01-08-2013, 10:48 PM | #45 |
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Trust me I am not the type that takes by feelings into these discussions. Your points above make sense re awd vs rwd. The point I was trying to make is the marketing strategy that Audi has did not work. As I pointed out given the sales numbers the S4 did not impact the 3er. If someone is getting a 328i for 54k that's an active decision against the S4.
I think the problem with the S4 is not even its relationship with VW, but the A4. In the US the A4 is just not special and most people who are not in the know will just think the S4 is the 4 banger brother. Contrast this with the 328i, now that car is special in its own right, which is why people are prepared to go all the way to S4 money for it. It wins every comparo here, dare I say it it may win against the M3, lol. The reviewers here are just mental about it. So even if the 335i is confused with the 4 banger, in most cases you are still in a good place. So sales for the 3er were much higher even with Audis change in strategy, now BMW is returning the favor with the 4 series etc so you can already tell this Audi strategy will not work going forward. Make the A4 special, that's the right strategy
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01-08-2013, 11:46 PM | #46 | |
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I am in a small market, but these cars are significant players in that market, and I see most people shopping them as equals. |
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01-09-2013, 03:30 AM | #47 |
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Their marketing works on SOME people. The "Lets not bring the RS models and make ppl who buy the the S models (at //M prices) think they have an awesome car" model. Hell 90% of enthusiasts on here get it wrong. How many threads do have I seen s4 vs m3 and then someone has to say no, s4 vs 335, rs4 vs m3 and then someone else says no, youre wrong, its S4 VS M3. Lol.
For some reason when i was shopping for cars i kept thinking to myself - dont even consider an s4 its a glorified evo. Didnt want an evo again. |
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01-09-2013, 06:59 AM | #48 | ||
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01-09-2013, 07:24 AM | #49 | |
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01-09-2013, 07:34 AM | #50 |
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[/QUOTE]
Spoken like a true BMW fan Seriously though, Im not following your perspective that is not "A4 is not special" or on par with the 3 series, that an S4 is not considered any different than the A4, or that Audi's strategy is not working? Your argument is the opposite of most in this thread so Im wondering what its based on. I am in a small market, but these cars are significant players in that market, and I see most people shopping them as equals.[/QUOTE] Yes you got my point very well. My logic is based on car sales numbers and what the reviewers say. Now bear in mind I am in the US and my views probably apply most here. Firstly the 328i is special here, there is no question about that, the reviewers say this and the public votes with their dollars en masse. The A4 sells less units than the Infiniti G37 and the reviewers rank it above the A4 too. The C class comes second to the 3er every year. So right there BMW has the better offering. My other point is there are two sets of people, those who know stuff and those who don't. Those who don't will see an S 4 and just thinks its an A4. Those who do know will never confuse S4 for an M3 competitor, I would be ashamed to say this in public. Maybe I left another set of people those who think they know but actually don't, maybe this is where the strategy works. This brings the S4 where it belongs, with the 335i where reviewers on one hand say its better but the money still votes for the 335i. I think BMW would rather have the money.
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01-09-2013, 10:29 AM | #51 |
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OK. Now I see what you were trying to say.
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01-09-2013, 10:43 AM | #53 |
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01-09-2013, 02:28 PM | #54 | |
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Agreed the 328i is currently better than its competitors, what Im saying is I wouldnt call it "special". Look at how close the Cadilliac compared to it and wait tilll the new Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes and Audi models come out. The gap is narrowing. Agreed the S4 is not an M3 competitor, what Im saying is that it is considered more "special" than a 335i by most non-enthusiast consumers because of Audi's strategy, even if the actual performance numbers are pretty equal. |
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01-09-2013, 06:18 PM | #55 |
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Are you in Germany? Nice
I think we are in agreement for the most part. I still think the 328i is special though, can you imagine driving a car that gets tons of accolades almost every month and wins comparo after comparo after comparo. That has to make the 328i feel special right. That's BMWs strategy, start with an incredible base car. The numbers prove this works. I was just trying to bring a different perspective to this thread, hopefully I did not offend anyone
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01-10-2013, 03:46 AM | #56 | ||
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01-10-2013, 08:27 PM | #57 |
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First off, from everything I've read, it appears that Audi is much more focused on emerging markets etc. It is well known that profit margins for vehicles in the USA are much lower driven by domestic OEM pricing. Just look at what someone pays for a 3 series in Asia. I was just in S. Korea and I noticed an abundance of German luxury cars, with BMW and Audi more or less equal in number. When I spoke to an Audi CA, he said that allocations are very hard to come by for NA dealers because they are all going oversees. See this article.
IMO, Audi's marketing is simpler and more straight forward, in the sense that you don't need to know the details to recognize what "category" a car is. The A4 << S4 < RS4 is a simple comparison while for BMW it varies year to year etc. Of course, a 2005 S4 has a V8 compared to the 2013 supercharged V6, but to most this is negligible. IME, no one outside of internet forums really knows of or cares about the package difference of an M-Sport 3 series or A4 S line...it's the same as if someone said they had a Zl1 Camaro...do you know what that means? The S4 can only be compared with the M-Sport 335i xdrive...and base prices aside, they are very similarly priced when optioned well. BMW has an optioning ability to add almost 14K to a base price, while the Audi's have less room but start higher. Performance wise, IME they are not in the same boat when comparing AWD models. I think the powertrain on the S4 is just much more equipped to put the power down. It drives harder and is faster from my experience. I cross shopped both a lot, even ordered a 3er, but ultimately went S4 because I wanted something that did better in the snow (live in midwest), liked the Audi interior, and most importantly liked the more conservative exterior - driving an EBII Msport to work at a US OEM would probably look bad when 90% of the cars on the lot are domestic.
