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      10-07-2016, 11:15 AM   #1
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Question regarding another issue and lemon law

So my car is having idrive issues again. Unfortunately I am just outside the 1 year timeframe from when I purchased my car however the car has been in the shop numerous times for varying different issues. My question is, with a system like the idrive system, does it have to be the exact same issue each time or could it be a different issue relating to the idrive system that i'm taking it in for each time? What I mean is, I had multiple problems when I first got the car with the idrive randomly rebooting, I took it in and the dealer couldn't replicate and didn't do anything and it went away for a while but now just recently it has consistently been rebooting, sometimes twice per car ride and I've had other issues relating to bluetooth, USB and the rearview camera in the car which all relay to the idrive headhunt however it wasn't the exact same problem.

I don't know what to do. I'm tired of scheduling an appointment every month to have something fixed on my car but at the same rate, it's not always the exact same issue and often times the issues are so intermittent that the dealer can't replicate the problem anyway.
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      10-07-2016, 01:58 PM   #2
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What state do you reside in? Lemon laws are state specific. I suggest to research lemon law in your state. The information is easily found. In California as example, it typically has to be the same issue - described as the same issue in the repair orders (very important) - and not fixed at least 5 times.
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      10-07-2016, 02:55 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadify View Post
So my car is having idrive issues again. Unfortunately I am just outside the 1 year timeframe from when I purchased my car however the car has been in the shop numerous times for varying different issues. My question is, with a system like the idrive system, does it have to be the exact same issue each time or could it be a different issue relating to the idrive system that i'm taking it in for each time? What I mean is, I had multiple problems when I first got the car with the idrive randomly rebooting, I took it in and the dealer couldn't replicate and didn't do anything and it went away for a while but now just recently it has consistently been rebooting, sometimes twice per car ride and I've had other issues relating to bluetooth, USB and the rearview camera in the car which all relay to the idrive headhunt however it wasn't the exact same problem.

I don't know what to do. I'm tired of scheduling an appointment every month to have something fixed on my car but at the same rate, it's not always the exact same issue and often times the issues are so intermittent that the dealer can't replicate the problem anyway.
The laws are state-specific. In CA, 18 months is the key time period from purchase date, and the dealer only gets 3 chances to fix the issue, 2 if it's safety related. Start taking photos/videos of the issue when it occurs. Just get on the phone with a good lemon law attorney and they'll tell you if you have a good case. An experienced one will also tell you what their experience has been with BMW vs. others. The attorney should have to get paid out of the manufacturer's settlement so they have nothing to gain by taking your case unless it's solid.
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      10-07-2016, 04:14 PM   #4
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Sorry I forgot it didn't say which state I'm from. I'm in Colorado and according to the websites I've read the issue has to have been attempted to be fixed within the first 12 months. I'll see if I can find an attorney just to ask regarding this issue
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      10-07-2016, 05:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadify View Post
Sorry I forgot it didn't say which state I'm from. I'm in Colorado and according to the websites I've read the issue has to have been attempted to be fixed within the first 12 months. I'll see if I can find an attorney just to ask regarding this issue
That may mean that you must first bring the issue to the dealers attention before 12 months of ownership elapsed.
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      10-07-2016, 08:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5
Quote:
Originally Posted by kadify View Post
Sorry I forgot it didn't say which state I'm from. I'm in Colorado and according to the websites I've read the issue has to have been attempted to be fixed within the first 12 months. I'll see if I can find an attorney just to ask regarding this issue
That may mean that you must first bring the issue to the dealers attention before 12 months of ownership elapsed.
That would be unfortunate
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      10-07-2016, 09:30 PM   #7
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Another thought: have you contacted BMWNA yet? I had repeated problems with the transmission and they worked with the dealer to resolve.
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      10-07-2016, 10:37 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by otay View Post
Another thought: have you contacted BMWNA yet? I had repeated problems with the transmission and they worked with the dealer to resolve.
No i haven't. I have an appointment on monday so maybe I'll call BMWNA tomorrow (if they're open) or monday morning before my appointment. Either way I'm just tired of my car being fixed for dumb issues. And as nice as getting a nice loaner is, I want to drive my car. I'm at approx. 5-6 weeks worth of dealership time so far=/

Last edited by kadify; 10-07-2016 at 10:44 PM..
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      10-07-2016, 11:21 PM   #9
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Lemon laws have been created to ensure that the manufacturer's warranty delivers on its promise, i.e. failure to address the same problem anytime during the factory warranty would be subject to lemon law. The problem does not have to occur within certain number of months of vehicle ownership. In California, an unresolved problem anytime within 4 years/50k BMW warranty period can be the catalyst to trigger lemon law. But please check the laws in your state.

