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      06-07-2012, 12:55 AM   #1
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Will the E92 (3-coupe) be discontinued after the F32 (4 series coupe) comes in 2013

Dear All,
From the news. We all know F32 will be marketed as 4-series. And it seems will be a viable alternative of 6-series in late 2013. My question is, since it will be 4-series instead of 3, will the F32 replace the E92 and make E92 discontinued; or the F32 will co-exist with E92?

If it has been announced somewhere, I apologize first.
Thank you for any information.
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      06-07-2012, 12:58 AM   #2
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The 4 series would replace the 3 series coupe and convertible. That is assuming that the 4 series rumors are true though.
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      06-07-2012, 01:41 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primase View Post
Dear All,
From the news. We all know F32 will be marketed as 4-series. And it seems will be a viable alternative of 6-series in late 2013. My question is, since it will be 4-series instead of 3, will the F32 replace the E92 and make E92 discontinued; or the F32 will co-exist with E92?

If it has been announced somewhere, I apologize first.
Thank you for any information.
Yes, the F32 will replace the E92, just like the F30 replaced the E90, and the F33 will replace the E93. They will both be called 4 Series (Coupe and Convertible, or Cabriolet as known in Europe). The F31 will replace the E91 and will be continue to be called a 3 Series (Sport Wagon or Touring as it's called in Europe).
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      06-08-2012, 12:04 AM   #4
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It sounds like they're pretty set on calling it the 4-series this go around, but these 2- and 4-series rumors have been around for, what, a decade or more?

and obviously the e92 will go away.
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      06-11-2012, 01:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by rconti View Post
It sounds like they're pretty set on calling it the 4-series this go around, but these 2- and 4-series rumors have been around for, what, a decade or more?

and obviously the e92 will go away.
Do you think pre-owned 335 will has a significant price drop after E92 is discontinued? In other words, are this two years bad to buy an 335?
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      06-11-2012, 04:07 AM   #6
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Do you think pre-owned 335 will has a significant price drop after E92 is discontinued? In other words, are this two years bad to buy an 335?
That depends on whether you intend to buy it and keep it for a long time, or whether you want to buy it and then sell it in just a few years. If you currently own a car that's in good working order, keep it and lease a 335 for two or three years if you just have to have a 335 coupe now. Then when the new 335 couple comes out, you can compare them and buy the one you like best.

The e92 model of the 335 is unlikely to drop any more in price just because the new F3x (?) coupe appears. Indeed, there's a a fair chance, particularly if the new coupe follows the new sedan in being less a driver's car than the e9x ones are, that the e92 will hold a bit more of its value. The e92 cars on the road today will sell for less in two years than they will today.

That said, if you can find a CPO 2010 or 2011 e92, with fewer than 9,000 miles/year on it, that you like and can afford to purchase, buy it. (Note, I'm saying buy, not lease.) The fewer the miles on it, the better, and the later it was first titled in any given year, the better. And yes, those 2010 and 2011 cars will be less expensive two years from now, but at that point, you'll be seeking 2012 or 2013 e92s not 2010 and 2011s.

If you are at the very early point in the new coupe's life cycle, the dealer will have both new e92s and new F3xs, and of course you can compare the two and buy the one that suits you most. You best deal at that point, however, will still be a one or two year old, used e92 with below normal mileage on it as described above.

Note: I said one OR two year old cars because some dealers don't like to give the CPO appellation to cars 1 or fewer years old. The main reason I can fathom for that is that doing so ticks of new car buyers. Consider that you buy a 6 month old CPO car. That gives you 6 years of warrantied driving. New car buyers can get that as well, but only if they buy the extended warranty ($2000+), which used car buyers get automatically by virtue of the CPO status on the car. And the dealer can't really jack up the price of the car more because on a car that new, you'd end up having to pay essentially a new car price, and obviously you wouldn't do that; you'd just buy a new car instead. Then their used car inventory sits longer, costing them more money.

Dealers don't want to do this because, for the most part, there's more profit in a used car than in a new car. There's more profit in used cars for two reasons:
  • because it's pretty much impossible for a typical consumer to know what the dealer's cost is on a used car. Consumers generally cannot get into wholesale car auctions, and there is quite a lot of variation in the pricing cited in the publications that cite the value -- wholesale or retail -- of used cars., and
  • out of all the options one can buy on a new car, very few of them have any impact at all on the wholesale value of a car. At wholesale, the things that matter most are automatic transmissions, air conditioning, suspensions, overall quality/integrity of the vehicle (accident free, dig/dent free, structural integrity, mileage, age) and several key options -- essentially most of (but not all) the things you see offered as stand alone options on BMW's website have value. The things you have to buy in a package (and particularly those you cannot get without the package) have no value to speak of at all. Also, the things you see on the accessories page have no value.

