[bunker]

Originally Posted by puma1552

I came into this thread expecting a nice post about the title of the thread. Instead, I came in to read an incoherent, disjointed mess of statements and text, only loosely related to either the title, or even each other.

#disappointment

Well that was totally unnecessary. Not enough coffee this morning? Sheesh...

[bunker]

Originally Posted by melloww22

Supra hands down only if it similar to the FT-1 concept

I have to admit, I'm a little intrigued by a Supra too.

[bunker]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I would like to take a moment to deconstruct the sheer stupidity present in this statement.

You may not recognize it by the humble output of their manufacturing engine, but Toyota is recognized as one of the greatest manufacturers (of anything) of all time. Entire books have been written about the management philosophies that led Toyota to being the in the top 5 automotive manufacturers (by volume) since I can remember. Toyota regularly achieves the lowest defect rate in the various industries in which they compete.

Yes, they are the polar opposite of BMW in terms of their automotive design philosophy, but they could learn a lot from each other. Imagine a car with the driving character of a BMW and defect-rate of a Toyota. I would certainly welcome more reliability.

This. Thank you for writing it.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Toyota makes the best cars in the world for people who think cars are just to get you from A to B. They make transportation.
BMW is the other extreme, they are for people who enjoy the drive more than arriving.
So I understand where he is coming from

I can understand having some concerns -- consider how diluted the brand has become already -- but #6 font size, bold screaming seems a rather childish.

I fully recognize the differences in philosophy, but Toyota is a fantastic company, and they know how to manufacture products as well as anyone in the industry. It's one car, so I think it's kind of silly to lose one's mind over it.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Not really
BMW M cars were known to have fantastic naturally aspirated engines
It was their heart. It was their selling point.
Now the M3/M4 is turning into a souped up 335/435
I can't justify paying close to $20,000 more for the M4 vs a 435
On what is essentially, the same engine with a higher tune
I didn't feel that with the E92 M3.
I knew I had a custom built engine, that had something special (8400rpm redline)
Is the new engine any better than the 335/435 engine with an aggressive tune?
To me the new M4 is a car is have to be convinced to buy
E92 with the V8 didn't need any convincing

To me, turbos are the dumb mans path to high horsepower.
Making high horsepower WITHOUT turbos is much harder, and in my opinion
Much more rewarding when you drive it
I've driven the new M5, and yes it's a very good engine
But in no way does it compare with the S65 or S85

The best thing about the alfa is the weight
Not many cars that weigh close to 2000 pounds
Heck my 25 year old M3 weighs 2700 with similar power to the alfa

It's hard to argue with the viewpoint that the heart of an M-car is the engine. With the original M3 being built around the S14, which traces its heritage to the M12, it's an undeniable part of M-history. Unfortunately, if you link your concept of penultimate automotive performance to the naturally aspirated engineering philosophy, you've anchored yourself in the past. Enthusiast's desires have taken a back seat to environmental concerns. I'm not sure what anyone expects BMW M GmbH to do about that?

It's really puzzling to me that you give Alfa a pass on the engine in the 4C, but dismiss the M3/4 as "the same engine with a higher tune"; which isn't factual, btw. The engine in the 4C is an aluminum block turbocharged I4. There's nothing particularly exotic about it. The S55 is based on an ultra-lightweight block design, plus it gets some significant upgrades, including a forged crank and lightweight pistons. It also gets upgrades in the cooling and oil cooling/delivery departments. Tracking the N55 often results in limp mode because the engine sub-systems aren't made for that type of duty. I don't think the S55 is going to suffer from those issues.

To say that turbochargers are the "dumb man's" path to horsepower is just ignorant. I'm sorry, but there's nothing "dumb" about building a turbocharged engine that delivers usable performance. If anything, turbocharging significantly complicates engine design. Turbochargers have a fairly complex set of fluid dynamics that must be matched to the engine displacement and target operating RPM range. Not to mention all the other crazy shit that happens when you pressurize the intake charge and put a turbine in the exit path of the exhaust. Sure, it's easy to throw up huge peak numbers on a dyno, but it's just as easy to end up with a car that triples it's torque in a 1000 RPM range. Driving a car like that is miserable. It requires unrelenting focus.