Keep detailed records. Scan all repair orders. Triple check how your SA describes the problem in the repair order. It has to be identical to previous complaints.
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      10-08-2016, 12:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post

Keep detailed records. Scan all repair orders. Triple check how your SA describes the problem in the repair order. It has to be identical to previous complaints.
Thanks. I'll check through my repair orders tomorrow to see what they all say but I know the issues were all different so it won't be consistently the same issue.
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      10-08-2016, 11:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
That may mean that you must first bring the issue to the dealers attention before 12 months of ownership elapsed.
That's 100% what it means. You can come to them, years later, and just say "I had this problem in the first 12 months of ownership that I never told you about."
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      10-12-2016, 09:58 AM   #12
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Well I just got the news... The car needed an entirely new head unit and a few other supporting parts, haven't gotten the car back yet so don't know for sure what all was replaced. Hopefully this will be the last of my issues with this car, at least until I have another rattle, that is...
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      10-12-2016, 11:32 AM   #13
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Glad to learn BMWNA agreed to replace more parts. However, larger questions still remain open.

Why weren't these parts replaced earlier? This could mean that BMW doesn't know the root cause. The decision to replace more expensive parts is a part of customer service as much as it's also a part of "pre lemon law" strategy. Problems reported after head unit replacement may have different symptoms and another cycle of "5 unresolved attempts" starts.

In your original post, several devices are affected: head unit, Bluetooth, USB, rear camera. Wiring harnesses is one likely common denominator in these problems. The typical diagnostic approach is to begin replacing three components in a logical sequence: sender, wiring harness, receiver. In your case, BMWNA is showing willingness to replace one component (head unit = sender) which could play a role - not all three.

I hope BMWNA and your dealer will successfully resolve all reported problems.

I also suggest to speak to your SA and discuss how they plan to determine if wiring harnesses may be at fault.
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      10-12-2016, 01:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
Glad to learn BMWNA agreed to replace more parts. However, larger questions still remain open.

Why weren't these parts replaced earlier? This could mean that BMW doesn't know the root cause. The decision to replace more expensive parts is a part of customer service as much as it's also a part of "pre lemon law" strategy. Problems reported after head unit replacement may have different symptoms and another cycle of "5 unresolved attempts" starts.

In your original post, several devices are affected: head unit, Bluetooth, USB, rear camera. Wiring harnesses is one likely common denominator in these problems. The typical diagnostic approach is to begin replacing three components in a logical sequence: sender, wiring harness, receiver. In your case, BMWNA is showing willingness to replace one component (head unit = sender) which could play a role - not all three.

I hope BMWNA and your dealer will successfully resolve all reported problems.

I also suggest to speak to your SA and discuss how they plan to determine if wiring harnesses may be at fault.
I'm actually at a new dealer because I was having problems with the previous dealer and was getting tired of taking it back for similar issues each time. Unfortunately the SA I got at the new dealer is a complete and utter asshole. So much so, that even if the techs fix my car this go around IDK if I'd take my car back to this dealer for servicing...

I'll bring that up with the SA I'm working with when I pick up my car, hopefully tomorrow. I know they're also replacing the actual wiring to the USB/Aux port. When talking to the SA he didn't know the specifics on what the techs actually found that led them to replace the whole head unit, just that they had performed an update and had "still noticed issues". So I want to get an actual answer of what that means when I get my car. Who knows maybe they are replacing the wiring harness too and the SA just didn't say so over the phone.

He didn't seem to know much about what was actually being done on my car. All he basically said on the phone was "Well they're replacing your professional head unit assembly, which is 2300 dollars... blah blah blah... but your car should still be under warranty, I'll have to check." I was like "Um yeah my car is a year old and definitely doesn't have 50k miles yet so...."
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      10-12-2016, 03:31 PM   #15
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I am having the same issues with my F36 that I purchased in Feb 2015. The unit would reboot every 2 minutes on the dot as I am driving. I recorded on my cell and showed to my SA. It's happened twice now, both times replacing the head unit. I'm waiting for the third time for this to occur before I start considering the lemon law.
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      10-12-2016, 03:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lp232
I am having the same issues with my F36 that I purchased in Feb 2015. The unit would reboot every 2 minutes on the dot as I am driving. I recorded on my cell and showed to my SA. It's happened twice now, both times replacing the head unit. I'm waiting for the third time for this to occur before I start considering the lemon law.
Trying to clarify. The head unit kept rebooting despite being replaced twice? If that's the case, the problem is broader than the head unit unit. Replacing hidden wiring harnesses is labor intensive. Manufacturers are reluctant to approve these repairs at first, although eventually most do. Keep up the pressure, be polite, and call BMWNA customer service.
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      10-12-2016, 03:46 PM   #17
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there are STATE and FEDERAL lemon laws
Magnuson-Moss is the federal one
for CA, we also have Song-Beverly Act

