[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by southbynorth

So how does the HUD fit your defination of a useful aid, rather then an expensive and unnecesary toy?

Surely it fits in exactly with the top camera's etc that you mention - sure its useful, but it isnt neccesary!

Personally, I think everyone has their unique requirements, for their own reasons - for example I wouldnt buy a car without aircon, pref climate, but my missus doesnt give a hoot about air con or climate - the options are rarely their to improve the car, but to improve your personal enjoyment and comfort of the car imo.

And there you have it folks..........somebody gets it!

As for HUD, I wouldn't have normally ordered it (..I've done without it in my previous BMW purchases), but now that I have it I have come to appreciate having so much information available to me without having to look away. I have speed, audio/entertainment info, nav guidance, cruise control parameters, gas warnings/remaining miles, etc. It's actually quite nifty.

[Rasengan]

i used to handwrite notes and letters before the word processor and the PC came out...i can't imagine going back to handwriting everything after using backspace, spell-check, copy and paste, undo, bold, etc. doesn't mean i'm a crappy handwriter...i just choose to use what tools are given to me to make my life easier...

with respect to the topic, it's not like you're taking every street corner at 90mph while driving to the grocery store...leave that for the tracks...and once you get to the tracks you can turn all that off anyway

[328AL]

Originally Posted by 3magine

I don't like the back up camera myself. I find that without it, when backing up I'm checking my left, my right, and behind me and the camera only adds another area to check. Now it's left, right, behind, and camera. Can't use the camera alone, since anyone can fly out of the side at any given time. I don't know. To me it's just a gimmick, and a distracting factor when backing up.

How long have you had it? Do you drive another car without it?

[johndeere]

Originally Posted by 328AL

How long have you had it? Do you drive another car without it?

Have had it for 2 months. Don't drive anything else.

[328AL]

Originally Posted by BMWFanatic2008

Driver Assistance Package would be the last option I would get (for free of course, wouldn't pay a penny for it).

People who have it probably got their cars from the lot and those usually have a bunch of useless options ordered by the dealer. Very few custom order it.

I'm guessing you don't have it nor have not had any significant experience with it. However, you do have a choice and can express your opinion!

Do you have a list of options that other people order? Please share with us

The same was said 15-20 years ago about power windows, power steering, then about Navi and other things. Many many years ago when cars just were introduced people questioned how are they better than horses (true story!)

In 10-15 years people would not want cars without it, so you can be a pioneer now and enjoy it, or join the club later on.

[328AL]

Originally Posted by 3magine

Have had it for 2 months. Don't drive anything else.

You need to give it a little more time, maybe 6 months, you'd hate cars that don't have it.

[DesertSmokeBBQ]

Originally Posted by jdong

After owning these options for 3 years on 2 cars, I totally disagree. I consider myself a good driver, who has logged 100,000+ miles on my few years of driving, and a perfectly spotless driving record.

However, I really challenge anyone to pull out of a parking spot with 3 inches of slack space to maneuver 3 or 4 times to get out. Yes, a good driver should be able to resolve their car's boundaries within 6 inches to 1 foot, but what if you have less space than that to work with?

The cameras in a well equipped 3 series allows you to have 1-2 inch resolution on objects you can collide with. I can pull my car out of spots successfully where bystanders and the valets are screaming at me to stop. That's something I don't have confidence to do in a regular car, and I'm the kind of person who would spend a weekend in a parking lot with 2 trash cans training myself on parking my car.


Also, with regards to blind spot assist, collision assist, and adaptive cruise, you have to remember that some of us use our cars to commute to and from work. Not race it at a track with other real men (tm). Sometimes we don't get enough sleep the night before. Or something awful that happens at work has our minds distracted. Or a text comes in about a family member in the hospital or a text comes in that says "Hey can I put Arco 87 octane in your car? kthxbai". There's been plenty of times where I've been preoccupied with a near accident resulting from some moron cutting me off as I'm merging on an onramp that I didn't have time to look at speed limit signs. Is it 55 or 65? Are you sure? You wanna bet that on a $500 speeding ticket and a 30% insurance hike?

Real life is distracting, and even the best of us get tempted into taking our eyes off the road. Anything that computers can do to assist, I appreciate.