I'm eager to hear what the automotive press has to say about the S55. The character of a naturally aspirated engine will be missed, to be sure, but there are plenty of things to like about the character of a turbocharged engine. No race car driver ever said, "Gee, I wish this car had less usable torque on corner exit."

With high-revving, naturally aspirated engines made impossible by emissions and fuel economy regulations, my hope is that BMW M's focus returns to chassis development. The M3/M4 is a transitional car. There are CFRP components, but as we've seen in the rumors, weight isn't anywhere near lightweight, but if the 3300-3400 lb curb weight holds true, it will be a step in the right direction (considering that the car got larger and lost weight). I'm holding out hope that the new carbon tub chassis Z3 and rumored CFRP heavy M2 will bring us back to weight ranges that really feel tossable. Automotive engineers have become extremely good at tuning suspensions to hide weight, so I can only imagine what they'll be able to do with a truly lightweight car.

[Vector Pilot]

Carbon fiber, better weight distribution and possibly combined with the 2.0 liter twin scroll turbo with no significant increase in price, [I'll believe when I see it] will make the Z3 a worthy challenger to the Porsche Boxster.

[sonicbimmer19]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Yes Z5 will effectively replace the Z4 and retain the folding hard top.

G30 is the new 5er.

So Z3 is not successor to Z4, Z5 is successor to Z4.
Z3 is successor to the E36/37 Z3?

And will we see a FWD Z1 that shares platform with mini roadster/coupe?

Is the size of z5 going to be comparable to SL or more of F type?

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Now the M3/M4 is turning into a souped up 335/435
I can't justify paying close to $20,000 more for the M4 vs a 435
On what is essentially, the same engine with a higher tune
I didn't feel that with the E92 M3.
I knew I had a custom built engine, that had something special (8400rpm redline)
Is the new engine any better than the 335/435 engine with an aggressive tune?
To me the new M4 is a car is have to be convinced to buy
E92 with the V8 didn't need any convincing

Please read this, because you couldn't be more wrong:
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=892746

FYI, your beloved S65 V8 is heavily based off the S85 V10. Both great engines, and it doesn't make them less special that they share design. That's just what savvy engineers do. Building and improving on already established designs.

I prefer the NA engines as well, but I have to say I'm excited about the closed-deck S55 bring on the torque!

[aajami]

Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19

So Z3 is not successor to Z4, Z5 is successor to Z4.
Z3 is successor to the E36/37 Z3?

And will we see a FWD Z1 that shares platform with mini roadster/coupe?

Is the size of z5 going to be comparable to SL or more of F type?

Scott would know for sure, but based on info he's hinted at in the past:

The upcoming Z3 is meant to be smaller than the E89 and have a soft top. Not sure if it'll be FWD or RWD.

The upcoming Z5 is meant to be the replacement to the E89 (and be slightly bigger), and have a hard top. It will be RWD and share the platform and/or engine with whatever Toyota is doing (though not the FT-1). Not sure about the size, but I hope it's more of an F-Type and less of an SL.

There are plans for an even smaller FWD roadster based on the UKL architecture that will either be called the Z1 or Z2.

[SCOTT26]

Some latest developments.

Possible collaboration on further advanced sub-compact sports car programme under discussion.

Jointly developed emphasis on Rear wheel Drive architecture.

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform for joint produced sub-compact architecture.

Z1 could be Rear Wheel Drive. Both manufacturers eyeing Coupe and Roadster.

MINI could become involved as BMW seek one concept replacement sports car for Current Coupe/Roadster.
Not based on existing MINI but all new body design.

First Rear Wheel Drive MINI model possible.

Advanced next generation hybrid II technology.