consult a local attorney
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      10-12-2016, 05:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lp232 View Post
I am having the same issues with my F36 that I purchased in Feb 2015. The unit would reboot every 2 minutes on the dot as I am driving. I recorded on my cell and showed to my SA. It's happened twice now, both times replacing the head unit. I'm waiting for the third time for this to occur before I start considering the lemon law.
I'm sorry I'm just on my first replacement and I'm hopeful it fixes this issue. I honestly would listen to cfm56d7b. He understands this issue way more than I do. I'd address the issue that it probably isn't the headunit that is causing the issue in your car with your dealer.
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      10-12-2016, 05:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadify View Post
I'm actually at a new dealer because I was having problems with the previous dealer and was getting tired of taking it back for similar issues each time. Unfortunately the SA I got at the new dealer is a complete and utter asshole. So much so, that even if the techs fix my car this go around IDK if I'd take my car back to this dealer for servicing...

I'll bring that up with the SA I'm working with when I pick up my car, hopefully tomorrow. I know they're also replacing the actual wiring to the USB/Aux port. When talking to the SA he didn't know the specifics on what the techs actually found that led them to replace the whole head unit, just that they had performed an update and had "still noticed issues". So I want to get an actual answer of what that means when I get my car. Who knows maybe they are replacing the wiring harness too and the SA just didn't say so over the phone.

He didn't seem to know much about what was actually being done on my car. All he basically said on the phone was "Well they're replacing your professional head unit assembly, which is 2300 dollars... blah blah blah... but your car should still be under warranty, I'll have to check." I was like "Um yeah my car is a year old and definitely doesn't have 50k miles yet so...."
In most states, your car needs to be undrivable or unsafe to drive to qualify for lemon law protection (as well as out of service 3 times or total of 30 days). Your Nav unit/iDrive would not trigger this in most States.

You would have to do your own research as to what the law specifies in Colorado.


EDIT:

Must be in 4 times for SAME problem WITHIN first 12 months or cumulative 30 days out of service, whichever comes first.

Furthermore Nav System/iDrive would not substantially impair the use of the car.

"Under the law, a “reasonable number of attempts” to repair a defect applies when the same defect remains after it has been subject to repair four (4) or more times within the rst year after the date of original delivery. It also applies when the vehicle is out of service for repairs for a cumulative total of thirty (30) or more business days during the warranty term or one year after original delivery, whichever comes first.

Defects, such as rattles or squeaks, which do not substantially impair the use or market value of the vehicle are not covered. Neither are defects resulting from abuse, neglect, or unauthorized modi cations or alterations of the vehicle by a consumer."


Source:

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sit...R%202440_0.pdf

Last edited by Kabrich; 10-12-2016 at 05:29 PM..
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      10-12-2016, 05:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lp232 View Post
I am having the same issues with my F36 that I purchased in Feb 2015. The unit would reboot every 2 minutes on the dot as I am driving. I recorded on my cell and showed to my SA. It's happened twice now, both times replacing the head unit. I'm waiting for the third time for this to occur before I start considering the lemon law.
You are outside of Lemon Law in California which is for 18 months or 18k miles, whichever comes first, so you would be unsuccessful under Lemon Law.

Furthermore, California Lemon Law says it has to be something that would make the vehicle unsafe by causing a possible death or serious bodily injury to be considered.

Again, rebooting Nav System/ iDrive would not qualify.

Within the Song-Beverly Act, there is a presumption guideline wherein it is presumed that a vehicle is a “lemon” if the following criteria are met within 18 months of delivery to the buyer or lessee or 18,000 miles on the vehicle’s odometer, whichever comes first:
• The manufacturer or its agents have made two or more attempts to repair a warranty problem that results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven;
• The manufacturer or its agents have made four or more attempts to repair the same warranty problem; or
• The vehicle has been out of service for more than 30 days (not necessarily all at the same time) while being repaired for any number of warranty problems;

Source:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/englemn.pdf

Amazed that people spend more time making a post online instead of 5 seconds with a Google search to see if their situation would even apply.
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      10-12-2016, 05:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
In California, an unresolved problem anytime within 4 years/50k BMW warranty period can be the catalyst to trigger lemon law. But please check the laws in your state.
Suggest you reread law.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/englemn.pdf
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      10-12-2016, 05:53 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadify View Post
I'm sorry I'm just on my first replacement and I'm hopeful it fixes this issue. I honestly would listen to cfm56d7b. He understands this issue way more than I do. I'd address the issue that it probably isn't the headunit that is causing the issue in your car with your dealer.
I get it.

You get a new car at this price point and it SHOULD work. But s... happens. I know it all to well as I have sued 2 car companies (and won) funding the entire process myself...and had 1 car purchase refunded without legal intervention.

But then again, don't take it out on the local Dealer as you appear to be doing. They did not manufacture the car. They are only playing Doctor trying to diagnose. And they would live to run up the bill to BMW, lol.

Even the best Doctors miss things and people die. Just be glad it's not something that could cause your death.
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