[bri1042]

Last weekend I took a friend of mine out to test drive cars. He's been driving an awful 1996 Saturn that his mom gave him in 1998 for 16 years and, unsurprisingly, it's at the end of it's life. No one is sure how the thing made it this long and there are parts that he needs for it that don't even exist in junk yards anymore (his window is stuck partly open and can't be fixed). He's never bought a car, and he has a lot less to spend than I do. As he's likely to keep the car until the end of the world, reliability was a big factor.

We drove the Mazda 3, the Hyundai Sonata, skipped the so freakin' boring Corolla (he doesn't like the way they look anyway), and the Civic Sedan. He does not drive stick, so all the cars were autos.

I drove the Civic and the Mazda, briefly. I haven't looked down-market in a very long time, and I was a little apprehensive that I would go back to my car and find my self concerned that I had spent, essentially, nearly enough to buy two of the cars we were looking at.

On all three cars, the interior materials were very plastic and the only difference was how cheap the plastic seemed and how good of a job the company had done hiding the low-rent nature of the materials. Honda does it best, then Mazda, and very far down the list was the Hyundai. The Hyundai materials looked okay, but were worse when you poked them.

The Hyundai's interior build quality was lacking. There were uneven trim pieces in three different Sonata's that we looked at and my friend hated the seats (note: he's 6'3" and about 130 lbs soaking wet). The salesman also seemed like he could have come from some comedy about car dealerships and was pushing for information to start looking at financing before we even sat down in one. He also insisted on having me NOT in the car when my friend drove it for some reason. He was very pushy once he had my friend to himself. Very weird. He hated the car, specifically he hated the brakes, felt like it was going to tip over, and couldn't get comfortable in the seat.

The Mazda was very nearly purchased. The salesperson was great, the car handled well enough (Friend thought it handled great, I thought it wasn't the worst thing I'd ever driven). The interior was pleasant and well constructed. It was expensive compared to the other cars we looked at with similar options, commanding about a $1000 premium. We walked away from it due to not being able to get a color that Ed was happy with and some other quibbles that Ed wasn't articulating very well. I'm pretty sure he just didn't bond with it. Also, we know three folk who have owned 3's long-term and all of them have had relatively serious problems around the 5 year mark. Three cars is a terrible sample size, but I think it scared Ed off.

The Civic was the all-around winner. The interior was fantastic for the price, though I thought the seats were deeply cheap. The styling inside is odd, but at least it seems unique and high-tech. The equipment on the EX is very decent, including rear and right-side cameras. It is a VERY solid car for 20 grand. After the quality problems that were apparent with they Sonatas, we looked at a few of them and could find a single instance of poor construction quality. Road noise was okay, and Ed very nearly fit in the car (that's about as close as he ever comes in small cars). He liked driving it. It was the only car he didn't have something bad to say about after the test drive.

In the end, when he decided to buy the Civic, he didn't end up getting it. He's never had more than one credit card, and zero loans ever. He got offered financing at a decent rate but not what he was expecting (5.9%...I was mildly surprised by the rate...my credit isn't perfect and I haven't had anything over 2.9% in nearly 20 years). He backed off to try and decide what to do next.

So here's why I decided to share all this with all of you:

My base 328i X-Drive originally had a sticker price of just about twice the Civic. Is it worth the money? Are we all throwing good money away for no reason?

No, I don't think so.

I learned the following things this weekend:

1. Normal cars are really freakin' slow. I could not believe how hard you have to push even the Mazda to get it to merging speed on the on-ramps. The same effort in my 328i would result in hitting the freeway at 90 mph or more.

2. Many of us, and the magazine reviewers, noted the increased body-roll in the f30 vs. the e90. Body roll that you can feel a bit while going around a curve is nothing compared to the body roll that these cars exhibited. The roll in both the Honda and the Mazda (the two I drove) wasn't just felt by the driver, it was pulling the whole car along with it in a way that I haven't experienced in decades.

3. It was a windy weekend. I felt a slight nudge once or twice driving south on I-5 (Portland) to meet my friend at the Honda dealership. The Honda and the Mazda were both bouncing in the wind a lot. Ed thought it was fine, since it was so much better than what his Saturn did in such situations. I thought it felt unsafe.

4. The highways of Portland are deeply rutted. They practically have parallel tracks running down the lanes. Both cars were very, very squirrely in the ruts. My 328 lets me know that they are there but doesn't twitch much in them. It's not just a nose-heavy-front-wheel drive thing. My Integra GS-R and my two RSX-S's (aka the cars I drove from 1998 through 2013) were massively better on the ruts and with the wind.

