[tuned2ride]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Lets face it, people who buy 320s are badge whores. They're buying just for the badge on the hood. Its not like these are super reliable cars either. Those people would be better served by a Civic or Corolla than a BMW.

Absurd on so many accounts.

When there is money to be saved, I am there.

Top E36/E46 in the past had 168-192HP up to 2000 and nobody really complained.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by tuned2ride

Absurd on so many accounts.

When there is money to be saved, I am there.

Top E36/E46 in the past had 168-192HP up to 2000 and nobody really complained.

You'll save even more with a Japanese econobox.

As I said, times are different now. Back then we didn't have what we do now. My Mustang had 86hp before the engine swap. Back then 300hp was a big deal. Now a V6 ponycar makes more and midsize family sedans make almost that. Time moves on, power needs increase to cover the extra weight of federally mandated crap.

[tuned2ride]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

You'll save even more with a Japanese econobox.

I don't want a Japanese econobox.

A 320i drives like a 328i, but with less ooomph, that's it.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Lets face it, people who buy 320s are badge whores. They're buying just for the badge on the hood. Its not like these are super reliable cars either. Those people would be better served by a Civic or Corolla than a BMW.

yeah this is bogus. if you know BMW, you know a base 320i with sport and a stick is the truest BMW currently made for the US market

A year ago you would've said the 328i was for badge whores when there was no 320. Just because it's the cheapest doesn't make it the shittiest. I'd take a 320 with sport, lighting, and a few other goodies over a no line halogen 328 turd off the lot.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by puma1552

yeah this is bogus. if you know BMW, you know a base 320i with sport and a stick is the truest BMW currently made for the US market

A year ago you would've said the 328i was for badge whores when there was no 320. Just because it's the cheapest doesn't make it the shittiest. I'd take a 320 with sport, lighting, and a few other goodies over a no line halogen 328 turd off the lot.

BMW today is not the BMW of the past. BMW has become a true luxury car company. A stripped out underpowered car is not todays BMW in America. Anything with a manual transmission certainly isn't todays BMW. They don't even offer sticks in most places on their performance cars. Its just here where all the whiners live, who want to live in the past.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

BMW today is not the BMW of the past. BMW has become a true luxury car company. A stripped out underpowered car is not todays BMW in America. Anything with a manual transmission certainly isn't todays BMW. They don't even offer sticks in most places on their performance cars. Its just here where all the whiners live, who want to live in the past.

By Scott's own admission, the 7 doesn't hold a candle to the S Class, upcoming 7 included. Mercedes offers luxury, Audi's interiors are second to none. BMW continues to offer low rent interiors for $10k more than the competition.

Doesn't sound like a true luxury car company to me. The price says it should be though, when you get charged $475 to have a ridiculous folding rear seat.

Today's BMW in America is a lot full of crappy ass black no line halogen 328s that still somehow cost close to $50k.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by puma1552

By Scott's own admission, the 7 doesn't hold a candle to the S Class, upcoming 7 included. Mercedes offers luxury, Audi's interiors are second to none. BMW continues to offer low rent interiors for $10k more than the competition.

Doesn't sound like a true luxury car company to me. The price says it should be though, when you get charged $475 to have a ridiculous folding rear seat.

Today's BMW in America is a lot full of crappy ass black no line halogen 328s that still somehow cost close to $50k.

I haven't been impressed by the new S-class. It may offer luxury, but it drives like the Queen Anne. Its by no means a value either. When a base V8 S550 with some options costs you $120k, something is wrong with that picture.

Audis interiors aren't all that great anymore. That coming from an Audi owner. My A6s dash squeaked and rattled plenty. The MMI is ass backwards. The A8 is almost an exact copy of the A6/A7 inside, and to get the good back seats, the Executive rear seat package will set you back $12k, and thats only if you can find a dealer who knows how to order it. Most don't, as its not a regular production option on anything except the W12.
Audi also doesn't stand behind their cars. With BMW I could get every thing fixed under the warranty or Maintenance plan for 4 years. Audi will give you 1 year and 1 service for many items. It took 2 dealers and fudging of an invoice to get a stupid shock mount replaced at 6k miles.

Screw that. I like the current BMW. I loved my X5M, I like my 750, and if all goes well, I'll like my 335GT.

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Its slow. When you're getting smoked by full size SUVs and pickups, your car is too slow.

Efficiency is BS. The 320 won't get any better economy than the 328. In fact, it will have to work harder, so it'll probably get worse.

This isn't the early 2000's any more. Times have changed. Econoboxes have 200hp and do sub 7 second 0-60s. A BMW having less power and being slower is inexcusable.

The 320 gets better MPG than the 328, that's a fact.

I do agree the 320 being intentionally underpowered is ridiculous but it's not as slow as the 4 cylinder 140HP Honda's.

[KneeDragr]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Its slow. When you're getting smoked by full size SUVs and pickups, your car is too slow.