    On the wholesale market, cars are seen as outstanding, good, fair, and poor, based on those things I noted above. Beyond that, wholesale buyers and sellers don't care much. For example, not one thing in the M Sport Package is of any value on the wholesale car market, not even the wheels (which are the most expensive thing in the M Sport package), since every car has wheels -- they are either in good condition and contribute thus to an outstanding or good quality assessment of the car, or they aren't -- thus making wheels, assuming the car has some, irrelevant. A car with no wheels is a different story since a car with no wheels is a relatively space-efficient collection of connected, used, un-refurbished/un-reconditioned parts, not a car. Body shops, salvage outfits, and parts manufacturers have uses for that stuff; car dealers don't. The same is essentially true of everything BMW offer as a package. From a value standpoint, better to go with stand-alone options. In every package, one item in there has some value and everything else is there so BMW can put a high price on it and make money.

    So the next time you hear a person who leases their car complain about depreciation, ask them if they have any packages on their car. That's where the depreciation is coming from because the stuff in the package does nothing to boost the wholesale value of the car in the first place. If you just want those things on your car, better to buy your car, maintain it well, and keep it for a long time (10-12 years) than to lease it.
Good luck.

Good values among the packages:
Cold Weather Package -- It's worth it if you want everything in it besides the washers. If you don't want all three of those non-washer elements, buy them as stand alone options.
Technology Package -- For essentially the same price as what nav alone cost, you also get HUD. Nav is something that adds value on the wholesale arena.
Premium Sound Package -- Satellite radio for $100 for a year isn't too bad ($10 more than Sirius' basic lineup if bought outside the dealership) and far cheaper than buying Sirius as a stand alone option. Plus the upgraded sound system also adds value in the eyes of wholesalers.

Packages not worth the ink it takes to print their names:
Premium Package - You do the math. When one could buy comfort access as a stand alone option, BMW priced it at 500. Bottom line: this packages calls upon you to fork over about $250 for a garage door opener and a mirror that dims itself, and one feature you can add yourself via coding (i.e., essentially for free). You can also use coding to obtain several (but admittedly not all) of the comfort access features. As goes the auto dimming mirrors, tinting your windows at 30% will yield the same results and I find 30% tint + auto dimming (my daughter's car) to be too dim to see any details on the car behind you (I like to be able to tell if the car behind me is a cop, although if lights suddenly appeared from nowhere and are rapidly catching up to me or effectively tailgating me, it probably is a cop because normal people don't generally do either of those things -- drive fast enough catch up to me or tailgate me).
M Sport Package - It makes the car look nice, no argument there, but there isn't one thing in this package that'll increase its value as goes the car's future price on the wholesale market. Even the wheels in this package, are of no value at wholesale. The reason for this is that every car has wheels and those wheels either improve (by not being cracked, having little if any curb rash, etc.) the overall assessment of the car's condition and therefore value -- outstanding, good, fair, poor or scrap -- or they don't. The value of the wheels begins and ends at are they simple steel wheels or some nicer type of wheels, but all "nicer types of wheels" are equal at wholesale. The reason for this is that a used car with no wheels isn't a car, it's a relatively space-efficient configuration of connected, un-refurbished, used parts.
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      06-11-2012, 11:59 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
That depends on whether you intend to buy it and keep it for a long time, or whether you want to buy it and then sell it in just a few years. If you currently own a car that's in good working order, keep it and lease a 335 for two or three years if you just have to have a 335 coupe now. Then when the new 335 couple comes out, you can compare them and buy the one you like best.

The e92 model of the 335 is unlikely to drop any more in price just because the new F3x (?) coupe appears. Indeed, there's a a fair chance, particularly if the new coupe follows the new sedan in being less a driver's car than the e9x ones are, that the e92 will hold a bit more of its value. The e92 cars on the road today will sell for less in two years than they will today.

That said, if you can find a CPO 2010 or 2011 e92, with fewer than 9,000 miles/year on it, that you like and can afford to purchase, buy it. (Note, I'm saying buy, not lease.) The fewer the miles on it, the better, and the later it was first titled in any given year, the better. And yes, those 2010 and 2011 cars will be less expensive two years from now, but at that point, you'll be seeking 2012 or 2013 e92s not 2010 and 2011s.

If you are at the very early point in the new coupe's life cycle, the dealer will have both new e92s and new F3xs, and of course you can compare the two and buy the one that suits you most. You best deal at that point, however, will still be a one or two year old, used e92 with below normal mileage on it as described above.