5. Escape maneuvers in either car on the highway would need to involve the brakes. Neither the Mazda or the Honda had enough guts at highway speed to make accelerating out of a bad situation a safe move.

6. Neither of the two finalists are actually much smaller than the 328, but both of them FEEL like you're in a little car. It's weird.

7. Brake distances, when you look at the tests in the trades, are fine. Real-world braking was not fine. Braking on both cars felt a ton less, I don't know, confident, I guess. Stopping power didn't seem to rise in as linear of a fashion as it does on my car, or any car I've had in a really long time.

8. I would never buy any of these cars without a manual. Giving up the manual was one of the hardest decisions I ever made in regards to a car. The ZF 8-speed is good enough for me to enjoy it during happy and unhappy traffic, but the CVT in the Civic and the auto in the Mazda were pretty darn bad at dealing with the low output of the engines.

Anyway, long story short, the weekend was an interesting exercise that made me love my car more, despite the much higher price. At some point, I want to go test drive a few cars in the 30k range to compare them. If my life crashed and I had to buy a car in the 20k range, it would have been the Civic. The Mazda is a better driver's car, but not enough better for me to trust it over a Honda at the 5-year mark.

[chiefneil]

Didn't check out any domestics? I hear the Fiesta is pretty good in that price range.

Regarding the cars - I travel a bit for work and always get a cheapo compact rental car. The absolute best part of every single trip is sitting back down in my own car when I get back to the airport! Cars in that 20k price range are competent, but I just have to shake my head whenever somebody indulges in hyperbole and says something like, "The F30 steering is worse than a Corolla!" or "The F30 has more body lean than the cheapest Chevy!" or "More road noise than a Yaris!"

But something did hit me on a recent trip. My el-cheapo Corolla had a backup camera with guidelines and bluetooth music streaming. I had to pay around $600 for the backup camera and if I wanted the guidelines I needed DAP Plus for even more. And bluetooth music streaming only comes with the 3k Tech package. Every time I see these types of features in my cheap bottom of the line rental cars I'm reminded how much BMW chisels us on options.

[bri1042]

We didn't check the domestics. He has a deep dislike of Ford for some reason, and I grew up too close to Flint, MI to forgive the "big three" yet.

I agree on the option-chiseling. I still prefer Honda's way of doing things with complete packages and very few actual options available. I prefer my front and rear PDC to cameras, so I'm ok with not having them.

[paulbrenneman]

For that price range id probably have gone used. Hell you can get a great e39 m5 for that much. But then I have access to a full auto repair shop to keep it well maintained, others may not be so fearless of aging components

[300hp]

Well when I picked up my 2013 335i xdrive in 2012 we rented a Nissan Rogue to drive to Delware to pick it up. A 250 mile trip. The rogue averaged 25 mpg for that trip. I believe it weighs less than car I was picking up and has 200hp from its turbo 4.

Well the 335i average 33 mpg on the way back.

Nufff said

[OC40]

Excellent reviews. When my wife leased her last car three years ago, we tested the Mazda 3, sonata, elantra, civic, accord and jetta. I agree with much of your write up, except for the Civic. That being said, Honda was lambasted in 2010 for cheapening the Civic. I believe Honda revamped it in 2011/12 as a result of the backlash.

Fast forward three years and she opted for the Mini S and could not be happier!

[TaylorS]

Nice write-up. As an ex-Mazda-3 driver, it pretty much matches my experience going in the other direction.

Mazda's latest set of cars is pretty good IMO, I liked the 6 a lot (but forgot about it as soon as I drove the 328d). Their "zoom zoom" would be improved a lot by a double-clutch transmission, though. Shame that only a few manufacturers offer those.

[orma]

Have your buddy look at PenFed. They have really good new car rates. He can probably get 1.9%.

[bri1042]

Honda revamped the Civic in 13 and 14 a bit, too. They are quite aware that they let everyone down. As for used, that wasn't my call. At his price point, that's likely where I would have gone, too. We're both government IT long-term contractor folk, I told him to go open a USAA account and put a bunch of money in it until he's ready to go look again.

[sn3rd]

The prime lending rate in South Africa is 9% :-o

[300hp]

Originally Posted by sn3rd

The prime lending rate in South Africa is 9% :-o

Well you start off with the risk free rate, which is the US Fed Fund rate and add Country Risk. 9% sounds just about right

[falar]

When people tell me that the cars we drive are overpriced I usually counter with the same arguments.

With cars in the 20-30k range you can get reasonable comfort and economy that people that aren't "car people" are very happy with.