Too slow for who? The general population or some adolescent brained moron who tries to race everyone to make up for a size deficiency somewhere?

The vast majority of drivers could care less if a SUV or pickup wants to accelerate faster than them, and wont feel the need to put the pedal to the medal to prove something to them.

If you want to drive fast with fast drivers go to the track.

[skw]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Lets face it, people who buy 320s are badge whores. They're buying just for the badge on the hood. Its not like these are super reliable cars either. Those people would be better served by a Civic or Corolla than a BMW.

Wow, talk about totally talking out your rear! Badge whore? For years, I was dying to get back into a 5er. About this time last year started shopping around for a F10. Great cars, but long story short, after driving several models and evaluating our needs, I found the F30 to be perfectly acceptable. For a 2nd car in the house, primarily commuter car to work but to also have fun with, I now find myself having a blast in a 320. RWD, 6MT, light weight, and a piggy back tune, there's no way I "would be better served by a Civic or Corolla". A 320 does indeed drive like a BMW. Not as stiff suspension and steering as an e90 sport, but still a lot better than other cars in it's price range. And speaking of price, the $$ saved in not getting a F10 or F30 335, I'm using towards another MB ML350 diesel.

Originally Posted by puma1552

yeah this is bogus. if you know BMW, you know a base 320i with sport and a stick is the truest BMW currently made for the US market

A year ago you would've said the 328i was for badge whores when there was no 320. Just because it's the cheapest doesn't make it the shittiest. I'd take a 320 with sport, lighting, and a few other goodies over a no line halogen 328 turd off the lot.

+1! See my sig. Performance Center delivery of a custom ordered sport rwd 320 > no-line off the lot 328. All day every day!

Originally Posted by Mike_L

I haven't been impressed by the new S-class. It may offer luxury, but it drives like the Queen Anne. Its by no means a value either. When a base V8 S550 with some options costs you $120k, something is wrong with that picture.

Audis interiors aren't all that great anymore. That coming from an Audi owner. My A6s dash squeaked and rattled plenty. The MMI is ass backwards. The A8 is almost an exact copy of the A6/A7 inside, and to get the good back seats, the Executive rear seat package will set you back $12k, and thats only if you can find a dealer who knows how to order it. Most don't, as its not a regular production option on anything except the W12.
Audi also doesn't stand behind their cars. With BMW I could get every thing fixed under the warranty or Maintenance plan for 4 years. Audi will give you 1 year and 1 service for many items. It took 2 dealers and fudging of an invoice to get a stupid shock mount replaced at 6k miles.

Screw that. I like the current BMW. I loved my X5M, I like my 750, and if all goes well, I'll like my 335GT.

In this class of vehicles I'm a bit behind the times. Last A8 I drove was in '06, so I can't comment on that front. I don't have any seat time in the new MB W222 yet but I have had the pleasure of spending time behind the wheels of the W221 S550 (sport) and the F01 750Li M-sport (but w/o the adaptive drive & adjustable dampers) on a few occasions. Between the 2 cars, the Benz was the clear winner in both driving relaxed and spirited. I expected more from the 750, within reason of course considering the weight of these. Time and time again, the S550 was a better drive.

[skw]

Originally Posted by KneeDragr

Too slow for who? The general population or some adolescent brained moron who tries to race everyone to make up for a size deficiency somewhere?

The vast majority of drivers could care less if a SUV or pickup wants to accelerate faster than them, and wont feel the need to put the pedal to the medal to prove something to them.

If you want to drive fast with fast drivers go to the track.

Exactly! Especially these days when I drop off my daughter at school and I'm behind one soccer mom in a ML63 and another in a GL550. The slowest of which is the GL which gets to 60 in 5.3 seconds. The ML is in the low 4's about on par (if not quicker) than the F01 750Li.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

The 320 gets better MPG than the 328, that's a fact.

They may say it does, but in the real world, I doubt it.

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by skw

Exactly! Especially these days when I drop off my daughter at school and I'm behind one soccer mom in a ML63 and another in a GL550. The slowest of which is the GL which gets to 60 in 5.3 seconds. The ML is in the low 4's about on par (if not quicker) than the F01 750Li.

You're comparing Apples to Oranges. A 320 cost 33K, an ML63 cost almost 100K. I'd sure hope an SUV that cost 3 times as much beats an entry level sport sedan.

Or should we compare it to the ML250 that only makes 200HP as a hefty tank SUV and costs 50K?

Not sure where you're going with this argument.

Originally Posted by Mike_L

They may say it does, but in the real world, I doubt it.

Not sure what to tell you:

320 MPG

328 MPG

A huge difference? I guess not, but still a difference.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Not sure what to tell you:

320 MPG

328 MPG

A huge difference? I guess not, but still a difference.