Note: I said one OR two year old cars because some dealers don't like to give the CPO appellation to cars 1 or fewer years old. The main reason I can fathom for that is that doing so ticks of new car buyers. Consider that you buy a 6 month old CPO car. That gives you 6 years of warrantied driving. New car buyers can get that as well, but only if they buy the extended warranty ($2000+), which used car buyers get automatically by virtue of the CPO status on the car. And the dealer can't really jack up the price of the car more because on a car that new, you'd end up having to pay essentially a new car price, and obviously you wouldn't do that; you'd just buy a new car instead. Then their used car inventory sits longer, costing them more money.

Dealers don't want to do this because, for the most part, there's more profit in a used car than in a new car. There's more profit in used cars for two reasons:
  • because it's pretty much impossible for a typical consumer to know what the dealer's cost is on a used car. Consumers generally cannot get into wholesale car auctions, and there is quite a lot of variation in the pricing cited in the publications that cite the value -- wholesale or retail -- of used cars., and
  • out of all the options one can buy on a new car, very few of them have any impact at all on the wholesale value of a car. At wholesale, the things that matter most are automatic transmissions, air conditioning, suspensions, overall quality/integrity of the vehicle (accident free, dig/dent free, structural integrity, mileage, age) and several key options -- essentially most of (but not all) the things you see offered as stand alone options on BMW's website have value. The things you have to buy in a package (and particularly those you cannot get without the package) have no value to speak of at all. Also, the things you see on the accessories page have no value.

    On the wholesale market, cars are seen as outstanding, good, fair, and poor, based on those things I noted above. Beyond that, wholesale buyers and sellers don't care much. For example, not one thing in the M Sport Package is of any value on the wholesale car market, not even the wheels (which are the most expensive thing in the M Sport package), since every car has wheels -- they are either in good condition and contribute thus to an outstanding or good quality assessment of the car, or they aren't -- thus making wheels, assuming the car has some, irrelevant. A car with no wheels is a different story since a car with no wheels is a relatively space-efficient collection of connected, used, un-refurbished/un-reconditioned parts, not a car. Body shops, salvage outfits, and parts manufacturers have uses for that stuff; car dealers don't. The same is essentially true of everything BMW offer as a package. From a value standpoint, better to go with stand-alone options. In every package, one item in there has some value and everything else is there so BMW can put a high price on it and make money.

    So the next time you hear a person who leases their car complain about depreciation, ask them if they have any packages on their car. That's where the depreciation is coming from because the stuff in the package does nothing to boost the wholesale value of the car in the first place. If you just want those things on your car, better to buy your car, maintain it well, and keep it for a long time (10-12 years) than to lease it.
Good luck.

Good values among the packages:
Cold Weather Package -- It's worth it if you want everything in it besides the washers. If you don't want all three of those non-washer elements, buy them as stand alone options.
Technology Package -- For essentially the same price as what nav alone cost, you also get HUD. Nav is something that adds value on the wholesale arena.
Premium Sound Package -- Satellite radio for $100 for a year isn't too bad ($10 more than Sirius' basic lineup if bought outside the dealership) and far cheaper than buying Sirius as a stand alone option. Plus the upgraded sound system also adds value in the eyes of wholesalers.

Packages not worth the ink it takes to print their names:
Premium Package - You do the math. When one could buy comfort access as a stand alone option, BMW priced it at 500. Bottom line: this packages calls upon you to fork over about $250 for a garage door opener and a mirror that dims itself, and one feature you can add yourself via coding (i.e., essentially for free). You can also use coding to obtain several (but admittedly not all) of the comfort access features. As goes the auto dimming mirrors, tinting your windows at 30% will yield the same results and I find 30% tint + auto dimming (my daughter's car) to be too dim to see any details on the car behind you (I like to be able to tell if the car behind me is a cop, although if lights suddenly appeared from nowhere and are rapidly catching up to me or effectively tailgating me, it probably is a cop because normal people don't generally do either of those things -- drive fast enough catch up to me or tailgate me).
M Sport Package - It makes the car look nice, no argument there, but there isn't one thing in this package that'll increase its value as goes the car's future price on the wholesale market. Even the wheels in this package, are of no value at wholesale. The reason for this is that every car has wheels and those wheels either improve (by not being cracked, having little if any curb rash, etc.) the overall assessment of the car's condition and therefore value -- outstanding, good, fair, poor or scrap -- or they don't. The value of the wheels begins and ends at are they simple steel wheels or some nicer type of wheels, but all "nicer types of wheels" are equal at wholesale. The reason for this is that a used car with no wheels isn't a car, it's a relatively space-efficient configuration of connected, un-refurbished, used parts.
I've heard I believe from Scot26 that the F32/F33 will be much more of a driver's car than the F30 but we'll just have to wait and see.
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      06-11-2012, 01:59 PM   #8
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tony. your extraordinary reply should be included into some sort of buying guide. thank you very extremely much! Why do you suggest me to buy a 2010 or 2011 instead of 2009? Yes I am in a market of CPOs(2009 or 2010) or preowned(2011) 335xi coupe. Unfortunately there are only overpriced CPO in St Louis, MO. i.e., Two loaded 335xi coupe CPOs are asked for $37k(33k mile) and $40k(20k mile). I think I can score a 2010 or 2011 in other cities with lower price.