If anything, I want more driver assistance features in my next car. Not less. I don't want any of them to get in the way of my ability to drive my own car, but I think the execution of these features in my BMW is pretty well balanced.

I agree that these features are not for everyone. In fact some of them cost a ton of money and are only really appropriate for those who have a lot of money to blow. I hope to one day be able to own a car like that (like the 2014 S class that can help you center your car in your lane and even preemptively absorb speed bumps using a Kinect like camera). But as someone who has drank some of the Kool Aid, trying to drive the exact same sized loaner F30 without the sensors and cameras has been a humbling experience in appreciating how confident I feel in my car.

My solution to less than 6in of slack space in a parking lot is to FIND ANOTHER SPOT that offers more space! Why risk the idiot in front of or behind who ISN'T such a parallel parking whiz playing bumper cars with your ride??? I'd bet you'd complain all over the forum if someone scuffed or dented your bumpers in such a tight spot...

[DesertSmokeBBQ]

Originally Posted by BMWFanatic2008

Driver Assistance Package would be the last option I would get (for free of course, wouldn't pay a penny for it).

People who have it probably got their cars from the lot and those usually have a bunch of useless options ordered by the dealer. Very few custom order it.

And you have ACTUAL data on this? I'd wager this is more along the lines of your "opinion" since in my 13yrs ordering cars for dealerships (Mercedes/BMW/Lexus etc), most of the "high ticket" options like that were only ordered for individuals rather than stock except for the 1 or 2 here and there to be able to demonstrate to people and as demos.

[DesertSmokeBBQ]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

And there you have it folks..........somebody gets it!

As for HUD, I wouldn't have normally ordered it (..I've done without it in my previous BMW purchases), but now that I have it I have come to appreciate having so much information available to me without having to look away. I have speed, audio/entertainment info, nav guidance, cruise control parameters, gas warnings/remaining miles, etc. It's actually quite nifty.

^^^^^THIS!!!!

[southbynorth]

I'm coming over all shy, never been quoted twice in a forum before

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by DesertSmokeBBQ

My solution to less than 6in of slack space in a parking lot is to FIND ANOTHER SPOT that offers more space! Why risk the idiot in front of or behind who ISN'T such a parallel parking whiz playing bumper cars with your ride??? I'd bet you'd complain all over the forum if someone scuffed or dented your bumpers in such a tight spot...

To his defense....


....finding another spot in Los Angeles, for example, would be quite difficult to do.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by southbynorth

I'm coming over all shy, never been quoted twice in a forum before

You are now Bimmerpost indoctrinated. LOL!

[jdong]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

To his defense....


....finding another spot in Los Angeles, for example, would be quite difficult to do.

Yeah, same here, up in the SF Bay area. If you want to find a nice Midwestern parking spot that can fit a Yukon, you might as well just keep your car in your garage forever.

Back when I lived in Michigan I might be agreeing with you guys that you've gotta be a moron if you need 8 sensors and 3 cameras to park your car, but out here it's really handy.


P.S. I do have dents and dings on my car. I learned 6 months after moving out here that it's a fact of life, and I should either be happy with it or reduce my comprehensive deductible to $200

[vern]

Originally Posted by jdong

After owning these options for 3 years on 2 cars, I totally disagree. I consider myself a good driver, who has logged 100,000+ miles on my few years of driving, and a perfectly spotless driving record.

However, I really challenge anyone to pull out of a parking spot with 3 inches of slack space to maneuver 3 or 4 times to get out. Yes, a good driver should be able to resolve their car's boundaries within 6 inches to 1 foot, but what if you have less space than that to work with?

The cameras in a well equipped 3 series allows you to have 1-2 inch resolution on objects you can collide with. I can pull my car out of spots successfully where bystanders and the valets are screaming at me to stop. That's something I don't have confidence to do in a regular car, and I'm the kind of person who would spend a weekend in a parking lot with 2 trash cans training myself on parking my car.


Also, with regards to blind spot assist, collision assist, and adaptive cruise, you have to remember that some of us use our cars to commute to and from work. Not race it at a track with other real men (tm). Sometimes we don't get enough sleep the night before. Or something awful that happens at work has our minds distracted. Or a text comes in about a family member in the hospital or a text comes in that says "Hey can I put Arco 87 octane in your car? kthxbai". There's been plenty of times where I've been preoccupied with a near accident resulting from some moron cutting me off as I'm merging on an onramp that I didn't have time to look at speed limit signs. Is it 55 or 65? Are you sure? You wanna bet that on a $500 speeding ticket and a 30% insurance hike?