I know what the government says, but they also say the EcoBoost gets good economy. Real life and what happens on a dyno or under controlled conditions are two different things.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by puma1552

yeah this is bogus. if you know BMW, you know a base 320i with sport and a stick is the truest BMW currently made for the US market.

My take is the M235i beats 320i+ZSP as the best driver's car that BMW currently offers in US.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My take is the M235i beats 320i+ZSP as the best driver's car that BMW currently offers in US.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, for sure it outperforms the 320, but I was more getting at the BMW DNA - that not-too-powerful, sparsely optioned, well balanced chassis that is a lot of fun to drive with a manual. The 3 series DNA goes back a long time to when that's what it was, and the 320i in a lot of ways represents a return to that, even if the intention from BMW is different in that this time around it's to get people in the door since 3 series pricing has become so bloated.

[skw]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

You're comparing Apples to Oranges. A 320 cost 33K, an ML63 cost almost 100K. I'd sure hope an SUV that cost 3 times as much beats an entry level sport sedan.

Or should we compare it to the ML250 that only makes 200HP as a hefty tank SUV and costs 50K?

Not sure where you're going with this argument.

It was in reference to the statement below:

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Its slow. When you're getting smoked by full size SUVs and pickups, your car is too slow.

Granted, an ML63 might've been a bit extreme, but that and the GL550 are the 2 I see everyday. Both full size suv's that can smoke many of our cars. So not being faster than a suv or pickup, as stated, does not necessarily mean "your car is too slow".

As an aside, the ML250 is the 4-cylinder diesel (also in the E-class) replacing the ML350 6-cylinder diesel which I currently have and am in the process of picking up a 2nd one, a 2014, while they can still be found. The 250 is too small of an engine for a 5,000lb suv, hence rated at 8.9 seconds. So I guess a proper comparison would be my ML350 (7.0) vs my 320i (7.1)?

[skw]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My take is the M235i beats 320i+ZSP as the best driver's car that BMW currently offers in US.

I'd say 2 different target audiences. I can see the person buying an M235i spending more time at the track, early 30's or empty nester. The 320i more for someone who needs the space/family sedan.

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by skw

It was in reference to the statement below:



Granted, an ML63 might've been a bit extreme, but that and the GL550 are the 2 I see everyday. Both full size suv's that can smoke many of our cars. So not being faster than a suv or pickup, as stated, does not necessarily mean "your car is too slow".

As an aside, the ML250 is the 4-cylinder diesel (also in the E-class) replacing the ML350 6-cylinder diesel which I currently have and am in the process of picking up a 2nd one, a 2014, while they can still be found. The 250 is too small of an engine for a 5,000lb suv, hence rated at 8.9 seconds. So I guess a proper comparison would be my ML350 (7.0) vs my 320i (7.1)?

I guess I'm still confused and this is now a silly argument. I would expect an SUV that still costs 48K compared to the 320 (33K) to be almost as fast as the 320's 0-60, which it is.

My comment was also in reference to the one you quoted above, which I'm assuming was just being sarcastic because it holds no water.

[skw]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

I guess I'm still confused and this is now a silly argument. I would expect an SUV that still costs 48K compared to the 320 (33K) to be almost as fast as the 320's 0-60, which it is.

My comment was also in reference to the one you quoted above, which I'm assuming was just being sarcastic because it holds no water.

Nevermind at this point. I was just saying that the blanket statement of a car being judged as too slow on the merit of it being smoked by a full size suv or pickup is ridiculous. Price was not given as a consideration. Looking back, I think we've strayed from the original intent of what the OP was asking (which was answered all the way back in post 5!).

[Westsider45]

Anyone who has driven a 320i Sport 6MT with only one or two options [especially not the weight adding power seats, heated seats, Prem Pkg (moonroof) etc.] knows that it is the most well-balanced, best-handling F30 out there.

The 328 and 335 feel top-heavy in comparison, while the 320 weights up in corners such that it feels like there is an almost perfectly linear relationship between steering angle-weight transfer to outside wheels-normal force on outside tires-kinetic friction generated by the contact patches.

If only the 328 were available with the same spare list of standard features [and therefore curb weight,] it would be the perfect combination of the 320's poise/balance with the more powerful version of the N20.

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by Westsider45

Anyone who has driven a 320i Sport 6MT with only one or two options [especially not the weight adding power seats, heated seats, Prem Pkg (moonroof) etc.] knows that it is the most well-balanced, best-handling F30 out there.

The 328 and 335 feel top-heavy in comparison, while the 320 weights up in corners such that it feels like there is an almost perfectly linear relationship between steering angle-weight transfer to outside wheels-normal force on outside tires-kinetic friction generated by the contact patches.

If only the 328 were available with the same spare list of standard features [and therefore curb weight,] it would be the perfect combination of the 320's poise/balance with the more powerful version of the N20.

thats how i ordered my 328. no moonroof, manual, gonna keep weight down.