Thank you tony. Your reply has educated me about how to choose the packages a lot!
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      06-11-2012, 03:55 PM   #9
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Tony, why is "Nav is something that adds value on the wholesale arena."?

There's no doubt that it's good to have a built-in NAV in car. But BMW's NAV even doesn't have touchscreen and is much slower in input speed, compared to an $100 Garmin GPS. That is, I can input an address into a Garmin within 30 sec, while a BMW NAV always took me 2 min to play around the wheel-input input system.

If all NAV comes with HUD. I agree to pay higher value for the them together. But I don't understand why does one want to pay few hundred~1k more for NAV in pre-owned arena?
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      06-15-2012, 02:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primase View Post
tony. your extraordinary reply should be included into some sort of buying guide. thank you very extremely much! Why do you suggest me to buy a 2010 or 2011 instead of 2009? Yes I am in a market of CPOs(2009 or 2010) or preowned(2011) 335xi coupe. Unfortunately there are only overpriced CPO in St Louis, MO. i.e., Two loaded 335xi coupe CPOs are asked for $37k(33k mile) and $40k(20k mile). I think I can score a 2010 or 2011 in other cities with lower price.

Thank you tony. Your reply has educated me about how to choose the packages a lot!
I suggested a 2010 or 2011 because dealers don't often like to assign CPO status to one year old (or newer) cars. That isn't to say they won't/don't, but it's a less commonly found thing. Inasmuch as the 335 has had it's share of manufacturing defects, I wouldn't advise anyone to buy one that has but one year left on the standard warranty. (Note: as I said in the email I sent you, the 2009 vehicle you are considering is a clear exception as with sufficiently low mileage, as that car has, the passage of time is little more than exactly that.)

As go the packages, if you are buying a car with the intent of keeping it for 6+ years,, go ahead and buy the packages you want without regard to their lack of resale value. I keep my cars for at least 10 years, by which time the decline in value attributable to the package iis irrelevant in light of the overall decline of the car itself.
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      06-15-2012, 05:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primase
Tony, why is "Nav is something that adds value on the wholesale arena."?

There's no doubt that it's good to have a built-in NAV in car. But BMW's NAV even doesn't have touchscreen and is much slower in input speed, compared to an $100 Garmin GPS. That is, I can input an address into a Garmin within 30 sec, while a BMW NAV always took me 2 min to play around the wheel-input input system.

If all NAV comes with HUD. I agree to pay higher value for the them together. But I don't understand why does one want to pay few hundred~1k more for NAV in pre-owned arena?
You don't have to manually input the address through idrive on 2010 and newer nav-equipped 3 series. Just press the voice command button, say "enter address", and then just say the address w/city and state. Just like that you have your destination set. I've not had any issues using my nav this way - it definitely adds value to me.
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      06-15-2012, 06:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primase View Post
Tony, why is "Nav is something that adds value on the wholesale arena."?
Because it's expensive and adds to the utility/convenience (as opposed to appearance) of the vehicle??? That's my best guess. I don't make the rules, I but play the game. You may want to call Manhiem (sp?) and ask them as they are an automobile wholesaler.

Remember, we're talking about wholesale value, not retail. Accordingly, all navs are created equal. A car either has it or it doesn't. Wholesalers have neither the time nor the interest in determining the relative "goodnes" of this and that navigation system. They tick a box indicating nav is present, or they don't tick that box. The onus is on the consumer to educate him-/herself on the merits of the navigation systems found on the used cars they may buy.
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      06-15-2012, 09:58 PM   #13
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F32 will replace E92 and once the F32 comes out, the prices of the E92 will drop.....

End of story!
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      06-16-2012, 01:10 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post

Indeed, there's a a fair chance, particularly if the new coupe follows the new sedan in being less a driver's car than the e9x ones are, that the e92 will hold a bit more of its value.
So the new F30 is "less of a drivers car..."?
Indeed?

For a seemingly intelligent person, that comment is simply BS.

Is it that boring on the E90 site where real "driving enthusiasts" commiserate about the F30?
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