Real life is distracting, and even the best of us get tempted into taking our eyes off the road. Anything that computers can do to assist, I appreciate.

If anything, I want more driver assistance features in my next car. Not less. I don't want any of them to get in the way of my ability to drive my own car, but I think the execution of these features in my BMW is pretty well balanced.

I agree that these features are not for everyone. In fact some of them cost a ton of money and are only really appropriate for those who have a lot of money to blow. I hope to one day be able to own a car like that (like the 2014 S class that can help you center your car in your lane and even preemptively absorb speed bumps using a Kinect like camera). But as someone who has drank some of the Kool Aid, trying to drive the exact same sized loaner F30 without the sensors and cameras has been a humbling experience in appreciating how confident I feel in my car.

Very very well put. You really need all the help you can get with all the crazies on the road.
cheers
vern

[DesertSmokeBBQ]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

To his defense....


....finding another spot in Los Angeles, for example, would be quite difficult to do.

"Inconvenient" yes, "difficult," no. I live in Downtown San Diego, grew up in LA and I assure you, parking in the beach cities or Downtown 'Dago is challenging. I often end up walking FAR further than I would like simply due to passing on spaces I COULD wedge my car into but choose not to....

[jdong]

I can tell you that working at a tech company that has doubled in size since last year, if you want to park somewhere like what you're describing, you're walking 30 minutes to and from your car.

Am I going to add an hour of walking to my day, change my job, or put parking sensors on my car? *shrug*

[pkimM3r]

if you have blind spots, you are using your side view mirrors completely wrong. so throw that out the window.

and i would rather look out the window than look at a screen LOL.

You don't need all that camera crap if you have the self parallel parking button. That was nice to have.

[Steve33]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Lets start with ZDA for $950. The Park Distance Control sensors are hideous, yet I hear nary a complaint… All while I hear cries and moans about reflectors. Rear-view camera is arguably necessary on an SUV or van, but we are talking about a compact sedan! You can handle it… Right?

I think you might be missing the point here. I have a tiny garage to fit in. I have about 1 foot leeway between the front and the back of the car. I need all the space I can get

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Active Blind Spot Detection is a nice feature for highly congested areas like NYC. Active Driving Assistant… If I had this feature in my car it would be off 100% of the time if possible. I don’t want or need the car to warn (bug) me about lane departure… And an “Attention Assistant?” Nuts! Side and Top-view cameras are just a toy IMO.

The lane departure is annoying as shit, especially since it constantly emits K Band and my radar always is going nuts. The extra 4 cameras are worth every penny. Again, tiny garage, I need to get as close to the wall as I can and the top cams help with the front of the car

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by DesertSmokeBBQ

"Inconvenient" yes, "difficult," no. I live in Downtown San Diego, grew up in LA and I assure you, parking in the beach cities or Downtown 'Dago is challenging. I often end up walking FAR further than I would like simply due to passing on spaces I COULD wedge my car into but choose not to....

Walking is an option if you have the time to do it. Walking is an option if you don't have a date in heels. Walking is an option if you don't have a lot of stuff to carry. Walking is an option if you're not running late. Walking is an option if.......


.....I think you see my point. It's not always an option, and sometimes you have to deal with the cards....errr, parking spaces......that you've been dealt.

Originally Posted by pkim1079

if you have blind spots, you are using your side view mirrors completely wrong. so throw that out the window.

and i would rather look out the window than look at a screen LOL.

You don't need all that camera crap if you have the self parallel parking button. That was nice to have.

Cameras are an aid, not a means to an end.

[jdong]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

if you have blind spots, you are using your side view mirrors completely wrong. so throw that out the window.

and i would rather look out the window than look at a screen LOL.

You don't need all that camera crap if you have the self parallel parking button. That was nice to have.

(1) As I said before, it's not about whether or not you can see a car in your mirror, it's about whether or not you remembered to check (whether it's getting distracted, careless, needing to make a split second decision between swerving or braking, etc). If you are perfectly diligent in traffic all the time in your daily driver, congratulations.