In other news possible radical M variant Coupe only of Z5 under discussion to rival upcoming Mercedes AMG GT.
But proposal as the BMW zM.

[MPowerZ32]

That's the type of news I've been waiting for.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform for joint produced sub-compact architecture..

Aaaaand we're back!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform for joint produced sub-compact architecture.

HOT DAMN!

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform for joint produced sub-compact architecture.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Some latest developments.

Possible collaboration on further advanced sub-compact sports car programme under discussion.

Jointly developed emphasis on Rear wheel Drive architecture.

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform for joint produced sub-compact architecture.

Z1 could be Rear Wheel Drive. Both manufacturers eyeing Coupe and Roadster.

MINI could become involved as BMW seek one concept replacement sports car for Current Coupe/Roadster.
Not based on existing MINI but all new body design.

First Rear Wheel Drive MINI model possible.

Advanced next generation hybrid II technology.

In other news possible radical M variant Coupe only of Z5 under discussion to rival upcoming Mercedes AMG GT.
But proposal as the BMW zM.

Best news since years.

Z5 M Coupé!!!


But I would not have too much hope, I yet remember BMW CS concept...

[aajami]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Some latest developments.

Possible collaboration on further advanced sub-compact sports car programme under discussion.

Jointly developed emphasis on Rear wheel Drive architecture.

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform for joint produced sub-compact architecture.

Z1 could be Rear Wheel Drive. Both manufacturers eyeing Coupe and Roadster.

MINI could become involved as BMW seek one concept replacement sports car for Current Coupe/Roadster.
Not based on existing MINI but all new body design.

First Rear Wheel Drive MINI model possible.

Advanced next generation hybrid II technology.

In other news possible radical M variant Coupe only of Z5 under discussion to rival upcoming Mercedes AMG GT.
But proposal as the BMW zM.

Wow. Now this is news that panders to your audience, Scott

BMW developing a dedicated sports car? Love it.

BMW abandoning plans for FWD? Love it.

BMW considering transitioning Mini to RWD? Love it.

But why is there discussion about such an abrupt and dramatic about-face, Scott? What's prompting this massive shift? And what's going to happen to UKL now that the 2-series Active Tourer is so close to production? Will it only be used for Mini?

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform...

hallelujah.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by aajami

Wow. Now this is news that panders to your audience, Scott

BMW developing a dedicated sports car? Love it.

BMW abandoning plans for FWD? Love it.

BMW considering transitioning Mini to RWD? Love it.

But why is there discussion about such an abrupt and dramatic about-face, Scott? What's prompting this massive shift? And what's going to happen to UKL now that the 2-series Active Tourer is so close to production? Will it only be used for Mini?

No the UKL architecture will still sit under various MINI and BMW models , starting with the all-new brilliant new MINI and for BMW the 2er Active Tourer.
This is about ongoing collaboration with Toyota. Its no secret they are thinking about a new line of sports cars below and above the GT86.
Which could see the car develop under this or just use the available UKL architecture.

Some MINI and BMW models will depend on the UKL in order to be competitive in their respective segments such as the Active Tourer and various other models planned. Both MINI and BMW by the end of the decade aim to have annual sales of over 600,000 vehicles from both brands. This is significant because this segment is continually growing and both MINI and BMW will take advantage.
Profitability on the new architecture has entire new prospects than before.

The prospects for the next generation of MINI continue the appeal of the brand.
But also answer practicality for customers who need extra flexibility.
The next MINI Countryman is influenced by the recent Dakar winning car but with a more evolutionary appearance and sided by the BMW X1.
The ultimate Countryman will be the high performance JCW that will show a shrinking of official JCW models. High performance compact SAVs are in demand and BMW intend to retaliate with a 380 PS X1M.

The PACEMAN model will adopt a more sportier persona than the more SUV like Countryman as a twin to the BMW X2 which will also offer like the PACEMAN. Both a 3dr and 5dr format.

