

[simongym]

Originally Posted by TypeOne

I just sold my Honda S2000 and I must say, getting out of that thing and into my F30 is a completely different world. If there is one thing I'm not super happy about with the BMW is the steering feel. It wish that it was a bit more direct and that the lock-to-lock ratio was a bit more aggressive.

The S2000 is a like a razor blade and the F30 is more like a butter knife.

Really? I sold my S2000 in May and honestly I found the steering to be a disappointment. It was good, but not great and not special. I actually hadn't realized for a while that it was electronic power steering, before which I couldn't figure out why it felt numb and slow to respond. The car handled great and just like the F30 it's not like it was hard to use the steering wheel to make the car go where you want it to, it just lacks any real feedback.

I bought a 2004 330i ZHP after selling the S2000, and while the steering is better, it's not as good as I remember the steering being in my old 2002 325i base model. It was several years ago though, so maybe it's a sentimental bias.

Steering feel is the most rewarding aspect of a driver's car to me, followed closely by a well tuned suspension and good transmission. Of the cars I have driven enough to make a decent personal assessment, the F30 is easily the most well-rounded for normal or light sporty driving. The S2000 is the best for spirited driving as long as the roads are ok.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by goj

Ehh, at this point none of the info is new.

I think C&D is especially melodramatic about the steering by saying no cars offer good feel. The m cars have good feel, even if it's not to the level of the e9x. Plain and simple they're trying to overdo the criticism of the steering alone to influence BMW to change. I see lots of negative spin in C&D's journalism nowadays about most cars/brands.

A quick read in their archives online shows how much the writing has changed

I think you are not seeing how car magazines think. Car and Driver prefers cars that are fun to drive with great dynamics. They complain about modern EPS systems exactly because so far they are antithesis of what they like in a car. I think there's no doubt that recent offerings except the new Miata and the Cadillac ATS and CTS have regressed in terms of driving dynamics, especially steering feedback. This applies to BMW, Audi, Porsche and others.

[goj]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I think you are not seeing how car magazines think. Car and Driver prefers cars that are fun to drive with great dynamics. They complain about modern EPS systems exactly because so far they are antithesis of what they like in a car. I think there's no doubt that recent offerings except the new Miata and the Cadillac ATS and CTS have regressed in terms of driving dynamics, especially steering feedback. This applies to BMW, Audi, Porsche and others.

Sure I do. If this is only the case.. Why do they complain about prices so much outside of comparisons?

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by simongym

I bought a 2004 330i ZHP after selling the S2000, and while the steering is better, it's not as good as I remember the steering being in my old 2002 325i base model. It was several years ago though, so maybe it's a sentimental bias.

Yeah, that's gotta be sentiment. The steering on the 2002 E46 and 2004 E46 is exactly the same. It might be the ZHP driving dynamics that accounts for a different feel. ZHPs are so wonderful!!

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

True. My 2015 drives fine. A 2012 loaner I had was garbage. They are trying to make news out of nothing.

This is true, too. Pretty much across all the reviews I've watched, and I've watched a lot, the complaints about the F3x EPS have decreased and positive comments have increased. It's obviously getting improvements as time goes by.

[TypeOne]

Originally Posted by simongym

Really? I sold my S2000 in May and honestly I found the steering to be a disappointment. It was good, but not great and not special. I actually hadn't realized for a while that it was electronic power steering, before which I couldn't figure out why it felt numb and slow to respond. The car handled great and just like the F30 it's not like it was hard to use the steering wheel to make the car go where you want it to, it just lacks any real feedback.

I bought a 2004 330i ZHP after selling the S2000, and while the steering is better, it's not as good as I remember the steering being in my old 2002 325i base model. It was several years ago though, so maybe it's a sentimental bias.

Steering feel is the most rewarding aspect of a driver's car to me, followed closely by a well tuned suspension and good transmission. Of the cars I have driven enough to make a decent personal assessment, the F30 is easily the most well-rounded for normal or light sporty driving. The S2000 is the best for spirited driving as long as the roads are ok.

It's all relative to be honest... but I will commend the S2000's quick ratio EPS. One of my best friends that has an AP1 S2000 and an E93 M3 swears up and down the S2000 is leaps and bounds better in the steering department. I'm not going to say it's a better CAR, but the double wishbone front end and quick ratio rack, to me, feels better than my F30.

It could be overall weight too. The S2000 is a 2800lb car whereas the F30 is more like 3500lbs. The tire size and compound also play a roll since my AP2's 225 wide 17inch wheels were super light... much lighter than the 19" run flats my F30 has.

From a pure sportscar perspective the S2000 is a better handling car. Is it a better performing car? I can't say since I haven't taken my F30 to the track but my stock M-Sport suspension seems a bit soft and mushy. Body roll for days. However, the F30 is a more enjoyable car to drive in an overall sense. It's quieter, faster, roomier and all around nicer.

I love both cars but the S2000 is a toy whereas the F30 is something you can live with and enjoy everyday.

[PennSt8]

Back when I worked for M-B R&D, our facility conducted several car clinics with current and potential customers. The most consistent gripe/request from participants was to find a way to isolate vibrations and noise from the cabin and its occupants. Coupling that information, with the comments from those of BMW's engineer, all of this makes sense. I'm not excusing it, but it's rather obvious that these cars are being engineered to appeal to the masses. I mean look at the low brake dust, low bite brake pads or better yet the flat as a park bench seats that used to come standard on F3Xs.

I'm not expert on EPS, but I wonder if the economies of scale prevent BMW from offering a distinct driving experience for those prioritizing sport over luxury.

[metallicpea]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I agree with elements of both of these. C&D, and others, are melodramatic and BMW needs to improve their EPS.

Having said that, if BMW wants to stay in business they have to compete in the market and grow their market share. I can tell you from experience it has been a very common complaint from average BMW buyers that the steering was too heavy, all the way up through the E9x.

I find it interesting that in spite of all the car rags gnashing of teeth they have routinely acknowledged that BMW's EPS is still direct and precise.

I have confidence BMW will continue to improve their EPS and that they are not abandoning the enthusiast driver. They have specifically stated that as long as there is a high enough demand for manual transmissions in the U.S. market they will continue to offer them here.

When folks say they're going to leave BMW I always wonder where they'll go. There just isn't another car maker that offers the complete package that BMW does. In spite of their good driving dynamics neither the ATS nor the Jaguar XE lives up to the overall utility the 3er/4er offers. And both get dinged for the quality of their interiors. The Lexus IS also doesn't match the 3er's utility and it is hideous inside and outside. The C Class is focused on becoming a mini S Class. The new A4 is the closest thing to the 3er and it drives like what it is, a FWD based chassis. And so far no one has matched the power, sophistication, and fuel economy of the motors BMW produces on a routine basis.

I feel confident the vast majority of the perceived short comings will be addressed with the G2x.

It seems less likely I'll be buying another BMW in the future. All indicators are that it's departure from the ultimate driving machine will continue. I do hope this path changes, but...

If I didn't have my M3 in the garage, I would not have bought the F30.

Given the current crop of cars, and the fact my next new purchase might be in 10 years, who knows, probably a Miata.

Granted, the F30 has lots of things going for it, but if the next 2 generations follow the progression of the E46, E90 to F30, I can't see it having any benefits over it's competition. The large margin it had is all but gone.

I currently plan to keep my M3 indefinitely as nothing seems capable to take it's place.