(2) Actually, the self parallel parking algorithms tend to solve the problems in ways that will freak you out in tight spots. Since you are legally responsible for anything crazy your car does, you almost certainly want to have a bunch of camera views and proximity sensors to keep an eye on your car instead of blindly trusting that it's not gonna clip anything.

[RPM90]

[QUOTE=g
My overall point is; the popularity of what I consider “nanny” options doesn’t sync with all the enthusiast rhetoric proliferating the forum. Worse yet is how often I see people calling themselves enthusiasts prioritizing these ‘luxury’ options over say, Dynamic Handling Package, Technology Package (HUD), Active Cruise Control, leather, or Harman Kardon audio.

IMO… Unless you share the car with someone who is a poor driver (or are one yourself), ZDA/ZDB should be at the bottom of the option list, yet it seems like everybody orders them first. [/QUOTE]

You've discovered the dirty little secret of auto "enthusiasts sites", and it's not different on this one, and maybe one of the worst.

There are a good number of us on here who are still driving/auto enthusiasts, who want to discuss the driving, dynamics, engine, and other items associated with what makes a BMW the "ultimate driving machine".

But, we are out numbered, and BMW has gone to the dark side, by catering to those who complained that previous generation 3 series were, too firm, and the steering is "too heavy, I find it difficult to park with my skinny arms."
Then there was, "But why can't I have a big screen to give me details about my iPhone musics lists, and album picts, and my uber extensive music collection."

Of course don't forget, "Wah! How come there isn't enough room in the back seat so I can bring my 3 kids and their grandmother? I need someone to watch them while I fiddle with my texts...wait...Jenny just sent me a funny pict of her cat! It's hilarious! How do I send a pict to everyone with my iDrive!? Why doesn't this car have the proper technology for my life!!!?
If that semi doesn't stop blaring his horn behind me, I 'm going to scream.
Hey buddy! This is MY road!"

So, BMW looked at the potential buyer statistics and decided that the way to sell the "Ultimate driving machine" to more buyers is to tone down the "driving" part. Perhaps more people will be happier calling BMW,
"The Ultimate Techno-mobile".
They softened the who car, made it bigger, and added a plethora of techno cheez-whiz, and priced them accordingly in BMW style.

I'm being heavily sarcastic or course, but some of what I wrote I'm serious about. There is nothing wrong with offering people techno options, luxury options, or sportier driving dynamics options.
We all have to decide what will add value for us and what won't.

I'm like you and find I have no use for a lot of the tech options offered.
My interest, wants, and needs are related to the driving aspects of a BMW, in particular the 1/2 and 3 series.
So my 335i Msport doesn't even have NAV let alone all those other things.

I will say that if you've driven a vehicle with a back up camera, it is quite nice, as it adds "eyes" where we want to see the most when backing up.
It really does make parking and backing out a more relaxed action.
But I won't pay what BMW charges for it. I've done just fine without a backup camera for decades.

My issue with the F30 is that BMW softened the whole line of 3 series, not just the base and luxury line, but also the sport/Msport lines.
The sport/Msport use the same steering system, which feels too light and feels less responsive than the hydraulic system in the previous generations of 3. The sport suspension is also softer and handling is less direct and allows more body roll.

The brakes are also the same on all lines. The only difference is that the 335i has larger rotors and 4 piston front calipers and 2 piston rears.
The 328i has 2 piston fronts and 1 piston rears, and small rotors.
But the sport/Msport don't get better brakes over their base or luxury counter parts.

It's great that BMW designed the softer and larger 3 series so that it can appeal to a larger buying public, they are in the business to sell cars after all.
But they didn't have to soften the sport/Msport variants one bit.
They should have actually designed the sport/Msport to be even sharper and crisper than the previous generations for the BMW enthusiast drivers who value BMW for the driving excellence they design into their cars.

The "make it softer and more luxurious" crowd won, and we driving enthusiasts lost. There are even 3 series sport and Msport owners on here who actually PREFER to drive in "Eco Pro" mode!?!?!
Yes, the PREFER it. Why? To "save money by getting better MPG".
That should tell you something about how 'enthusiastic' that owner is about driving, and what they value more in their car.
BMW should have left "eco pro" mode OUT of the sport and Msport models, forcing potential owners who want it to get a non sport variant, cause that's where that mode belongs.