The MINI Clubman resorts to a 5dr format to increase practicality. Having been through test clinics across the globe, the Clubman has received excellent feedback. In regards to increasing the Clubman's appeal and to halt decreasing sales of the Countryman before that vehicle is replaced. The Clubman will be offered with All4 all-wheel drive.
What's even more interesting is a proposal put forth of a jacked-up with slightly higher clearance Clubman with extra mouldings around the lower areas of the car. Some proposals even feature wood panelling graphics for that nostalgia touch.

Possibly the most exciting and appealing new MINI will be a four door MINI sedan. A prospect that takes the MINI design language to a new segment but also offers a stylish interpretation of a conventional sedan.
The roof for example features the same reverse-cap outline introduced on the MINI Coupe.
The glasshouse as per all MINIs wraps around the car. Taillights are placed like the PACEMAN and forthcoming Clubman. And the front headlights are more bullet shaped surrounding the new Grille. It is stylish as early Italian brand sedans from the sixties. Some reckon it looks like a small Maserati.

[aajami]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

No the UKL architecture will still sit under various MINI and BMW models , starting with the all-new brilliant new MINI and for BMW the 2er Active Tourer.
This is about ongoing collaboration with Toyota. Its no secret they are thinking about a new line of sports cars below and above the GT86.
Which could see the car develop under this or just use the available UKL architecture.

Possibly the most exciting and appealing new MINI will be a four door MINI sedan. A prospect that takes the MINI design language to a new segment but also offers a stylish interpretation of a conventional sedan.
The roof for example features the same reverse-cap outline introduced on the MINI Coupe.
The glasshouse as per all MINIs wraps around the car. Taillights are placed like the PACEMAN and forthcoming Clubman. And the front headlights are more bullet shaped surrounding the new Grille. It is stylish as early Italian brand sedans from the sixties. Some reckon it looks like a small Maserati.

Interesting bit about the Mini sedan. I assume it will be FWD.

I would love to get more clarity on the upcoming Z cars. Specifically, is the shared architecture with Toyota meant for all the upcoming Z cars? Are the upcoming cars the Z1 (compact FWD or RWD roadster), Z3 (small RWD, soft-top roadster that's a bit smaller than the E89), and Z5 (mid-size upmarket hardtop roadster and coupe meant to compete with AMG GT, R8, 911, etc)? Or is there still talk of a Z2 and Z4, and if there, where do those fit?

I would also like to hear you chime in on the fate of the F2x 2-series Gran Coupe.

[yousefnjr]

Funny that it takes Toyota's help to keep BMW RWD. Where are the Toyota haters now??

[Koldun]

Really intrigued by this. I'm hoping the next generation will be much like the F-type concept, with a performance engine mated to an electric motor to give power or 50mpg as needed, with MGU-K and MGU-H units and carbon fiber everything for sub 3000lb curbweight.

[cjwb1984]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Some latest developments.

Possible collaboration on further advanced sub-compact sports car programme under discussion.

Jointly developed emphasis on Rear wheel Drive architecture.

BMW could abandon FWD UKL platform for joint produced sub-compact architecture.

Z1 could be Rear Wheel Drive. Both manufacturers eyeing Coupe and Roadster.

MINI could become involved as BMW seek one concept replacement sports car for Current Coupe/Roadster.
Not based on existing MINI but all new body design.

First Rear Wheel Drive MINI model possible.

Advanced next generation hybrid II technology.

In other news possible radical M variant Coupe only of Z5 under discussion to rival upcoming Mercedes AMG GT.
But proposal as the BMW zM.

I love driving my Z4 everyday. I love the overall design. Its one of the best designed hardtop convertible out there. I hope BMW continues that language and well designed hardtop in the Z5. I hope they don't take it too much upmarket. If BMW builds a Z5 convertible out of that sketch , I would definitely be one of the many potential customers.

What's the expected eta on the Z3 and/or Z5? Since the E89 has been around since 2009 and prior to that E85 was a on a 6 year cycle from 2002 to 2008. So its getting right around the time for a replacement...