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01-11-2013, 12:07 AM | #58 |
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335xi and S4 in my garage
Not sure if I posted in the correct thread, I could not start a new thread as I only have 2 posts. Sorry if this is the wrong area.
For me the correct comparison is 335xi vs s4 I own a 2013 335xi M sport and a 2013 S4. Both cars were within $1500 dollars of the other, I consider price differential to be insignificant for my own analysis. The following is my personal opinion. 1) The bmw exterior styling is way sportier and not like a loaf of bread as my wife explains, but still very nice in an executive formal way, cool looking, whereas the 335 is all about sport. 2) Estoril Blue is a very special colour, Audi had no special colour. 3) Interior of both are equal in terms of quality, fit and finish, with a slight edge to bmw. The smooth leather of the S4 feels and looks cheap when compared to the bmw. The texture of the bmw leather to me feels and looks better and more substantial. The dash of the S4 again is very nice but it looks like it could be in any nice and proper sedan that my dad would drive, with the exception of the carbon look trim. The bmw is of equal quality in fit and finish, but is again much more dynamic and sporty, with the lines of the dash and hexigon etched trim. The seats in the bmw do a better job to hold you from shifting side to side with adjustable sidle bolsters that the S4 does not have. There is also more adjustability in the seats overall. The overall impression is that the bmw fits you like a glove, whereas in the s4, it is like floating on top of a leather love seat. Futhermore, the head rests are adjustable up and down, and tilt forward and back, while the s4's does not. 4)Both cars are automatic. The Audi and 335 are equal in acceleration as far as I can tell. The transmissions in both are on par with each other with audi having a slightly more aggressive tranmission especially when in sport mode as it blips the throttle when down shifting. The sound of the engine and exhaust is again more sporty and agressive, whereas the bmw's sound is more reserved and less boy racer. 5) In the electronics such as navigation, stereo, dvd, iphone integration department, both are on par, with navigation better in bmw, iphone integration better in bmw, the dvd playback better in audi because it will play when you are in drive mode but stopped, whereas in the bmw, you have to be in park for it to play the movie. Overall, I would say that the bmw has more technology. 6)There is snow here for 6 months of the year and there so far as I can tell is no advantage of one over the other. I have had the Audi for longer and when I got the bmw wanted to see if it was as good and I would say definitely. Both systems are very good. Last edited by heli_ca; 01-11-2013 at 12:16 AM.. |
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01-11-2013, 07:34 AM | #59 | |
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My 335i looks just like yours from the outside, I also have the 19s. I have all options except for auto cruise, Hk, rear shades and the driver assist plus option Your views are very close to mine though, sorry for the rant above
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01-11-2013, 07:56 AM | #60 |
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Did you not see Volcano Red or Sprint Blue? Both are amazing colors. I was going to buy a Volcano Red S4 but the lease worked out $150 more than my S4. I can afford that but I did not like the idea of paying more for a car that was equal to the BMW. I love my 335 and I am very happy with choice.
Last edited by chrisv_335EBII; 01-11-2013 at 09:32 AM.. |
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01-11-2013, 09:23 AM | #61 |
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All new Audi models released in 2008 or later were built only with AWD in mind. Only the A3 and the TT suffer the FWD-based Haldex design. Yes, many Audi models are offered with FWD in many countries, but their designs are not forward-biased. This began officially with the B8 A4.
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01-11-2013, 09:34 AM | #62 | |
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Both the BMW and Audi AWD systems right now is RWD bias (40:60) split. |
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01-11-2013, 09:47 AM | #63 | ||
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01-11-2013, 10:14 AM | #64 | |
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http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test |
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01-11-2013, 10:18 AM | #65 | |
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01-11-2013, 10:31 AM | #66 | |
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Adding to this. I would also add that the way Audi markets themselves here in U.S they are not trying to be #1. You can tell with the way they lease their car (about 70% of all luxury cars are sold). Payments for somewhat compareable cars will have the Audi A4 $100+ more than a similar 328i. They're not trying to win with the number game and they certainly don't have the volume in the U.S like BMW, so they'll try to make more per car for offering more. IMO, Audi is A lot like a Mac OS and BMW is like top of the line Windows Computer as far as marketing is concerned. Outside of the F30/F32, BMW was never really known for their interior. But their listening I'm sure. Competition is good for consumers and BMW knows they have to protect their reputation. F30/F32 interiors have made huge jumps compared to previous gen MY. Lastly, I love/hate how BMW and Audi doesn't come out with the same car at the same time. The Audi S5 (4.2) came out with 350+ HP over the BMW 333HP. Then came new M3, and followed by the RS5 (Europe)...With the new M3 coming up for '14/15, we can only guess what Audi has positioned for their next RS5? Possibly using the 4.0 twin turbo? Who knows, but its exciting to see the constant battles. On forums, it seems like there are more bashing from BMW owners against Audi vs the other way around. I don't know what it is. If you like/love your car, it should speak for itself. People usually talk smack, to make up for things they lack. The OP (Economist) did a great job of touching on the marketing part and staying in the middle without bias. Great thread again. |
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