With BMWs its like another German company's old slogan "No Compromises". You can get comfort, economy, style, AND performance all in one package. You just have to pay more to get it. Even a sensible family car like a wagon can be fun to drive with the right options and packages from BMW.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by sn3rd

The prime lending rate in South Africa is 9% :-o

Eeek.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Important thing to note is where the cars you drove are in their life cycle.

The Mazda 3 is pretty much brand new, the Civic also new/updated in the past year or so, but the Sonata is at the end of it's cycle with the replacement shown in NY this month and hitting dealers soon. You will see the interior of the new car ups it's game a fair amount.

[nicknaz]

If I had a buy a car in that price range that was not "domestic", I would be targeting WRX, Miata, or BRZ

Tell your friend his options can get a LOT better if he learns to use 3 pedals

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

If I had a buy a car in that price range that was not "domestic", I would be targeting WRX, Miata, or BRZ

Tell your friend his options can get a LOT better if he learns to use 3 pedals

While I would not choose as he is, his choices here are likely correct for his temperament and needs. I do, however, think he needs to learn to drive stick. 'Cause everyone should.

[openwheelracing]

Comparing the bench mark sport sedan to Sonata? Even though yours is without sport suspension and XDrive......but still. Of course I know Heidi Klum is hotter than Rosie O'Donnell.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Comparing the bench mark sport sedan to Sonata? Even though yours is without sport suspension and XDrive......but still. Of course I know Heidi Klum is hotter than Rosie O'Donnell.

Thus the title of the post. My red 328 is clearly the Apple.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by paulbrenneman

For that price range id probably have gone used. ...

If you or your friend read Consumer Reports, used is definitely the way to go because you don't pay the high depreciation of driving it off the lot.

IMHO, buying a used Camry or Accord (rather than Corolla or Civic) provides a much better car at essentially the same price. And they will last practically forever.

Subaru Impreza should be checked out (if looking for new). CU rates it highest among the small cars.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Last weekend I took a friend of mine out to test drive cars. He's been driving an awful 1996 Saturn that his mom gave him in 1998 for 16 years and, unsurprisingly, it's at the end of it's life. No one is sure how the thing made it this long and there are parts that he needs for it that don't even exist in junk yards anymore (his window is stuck partly open and can't be fixed). He's never bought a car, and he has a lot less to spend than I do. As he's likely to keep the car until the end of the world, reliability was a big factor.

We drove the Mazda 3, the Hyundai Sonata, skipped the so freakin' boring Corolla (he doesn't like the way they look anyway), and the Civic Sedan. He does not drive stick, so all the cars were autos.

I drove the Civic and the Mazda, briefly. I haven't looked down-market in a very long time, and I was a little apprehensive that I would go back to my car and find my self concerned that I had spent, essentially, nearly enough to buy two of the cars we were looking at.

On all three cars, the interior materials were very plastic and the only difference was how cheap the plastic seemed and how good of a job the company had done hiding the low-rent nature of the materials. Honda does it best, then Mazda, and very far down the list was the Hyundai. The Hyundai materials looked okay, but were worse when you poked them.

The Hyundai's interior build quality was lacking. There were uneven trim pieces in three different Sonata's that we looked at and my friend hated the seats (note: he's 6'3" and about 130 lbs soaking wet). The salesman also seemed like he could have come from some comedy about car dealerships and was pushing for information to start looking at financing before we even sat down in one. He also insisted on having me NOT in the car when my friend drove it for some reason. He was very pushy once he had my friend to himself. Very weird. He hated the car, specifically he hated the brakes, felt like it was going to tip over, and couldn't get comfortable in the seat.

The Mazda was very nearly purchased. The salesperson was great, the car handled well enough (Friend thought it handled great, I thought it wasn't the worst thing I'd ever driven). The interior was pleasant and well constructed. It was expensive compared to the other cars we looked at with similar options, commanding about a $1000 premium. We walked away from it due to not being able to get a color that Ed was happy with and some other quibbles that Ed wasn't articulating very well. I'm pretty sure he just didn't bond with it. Also, we know three folk who have owned 3's long-term and all of them have had relatively serious problems around the 5 year mark. Three cars is a terrible sample size, but I think it scared Ed off.

The Civic was the all-around winner. The interior was fantastic for the price, though I thought the seats were deeply cheap. The styling inside is odd, but at least it seems unique and high-tech. The equipment on the EX is very decent, including rear and right-side cameras. It is a VERY solid car for 20 grand. After the quality problems that were apparent with they Sonatas, we looked at a few of them and could find a single instance of poor construction quality. Road noise was okay, and Ed very nearly fit in the car (that's about as close as he ever comes in small cars). He liked driving it. It was the only car he didn't have something bad to say about after the test drive.