Ah, enough already from me.
I always write too much.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by RPM90

You've discovered the dirty little secret of auto "enthusiasts sites", and it's not different on this one, and maybe one of the worst.

There are a good number of us on here who are still driving/auto enthusiasts, who want to discuss the driving, dynamics, engine, and other items associated with what makes a BMW the "ultimate driving machine".

But, we are out numbered, and BMW has gone to the dark side, by catering to those who complained that previous generation 3 series were, too firm, and the steering is "too heavy, I find it difficult to park with my skinny arms."
Then there was, "But why can't I have a big screen to give me details about my iPhone musics lists, and album picts, and my uber extensive music collection."

Of course don't forget, "Wah! How come there isn't enough room in the back seat so I can bring my 3 kids and their grandmother? I need someone to watch them while I fiddle with my texts...wait...Jenny just sent me a funny pict of her cat! It's hilarious! How do I send a pict to everyone with my iDrive!? Why doesn't this car have the proper technology for my life!!!?
If that semi doesn't stop blaring his horn behind me, I 'm going to scream.
Hey buddy! This is MY road!"

So, BMW looked at the potential buyer statistics and decided that the way to sell the "Ultimate driving machine" to more buyers is to tone down the "driving" part. Perhaps more people will be happier calling BMW,
"The Ultimate Techno-mobile".
They softened the who car, made it bigger, and added a plethora of techno cheez-whiz, and priced them accordingly in BMW style.

I'm being heavily sarcastic or course, but some of what I wrote I'm serious about. There is nothing wrong with offering people techno options, luxury options, or sportier driving dynamics options.
We all have to decide what will add value for us and what won't.

I'm like you and find I have no use for a lot of the tech options offered.
My interest, wants, and needs are related to the driving aspects of a BMW, in particular the 1/2 and 3 series.
So my 335i Msport doesn't even have NAV let alone all those other things.

I will say that if you've driven a vehicle with a back up camera, it is quite nice, as it adds "eyes" where we want to see the most when backing up.
It really does make parking and backing out a more relaxed action.
But I won't pay what BMW charges for it. I've done just fine without a backup camera for decades.

My issue with the F30 is that BMW softened the whole line of 3 series, not just the base and luxury line, but also the sport/Msport lines.
The sport/Msport use the same steering system, which feels too light and feels less responsive than the hydraulic system in the previous generations of 3. The sport suspension is also softer and handling is less direct and allows more body roll.

The brakes are also the same on all lines. The only difference is that the 335i has larger rotors and 4 piston front calipers and 2 piston rears.
The 328i has 2 piston fronts and 1 piston rears, and small rotors.
But the sport/Msport don't get better brakes over their base or luxury counter parts.

It's great that BMW designed the softer and larger 3 series so that it can appeal to a larger buying public, they are in the business to sell cars after all.
But they didn't have to soften the sport/Msport variants one bit.
They should have actually designed the sport/Msport to be even sharper and crisper than the previous generations for the BMW enthusiast drivers who value BMW for the driving excellence they design into their cars.

The "make it softer and more luxurious" crowd won, and we driving enthusiasts lost. There are even 3 series sport and Msport owners on here who actually PREFER to drive in "Eco Pro" mode!?!?!
Yes, the PREFER it. Why? To "save money by getting better MPG".
That should tell you something about how 'enthusiastic' that owner is about driving, and what they value more in their car.
BMW should have left "eco pro" mode OUT of the sport and Msport models, forcing potential owners who want it to get a non sport variant, cause that's where that mode belongs.

Ah, enough already from me.
I always write too much.

And even after that entirely lengthy diatribe, you still miss the point about what is, for all intents and purposes, a daily driven vehicle for 99% of the people who own these cars. If you prefer to buy a car entirely for the small percentage of time that you spend "driving enthusiastically", that's awesome. For some of us enthusiasts (...yes, I'm a self-proclaimed enthusiast....I just choose to wrangle bikes around a track these days rather than my daily driven BMW, and I'm faster on two wheels than most "enthusiasts" are in their cars), some creature comforts are necessary for the car that spends the large majority of its time in stop and go traffic or pillaging from stoplight to stoplight.