In the end, when he decided to buy the Civic, he didn't end up getting it. He's never had more than one credit card, and zero loans ever. He got offered financing at a decent rate but not what he was expecting (5.9%...I was mildly surprised by the rate...my credit isn't perfect and I haven't had anything over 2.9% in nearly 20 years). He backed off to try and decide what to do next.

So here's why I decided to share all this with all of you:

My base 328i X-Drive originally had a sticker price of just about twice the Civic. Is it worth the money? Are we all throwing good money away for no reason?

No, I don't think so.

I learned the following things this weekend:

1. Normal cars are really freakin' slow. I could not believe how hard you have to push even the Mazda to get it to merging speed on the on-ramps. The same effort in my 328i would result in hitting the freeway at 90 mph or more.

2. Many of us, and the magazine reviewers, noted the increased body-roll in the f30 vs. the e90. Body roll that you can feel a bit while going around a curve is nothing compared to the body roll that these cars exhibited. The roll in both the Honda and the Mazda (the two I drove) wasn't just felt by the driver, it was pulling the whole car along with it in a way that I haven't experienced in decades.

3. It was a windy weekend. I felt a slight nudge once or twice driving south on I-5 (Portland) to meet my friend at the Honda dealership. The Honda and the Mazda were both bouncing in the wind a lot. Ed thought it was fine, since it was so much better than what his Saturn did in such situations. I thought it felt unsafe.

4. The highways of Portland are deeply rutted. They practically have parallel tracks running down the lanes. Both cars were very, very squirrely in the ruts. My 328 lets me know that they are there but doesn't twitch much in them. It's not just a nose-heavy-front-wheel drive thing. My Integra GS-R and my two RSX-S's (aka the cars I drove from 1998 through 2013) were massively better on the ruts and with the wind.

5. Escape maneuvers in either car on the highway would need to involve the brakes. Neither the Mazda or the Honda had enough guts at highway speed to make accelerating out of a bad situation a safe move.

6. Neither of the two finalists are actually much smaller than the 328, but both of them FEEL like you're in a little car. It's weird.

7. Brake distances, when you look at the tests in the trades, are fine. Real-world braking was not fine. Braking on both cars felt a ton less, I don't know, confident, I guess. Stopping power didn't seem to rise in as linear of a fashion as it does on my car, or any car I've had in a really long time.

8. I would never buy any of these cars without a manual. Giving up the manual was one of the hardest decisions I ever made in regards to a car. The ZF 8-speed is good enough for me to enjoy it during happy and unhappy traffic, but the CVT in the Civic and the auto in the Mazda were pretty darn bad at dealing with the low output of the engines.

Anyway, long story short, the weekend was an interesting exercise that made me love my car more, despite the much higher price. At some point, I want to go test drive a few cars in the 30k range to compare them. If my life crashed and I had to buy a car in the 20k range, it would have been the Civic. The Mazda is a better driver's car, but not enough better for me to trust it over a Honda at the 5-year mark.

I like this post!

You should suggest to your friend that he apply for financing with www.PenFed.org. Anyone can join by establishing a one time membership with a military support organization. There is a direct link on PenFed's website.

Originally Posted by chiefneil

Didn't check out any domestics? I hear the Fiesta is pretty good in that price range.

Regarding the cars - I travel a bit for work and always get a cheapo compact rental car. The absolute best part of every single trip is sitting back down in my own car when I get back to the airport! Cars in that 20k price range are competent, but I just have to shake my head whenever somebody indulges in hyperbole and says something like, "The F30 steering is worse than a Corolla!" or "The F30 has more body lean than the cheapest Chevy!" or "More road noise than a Yaris!"

But something did hit me on a recent trip. My el-cheapo Corolla had a backup camera with guidelines and bluetooth music streaming. I had to pay around $600 for the backup camera and if I wanted the guidelines I needed DAP Plus for even more. And bluetooth music streaming only comes with the 3k Tech package. Every time I see these types of features in my cheap bottom of the line rental cars I'm reminded how much BMW chisels us on options.

This is true, but as your post and the original post indicate the thing you're paying for with BMW (and Merc and Audi) is the engineering, not all these little technical features.

[ft1330]

Here is a little trick for you. Get into your F30 and look at the center console. There is an empty separation space between the radio controls and the HVAC controls. Push it with your fingers. Yep...

[invisibomb]

Does your friend's last name start with a P and end in -er?